Recruitable Mage Rebalance - seeking comments

[PDF]

Well, I mostly agree on the idea of making mages more expensive, but I'm not sure the main problem is the cost itself, but rather has to do with :
- The paths the mage gets : a caelian Air mage, at same levels, is vastly superior to a TC Water mage or an Ulm smith;
- The fact that the mage is or not capitol-restricted - the case of Caelum vs Abysia or Mictlan is telling;
- The more or less flexibility given by the randoms and their level. For example Mystics are very good, but Celestial masters are crappy.

But I've no clue as to how correct this ...

[Boron]

Imho you should balance each mage per hand . The +20% Cost increase is wrong for some mages .
As former posters said the standard Abysian mages like Athamet Salamander and Athamet Dragon are for my taste even in Vanilla way to expensive , the Pan should not be made more expensive at least etc. .

On the other hand Sages , Seraphs , Arch Seraphs should be made more expensive , maybe also the Theurg .
Most other mages are imo fine as they are because they don't have that deadly abilities or are already capitol only or rather expensive .

[Edi]

Cherry, you need to redo the Oceanian mages to make sure you get them right. The data on them in the Unit DB is from November 18, and there were changes made before the Oceania mod became public. The DB is due for an update for them as well as adding the bugfixes, but I've not gotten around to doing it yet.

Edi

[Scott Hebert]

Cherry, I have a very long list (in fact, a laundry list) of changes that need to be made. If I could, I request that you focus on independent mages, since I hope to have my National Commander mod out within a week.

Anyway. Getting back to my thread...

[Edit: Cherry, I do recall (I wish I had my old files; I had done all of this already) that the Circle Master is very undercosted, and the Ice Druid and Sea Father are overcosted.]

[TheSelfishGene]

Actually its an admirable task your about to attempt; but one that i think is wrongheaded.

The problem with magic in Dominions 2 is not that its more powerful than conventional units; after all its supposed to be. The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.

There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2 Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.

Now if you want to emphasise conventional troops you need to balance down; if you like magic, than balance up.

In other words, IMO as far as cost and everything, mages are fine. What is not fine are the summons and spells some of them can cast.

[Scott Hebert]

I disagree with your assumption that Dominions 2 is about magic and mages. In the game, Magic is a tool, just like any other. It should be balanced against all the other tools you have available.

Just because current game-balance requires a switch-over from recruited troops to summoned troops does not mean that it is always a requirement.

After my national commander analysis, I plan to try my hand at a summoned commander analysis, to see if they can be similarly re-balanced.

[Tuidjy]

TheSelfishGene said:
The problem is that out of 500 spells, trying to make 475 of them work for you will cost you the game, while 25 of them are so powerful they can win almost irregardless of what your opponent does.

Regardless of what you mean by 'irregardless', when you have 25 spells that
can each win the game, you have balance. Even someone who is hoarding,
madcastling, wrathing, ghostriding, teleporting around, mass enslaving, etc...
will have a hard time against someone doing the same.

There was a contest in a previous post about an SC competition, but the winning SC apparently won because they used a Mind Control type spell since the SCs weren't marked as Pretenders. One player commented that "you just found a loophole and won the game with it", and that pretty much describes multiplayer Dom2

If all the SC had been pretenders, 'Soul Slay' would have achieved the exact same
effect, except Yvelina would not have had half a dozen bodyguards in the seventh
battle. If my contestant had not taken the gargoyle out with 'Petrify', Yvelina
would have had lost her first fight. In a multiplayer game, one has no excuse
for failing for a trick twice.

Find the most absurdly broken spell/summons and run with it, while everyone else is tooling around wondering if flails are better than axes. Not that you can blame them, its a complicated game and it takes time to find these broken abilities, but broken they are.

Right, and ancient warfare was obviously broken because anyone who was tooling
around wondering whether obsydian is better than flint would have had a hard
time fighting off a roman legion.

You know, I suggest one simple test. I challenge you to a simple contest.
You will claim one strategy and I will not use it in the first game. In the
second game, you will choose an additional one. The point will be to see how
long it would take you to win.

[TheSelfishGene]

So Wrathful skies is fair? I've beaten Wrathful Sky casters in a multiplayer game (an Air Queen), but it cost me my whole army of devils (which are hardly weak units themselves). Utterdark is fair? Its the big red WIN GAME button. False Horror is fair? Wow, its -10 fatigue and 1 path; dragonflies take -100 fatigue and 1 nature gem. Vine Ogres are fair? I mean they cost the same as Vine Men, how could you even defend them? (aside from being almost the only Nature thing worth a flip in Multi).

There are previous discussions about buffing 'low level' summons, and how the better players wouldn't even touch them , hording them gems for Summons X. So their conclusion was to buff the low level summons. 5 gems for a Scorpion is fine; 10 gems for a Undead, 20 armor, 42hp, Bane Blade thug is NOT fine. Its not that the previous summons is bad, its that things like the Banelord are simply too good.

Please take into context this thread's purpose: to rebalance mages. What i was saying was that 1) most mages prices are acceptable when you calculate magic paths/cost, and 2) those that seem cheap for their value are so because they are able to cast an overpowered spell/summons. And thus, leading me to conclude that it would be better to adjust the spell/summon than the caster.

You can change balance more towards summons or more towards conventional troops - common knowledge is that, basically, all conventional troops are crap, its only a matter of time when. Because everyone wants to spam temples and castles, that 'when' is pretty damn soon after the start of the game. Since Saber Cherry made a mod just before this one trying to make conventional troops more effective, and this mod is increasing caster cost, i figured a better solution is to tone down the overpowered magics and summons.

I've no love for multi Dom2 anymore, although i had fun while it lasted, so i'm not inclided to accept your contest. Although, i'm not exactly certain what it would prove in any event. I ban WISH, you spam GHOST RIDERS, or whatever. Boy, was i wrong!... or something.