Battlefield spell + retreating?

[Twan]

Read the other threads on the subject, you'll find some KO posts on the issue.

[Gandalf Parker]

I would also have to make a nit-picky point about such lists.

Lists exist on 4 levels. Each of us listing the things that we feel are "wrong" with the game. A maintained list of such items in the public forums. The list of such items being discussed in the Beta Tester forum (which is not allowed to be posted or discussed in public forums or chats due to the NDA agreement each beta-tester signs). And finally the only real official recognized buglist which would basically be the alpha group (the devs talking between themselves). Please beware of listing things as being officially known and recognized bugs unless there is a post here by Johan or Kristoffer saying so. It is rare that such verification floats down to us and declarations of that type can serve the reverse effect of getting it worked on.

Personally I try to word all of mine as requests until the devs decide to call them bugs.

[K]

I'll let this thread die semi-gracefully, but I'd like to summarize the main points on "battlefield spells + retreat" and MoD:

1.1 Is is a difficult/dangerous tactic to use? Yes.
1.2 Does it have counters that an experienced player can use and would likely be using as a matter of course? Yes.
1.3 Is it especially harmful to thug and SC armies and not others? Yes.
1.4 Does it anger players who fall for it? Yes. Like most effective tactics, it cheeses people off.

2.1 It it considered a bug by the devs? Yes, it does not work as they intended. The board moderator Gandalf Parker considers it a major bug, which is why it is red-listed in the Bug forum.
2.2 Is it important enough to the devs that they've addressed it in the last four patches? No.

3.1 Does the community as a whole believe it should be banned? Probably not, considering that only 7 of the 37 games running on the front page of the Multiplayer forum have any rules regarding it.
3.2 Is it an unwritten rule? There is no way to prove that, so that's an unfounded assumption. Since even the polls that have been done are self-selecting, getting valid data is extremely difficult. Final answer: the data says probably no because there is no supporting data other than conflicting anecdotal evidence.

4.1 Does it fundamentally alter game balance to keep it in? No, though it does take away some of the power of thug and SC armies and forces players to have a more balanced end-game strategy.

5.1 Is K a Devil's Advocate and/or argumentative jerk? Maybe. The jury is still out on both counts.
5.2 Is K a cheater who I can't trust to play with? No. I play by any rules that have been agreed upon at the start of the game. I do get very cheesed when someone who is in the middle of a war with me suddenly says "oh, we have these unwritten rules against the thing you're doing."

[DonCorazon]

Did you include AndeanZorro in your numerical analysis?

Omnirizon said:
Cheats: no using the cheap battlefield spell combos (can't recall them off the top of my head, but I will spell them out if necessary; most people should know what they are and know better any way.)

[K]

DonCorazon said:
Did you include AndeanZorro in your numerical analysis?

Yes.

[DonCorazon]

So you knew he was talking about MoD / retreating?

[Gandalf Parker]

A few points.

I dont maintain the sticky bug list on the forum. I think you mean Edi. I maintain the server list, the server commands wishlist, the map commands wishlist.

Importance isnt the best word when using the last 4 patches as evidence. What has been in the latest patches has been decided more by ease than importance.

I totally agree with you about hating unspoken rules. And I would be against any general decision that such unwritten rules carry much weight. It tends to require reading many different threads on a continual basis. I myself would be fairly likely to fail such unspoken rules.

[K]

DonCorazon said:
So you knew he was talking about MoD / retreating?

Yup. It was counted as part of the 7 out of 37.

[Edi]

K said:
2.1 It it considered a bug by the devs? Yes, it does not work as they intended. The board moderator Gandalf Parker considers it a major bug, which is why it is red-listed in the Bug forum.
2.2 Is it important enough to the devs that they've addressed it in the last four patches? No.

I'll address these two points since they fall directly under stuff I deal with:

2.1 Yes, it is considered a bug. This has been confirmed by both KO and JK. The severity rating of the bug is my estimation of it as the modertaor in charge of managing bug reporting and the shortlist. Not Gandalf's. That obviously does not preclude Gandalf agreeing with me.

2.2 That's a false dilemma fallacy and a red herring. The devs consider it an important bug, but they have not fixed it yet for reasons known only to them. Perhaps it is a difficult bug to fix or perhaps there are other considerations. It is presumptuous of anyone on the forums to make unequivocal statements like that when they do not have access to all the relevant information. Even I do not (though I have access to more than is on the public forum) and I talk to the devs fairly regularly about stuff like this for obvious reasons.

[JimMorrison]

But you see, K's education is failing him right now, and he's not sure how to handle it, Edi, except soldier on.

The forms of rhetoric that he is taught, are meant to bully and impression the 90 IQ members of a jury into believing him. They are never meant to directly address reality, but rather to operate in that grey area between reality and perception.

He's just unwilling to admit that his jedi mind tricks won't work here. Also, he now must maintain that the primary reason the bug has not been fixed, is that our devs do not "consider it important enough", for if he capitulates on that point, his whole argument begins to deflate.


On the other hand, I claim unequivocal victory in this debate. You see, we have direct confirmation that MoD IS in fact a bug. Utilizing bugs for personal gain in considered exploitation - you are using something that is not working properly, to get results beyond what is intended. I think if you polled the Dom3 community on whether or not they support the exploitation of unfixed bugs in public MP games, your answer would be vastly, overwhelmingly, devastatingly -almost- unanimous. I would say it would be 100%, but you can vote however you like on the matter, K, it won't change reality, or anyone's perception of it. <3