Two armies attacking the same province

[Forrest]

Live and learn.

Of course it usualy is my errors that do me in.

Thanks.

[curtadams]

Even when you know about tricks like "move and patrol" it's easy to forget them in the heat of the moment. A couple of changes that would really reduce the chance of a game being destroyed by a simple mistake after hours or days of play:

1) Units moving as a stack move together. If one can't make it, none do. It's a real waste to have to inspect the entire stack's orders after issuing a 2-province move or sea crossing, and that kind of auditing isn't my idea of fun even when I remember.

2) Likewise units in a group should only sneak if the entire group sneaks. This is particularly acute with nations that have lots of sneakies. It's painfully easy once you mix in a few independents to have only half your army show up and get crushed. (Handy tip: stick a non-sneaky troop under every commander. You need to watch for them dying though!)

3) Move and patrol should be default for castles (and maybe everything). Newbies shouldn't have to lose a game or two before realizing that racing your army to defend your castled province doesn't do a lick of good unless you countermand the order to defend the province with a special "defend the province" order which isn't called "defend". [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] Oh yeah, and see #1 to make sure everybody gets there.

[Graeme Dice]

curtadams said:
3) Move and patrol should be default for castles (and maybe everything).

Please don't change this. I never want to fight a battle outside a castle. You will almost always be better off breaking siege the next turn.

[curtadams]

Graeme Dice said:
Please don't change this. I never want to fight a battle outside a castle. You will almost always be better off breaking siege the next turn.

I don't see how you come up with that. If you allow the enemy to seize the province before breaking the siege the next turn you:

lose 2 turns of troop recruitment (one turn will be wiped by the invader, one turn you won't control the provicne)
lose 1 turn of commander recruitment
lose 1 turn of province income
Allow your opponent 1 turn of province income (2 if he cranks the tax)
lose all your PD
lose one turn of army activity
lose the backing of your PD during the battle
risk tax or pillage damage to your province
lose travel through the province - and castles tend to be in important locations
lose the ability to reinforce your sieged army, while he can bring up reinforcements and have them join in the siege.

The only benefit is one more turn of summoning/forging. The only time you'd be better off breaking is if you're facing an army so strong that all your nearby armies, backed by your PD, will lose to his army, but you *can* beat him next turn with what you magic up in that castle the next turn. That's a pretty unusual situation. Unless you're holding back gems (generally a bad idea) I don't see how that's going to happen.

[Graeme Dice]

curtadams said:
lose 2 turns of troop recruitment (one turn will be wiped by the invad
lose 1 turn of commander recruitment
lose 1 turn of province income
Allow your opponent 1 turn of province income (2 if he cranks the tax)

And gain the enormous benefit of tying your opponents army down for at least a turn so that you can destroy it instead of having to chase his army around and never be able to catch it. After all, because of the movement rules, it's impossible to catch an army that constantly moves to new provinces every turn unless you can bring in a second force that's sufficient to destroy it.

lose all your PD

I don't really mind losing the one gold that I spent to get a scouting commander. After all, now I don't have to worry about the province defense being killed and causing my pretender to autorout. The Dom3 morale system is still just as broken in this regard as the Dom2 system.

risk tax or pillage damage to your province

Tax damage to population is inconsequential for a single turn of 200% taxes. Pillage is only a problem if your opponent doesn't want to actually win the game, and would rather throw away his future income to try and kill you now.

lose travel through the province - and castles tend to be in important locations

His army is right there waiting to be attacked. You don't want to travel through that province, and most popular maps don't let you move more than one province anyways thanks to terrain happy mapmakers.

lose the ability to reinforce your sieged army, while he can bring up reinforcements and have them join in the siege.

Armies that move into a province and armies that break siege from inside of the castle attack in the same combat.

The only benefit is one more turn of summoning/forging.

That and the ability to make your opponent sit still for a turn so that you can get around the silly movement rules in dominions that keep armies from ever contacting each other unless they both attempt to move into the same province.

The only time you'd be better off breaking is if you're facing an army so strong that all your nearby armies, backed by your PD, will lose to his army, but you *can* beat him next turn with what you magic up in that castle the next turn. That's a pretty unusual situation. Unless you're holding back gems (generally a bad idea) I don't see how that's going to happen.

Why don't you tell me how you plan to force your opponent to attack the castle in the same turn that you've moved your forces there? It's also not at all uncommon to be able to summon sufficient troops in one turn at an important castle. Especially when holding back gems to wait for the strongest summons possible is the default strategy. If you've wasted your earth gems on cave drakes, I'll be quite happy to destroy them with clockwork horrors.

[curtadams]

Graeme Dice said:
And gain the enormous benefit of tying your opponents army down for at least a turn so that you can destroy it instead of having to chase his army around and never be able to catch it. After all, because of the movement rules, it's impossible to catch an army that constantly moves to new provinces every turn unless you can bring in a second force that's sufficient to destroy it.

He's not tied down at all. You can leave a sieged province just as well as an ordinary one. The AI won't leave but the attacks are very predictable.

I don't really mind losing the one gold that I spent to get a scouting commander. After all, now I don't have to worry about the province defense being killed and causing my pretender to autorout. The Dom3 morale system is still just as broken in this regard as the Dom2 system.

You're really missing something if you're not using PD. For one thing, you have to be constantly running around to squish all those dang invading independents. For another, you're losing a great military tool. PD is quite respectable militarily until rather late in the game. Solo combatants are generally rather fragile; you can always back them up with a bank of archers if you're having autorout problems. In any case, even if your SC routs defending the province, he just ends up next door and you can break the siege anyway. You haven't lost anything from trying to defend.

Tax damage to population is inconsequential for a single turn of 200% taxes. Pillage is only a problem if your opponent doesn't want to actually win the game, and would rather throw away his future income to try and kill you now.

If he's not going to squish you promptly it's not "his" income. It's good strategy to injure an opponent. Much better to control a damaged province than to have somebody else control an undamaged one!

His army is right there waiting to be attacked. You don't want to travel through that province, and most popular maps don't let you move more than one province anyways thanks to terrain happy mapmakers.

You do want to travel through if you want to defend or reinforce other provinces. I normally play random maps, and I really wouldn't want to play on a map that was all forest/swamp anyway.

Armies that move into a province and armies that break siege from inside of the castle attack in the same combat.

I know I saw double attacks in Dom2. Did they change that?

That and the ability to make your opponent sit still for a turn so that you can get around the silly movement rules in dominions that keep armies from ever contacting each other unless they both attempt to move into the same province.

But he's not tied down. Incidentally, you can interfere with somebody when he's moving into your terrritory. Only if he retreats can he guarantee moving first. And if he retreats, you're winning.

Why don't you tell me how you plan to force your opponent to attack the castle in the same turn that you've moved your forces there? It's also not at all uncommon to be able to summon sufficient troops in one turn at an important castle. Especially when holding back gems to wait for the strongest summons possible is the default strategy. If you've wasted your earth gems on cave drakes, I'll be quite happy to destroy them with clockwork horrors.

You don't summon much early stuff, but once you get to level 5 or 6 you burn through gems as fast as you can. I don't agree with super summons being common. With the gold upped, even when you get to clockwork horrors and the like you just don't make enough to win. A squad of clockwork horrors is very nice but it won't even come close to wiping out an army. Besides that, most of the time your summoning squad will be in a different castle anyway.

[Graeme Dice]

curtadams said:
He's not tied down at all. You can leave a sieged province just as well as an ordinary one.

If he leaves, then his attack accomplished absolutely nothing but to raise unrest by about 30. You'll automatically take the province back next turn.

You're really missing something if you're not using PD.

Yes, I'm missing out on having my supercombatants autorout.

For one thing, you have to be constantly running around to squish all those dang invading independents.

Or I could just not take misfortune.

Solo combatants are generally rather fragile; you can always back them up with a bank of archers if you're having autorout problems.

Putting archers in the battle means that the routing will happen after 12 turns once they start to run forwards into melee.

In any case, even if your SC routs defending the province, he just ends up next door and you can break the siege anyway.

Not in general, since any competent player will also try and attack any province your forces might retreat to. Take a medusa as an example. She can kill 500 conventional troops per battle without taking a single hit with very cheap equipment. Put her with a small force and she'll rout as soon as the troops die.

I know I saw double attacks in Dom2. Did they change that?

Double attacks are caused by magical movement. Triple attacks are caused by the combination of magical attacks, a siege break, and then a storming of the fortress.

But he's not tied down. Incidentally, you can interfere with somebody when he's moving into your terrritory. Only if he retreats can he guarantee moving first. And if he retreats, you're winning.

Have you ever tried chasing an army around a closed loop? They are not moving into the same province, so there is no combat between the two armies.

Besides that, most of the time your summoning squad will be in a different castle anyway.

Why? Every province with a castle is going to be recruiting a mage every turn, so the only difference between castles is how long ago they were built and whether it's your capital for some nations.