OOBs way out of whack?

[Deputy]

narwan said:
Deputy, you are consistently mistaken the ability to fire a SMG over distance with chance of hitting something. Despite plenty of indication both by actual users of these types of weapons and historical accounts of their use you keep to your own strict view.

Please understand that this game is a model of reality and not reality itself and as such has to incorporate many different aspects. One of these is that rounds fired by smg's can travel quite some distance and still do harm. Hitting the specific target you aimed at is something else entirely. The game gives smg's a range below the distance the rounds can travel and do harm, so it's already limiting them more than 'reality'. And at more than 1 hex range they are inaccurate in the game.
So if you want to be taken seriously here, do the work. Set up test scenario's and show us that smg's consistently do too much damage against targets at ranges of 100m or more. Make sure you include rifles and automatic rifles in your tests to show the relative effectiveness of smg's.

As a playtester for this game I've done plenty of those sorts of tests myself. And I must say, I recognize very little of what you claim is wrong with the game.

Well all I can give is my actual, hands-on personal experience with the Thompson Submachinegun in a real world situation. If folks want to play a game based in Fantasy Island or with comic book realities, that is THEIR choice. I can understand folks who like to play as Soviet or Finnish troops, and the strong emphasis they place on their favorite weapons. But saying that a 9MM PISTOL cartridge or a 7.62X25 Soviet pistol cartridge can be fired at ranges of 500 meters effectively is just plain nonsense. Instead of relying on info that may be biased for whatever reason, why not just do an internet search of the M31, PPSh, Thompson, or Sten guns and see what the information is there. Look for maximim effective range. I think you will see, as I did, that it shows less than 200 meters. The info is available from numerous reliable sources online, and most all of them agree with each other. Forget about test scenarios, as they are already incorrect with the current settings that exist.

Dep

[Mobhack]

I think you will see, as I did, that it shows less than 200 meters.

3 hexes is 150 metres, which is less than 200 metres (4 hexes).

Time to end this circular argument, you have your views and can edit your OOB set to whatever you feel is correct, with the Mobhack editor, should you wish.

Cheers
Andy

[Deputy]

Mobhack said:

3 hexes is 150 metres, which is less than 200 metres (4 hexes).

Time to end this circular argument, you have your views and can edit your OOB set to whatever you feel is correct, with the Mobhack editor, should you wish.

Cheers
Andy

Roger that!!!

Dep...salutes and heads for the OOB Editing room

[DRG]

And PLEASE don't forget to read the GG before you do so we don't have any further remarks like "Since each hex is 250 meters across ".... with two paragraphs of augments to support the flawed idea......... OK?

Also, Narwan AND PatG AND Marek_Tucan AND I have said the game results you claim to have seen are WAY out of whack with what everyone experiences. PatG suggested you " try a complete delete and reinstall " It is an excellent suggestion because NOBODY and I mean NOBODY ( but you ) thinks ........" the OOBs slanted so much at an Allied advantage in WinSPWW2 that altering the Preferences makes no difference whatsoever"

So , I would highly recommend that you delete your existing install and do new one. This has helped people in the past when things don't jive with what everyone else sees.

OK?

Don

[PanzerBob]

Whew, what a read. I for one don't think the OOB's are "out of whack". I've changed the odd thing for example increasing the HE kills points for the MG42 a couple points. However, besides Equipment and Units I have created myself, I have found little need for change.

As DRG has repeated and with great patience I might add, a lot of problems seem to arise based on how the player perceives the scale and how the players own tactical abilities are honed.

Many factors go into one shot from an SMG for example:
-Is it the Sqds primary weapon, or secondary (which means one SMG).
-Location of shooter(s) open, trees, dug in, moving, Buildings etc.
-Location of target, as mentioned plus elevation, same hex, etc.
-Type of troops.
-Leadership.
-Morale
-Experience.
-Any suppression.

Plus others I didn’t think of I’m sure

I wonder sometimes how many people who play this game, have played board games. The great ones could take some time to figure out all the factors involved in one shot, ever before the die were cast. Small campaign games could take months to play, and forget about fighting one battle in an evening. Saving the game meant putting it under lock and key so the kids, pets or even your spouse didn’t knock the board or worst yet dump it on the floor. Not to mention trying to find someone to game with and had a room they could shut off from the world for months or years.

This to me has always been the ultimate beauty of this game since it’s DOS days in 1994 IIRC. Since those days I’m sure thousands of upgrades and changes have taken place. At first by the paid devotees, then by many named and I’m sure nameless people for the love of the game. And yet we can still change hundreds if not thousands of things ourselves if we choose.

Steel Panthers Rules, I love the Game, and hey if something bugs you, YOU CAN change it, sometimes it takes time, but trust me it’s worth it.

Hope I didn’t go ranty.

Prosit, Panzer Bob

[Marek_Tucan]

PanzerBob said:
I wonder sometimes how many people who play this game, have played board games.

OT, but when I was small I made some makeshift rules (including D6) for vicious battles with 1/72 stuff (incl. soldiers) on the floor of my room And then came the Steel Panthers Took me a while to start enjoying them (was way slower and more demanding in tbrain department than Dune 2) but then I caught on...

[chuckfourth]

Hi Mobhack.
Its not my world view its how these units were organised
have a look at
http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/012_...brig-tank.html
it shows one SMG coy, 2 rifle coys.
here it is again in text from
http://theeasternfront.co.uk/Infantr...rydivision.htm
"Of the three rifle Companies, one was a submachine gun Company which rode with the tanks and two were lorry borne rifle Companies." ie from my first reference and from your reference we can see that all the LMGs are in the two lorry bourne coys.
and
"The submachine gun Company was comprised of a Company HQ and three rifle Platoons, each formed from a Platoon HQ and three 8-man squads, all riflemen being equipped with the PPsh-41 sub machine gun. From 1943 onwards, the number of men in the rifle squad was increased to ten."
From
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/..._battalion.htm
"There is no debate over their -SMG coy- transport. They were the Desant troops; they rode on the tanks.
Every man in the -SMG- Company carried the PPsh 41 SMG, there being no room for other support weapons;."
ie no room for weapons like LMGs antitank mines molotovs etc.

So we see that the tank desent squads are not the same thing as the SMG squads you mention. The SMG squads (with LMGs) travel in Lorries. The tank desant troops or tank rider coy (SMG only) travel on the tanks.
The two rifle coys operate just like the German truck bourne grenadiers ie independantly if need be. The tank desant troopps are different, they are tied directly to the tanks.

So in your OOB you have grouped both the lorrybourne rifle coy and the tank desant coy squads under the "tank desent coy". The Tank desant coy should actually have only one option, a squad of only SMGs. the other squads belong in your "Motor rifle coy" formation. The current SMG/LMG tank desant squad needs to be moved into the Motor rifle coy as a selection in the "infantry" section, post 43.
As for 'aquiring' LMGs a whole coy doesnt just suddenly aquire a LMG per squad, soemone has to find ammo for all these weapons and spare parts/barrels mags etc etc etc.
Best Regards Chuck.

[Mobhack]

Chuck

I may consider your input, should I ever feel the need to edit the Soviet OOBs.

Andy

[Deputy]

PanzerBob said:
Whew, what a read. I for one don't think the OOB's are "out of whack". I've changed the odd thing for example increasing the HE kills points for the MG42 a couple points. However, besides Equipment and Units I have created myself, I have found little need for change.

As DRG has repeated and with great patience I might add, a lot of problems seem to arise based on how the player perceives the scale and how the players own tactical abilities are honed.

Many factors go into one shot from an SMG for example:
-Is it the Sqds primary weapon, or secondary (which means one SMG).
-Location of shooter(s) open, trees, dug in, moving, Buildings etc.
-Location of target, as mentioned plus elevation, same hex, etc.
-Type of troops.
-Leadership.
-Morale
-Experience.
-Any suppression.

Plus others I didn’t think of I’m sure

I wonder sometimes how many people who play this game, have played board games. The great ones could take some time to figure out all the factors involved in one shot, ever before the die were cast. Small campaign games could take months to play, and forget about fighting one battle in an evening. Saving the game meant putting it under lock and key so the kids, pets or even your spouse didn’t knock the board or worst yet dump it on the floor. Not to mention trying to find someone to game with and had a room they could shut off from the world for months or years.

This to me has always been the ultimate beauty of this game since it’s DOS days in 1994 IIRC. Since those days I’m sure thousands of upgrades and changes have taken place. At first by the paid devotees, then by many named and I’m sure nameless people for the love of the game. And yet we can still change hundreds if not thousands of things ourselves if we choose.

Steel Panthers Rules, I love the Game, and hey if something bugs you, YOU CAN change it, sometimes it takes time, but trust me it’s worth it.

Hope I didn’t go ranty.

Prosit, Panzer Bob

Well I did the full removal, re-install and patch and I STILL think some weapons abilities are out of whack, along with the Preferences adjustment. And I'm grateful that I can edit the OOB to get them closer to what I think they should be.

As to my background, I am an old geezer (age 58) that started out on Avalon Hill WW2 board games back in the 60s. When Steel Panthers came out for computers, I was in 7th heaven. Gobbled it up along with Steel Panthers Modern Battles and the third version with Brigade-sized units (which I wasn't too crazy about). After that I grabbed the Talonsoft East Front and West Front comp games. I wish those dang things would run on WinXP, but everything I tried, which was about EVERYTHING you could do short of re-installing Win98 with a dual boot system, didn't work.
I bought Steel Panthers: World at War a few years ago, and other than the occasional crash to desktop and graphics driver issues, was an EXCELLENT sim. Most all of the problems have been corrected on it now. WinSPWW2 and WinSPMBT I recently purchased. Of the two, I prefer the modern battles. Just seems to have fewer "issues" with them as far as OOB is concerned. I will adjust the OOB of WinSPWW2 and over time get it to the way I like it. No problemo. Not sure what to do about the Preferences thing.

Dep

[PanzerBob]

Good Day, Deputy

First off Sir, I hope I didn't come off as insulting to you. My comments were meant generally. Even though you have 12 years on me your gaming background sure seems similar to mine, BoB being my first game I owned and then in to succession of AH games, then into ASL and my last obsession being MBT when Steel Panthers appeared.

I just read though everything again, and I just don't seem to have these problems. OR Maybe I'm working around them without a second thought these days, I play SPWWII a lot. I generally have my own SOP's for use of Infantry Weapons, MGs I expect suppression only, Rifles and AR's I try to limit them to no shots before 300m and even then I will try to wait until the enemy closes, Long Range AT, half range closer if possible. Infantry also try to make sure they in position several turns before having to engage. These SOP's are only Plan A of course. Just a glimpse of my tactics.

As mentioned I've increased MG42's to HE 10, decreases PIAT's to 100m, Bazookas and Panzershrecks to 200m. I decreased these two because of historical engagements ranges and the AI seems to use them like AT Guns instead of close in crewed AT rocket launchers.

Does this shed any light in your dilemmas?

Prosit!