Cohen Mod 0.2

[Peter Ebbesen]

While I, too, am staggered by the highpowered Moloch with his inherent fireshield 18 and his Fire 4, which makes getting a L9 Fire blessing cost only 120 instead of 168 (minimum for a L9 blessing for all other pretenders, i.e. equivalent to an entire extra scale), there is another pretender I am even more stumped by..

MASTER ALCHEMIST: Named "Arcane Blacksmith", Forge Bonus 40, Fire 2 Earth 2, HP 19, Enc 1, Prec 12, Cost 60.

Forge Bonus 40?? Add a hammer and you have 65, work at the steel ovens (if you find them) and you have 85. Forge the Hammer of the Forge Lord or kill the Cyclops (if you can get them) and you have 90. Pretty neat considering the maximum applied is 80. Time to mass produce incinerating rods, robes of invulnerability, or other quality stuff. (If, against all odds, you get FoA up, your pretender can make 80 gem items for 24 gems barehanded, 14 gems with a dwarven hammer, and 8 gems with the Hammer of the Forge Lord.)

...Of course, you would probably be better off playing a blood nation (blood Ulm or ordinary Ulm blooded) and have been forging blood contracts for (1-0.65)*80 slaves = 28 slaves per round since round 10-15 or so. A not insubstantial saving in cost. No dedicated blood nation can compete.

...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?

Anyhow, good luck with your mod. It is always nice to see somebody being creative, even when it appears to be of the dangerously unstable kind of creativity. Remember, so long as you have fun with your work, the more power to you: That is what is most important.

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.

[Huzurdaddi]

Considering other peoples criticism is only necessary if you expect to find players who will agree to play your mod in MP.

How bang on is that? Nicely done.

[Cohen]

Sadly in fact I'd put that pretender to Ulm Default or Iron Faith only, but this is not feasible.
Perhaps 40 is too much, and should be down to 25 (to a master smith level), but I aimed to give Ulm a boost in forging.
True, if used by BF theme, it could be an exploit because they don't lack of the magic inflexibility of common Ulm.

This is a good statement Peter, but I'd ever doubt if I put a "house condition" that this pretender could be taken only by IF and Default Ulm will be applied.
I'll consider to reduce that forge bonus.

And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
And yes, I aim to use my mod in MP.

If you aim to use your mod in mp you seriously need to rethink the massive empowering you are giving Abysia. I dont understand how you can say you don't think your boosting Abysia when you are lowering the costs of every mage, boosting their non humanbred infantrys stats and making the apprentice non capitol only...what else would you call this? If you are seeking to do a overall balance mod you should consider which races are more powerful overall, and not just from your point of view. A good way to do that would be to look at the power rankings poll: Post#297066 where nearly everybody but you ranked Abysia in the top 5. A top 5 nation does not need any boosting in a global balance mod, the nations like Tien Chi and BE Ermor need boosting. When you give massive boosts to a nation thats already generally viewed as one of the most powerful in the game it appears to be nothing but blatant favoritism, compounded by the fact that you are known for playing this nation more than any other. Abysia is one of my favorite nations, but if you include these outrageous changes in your mod, don't expect me to join any games with your mod in it.

[Huzurdaddi]

I think Cohen does not realize the power of Blood magic. It it a school of magic availiable to only a select few nations and with good reason, it is awesome.

Blood is the best summoning school in the game. The only path which comes close is Death. Blood contains 11 full fledged SC's. It contains, perhaps, the best overall unit in the game the devil. It contains the only immortal unit. It has an excellent summon in the vampire.

It's just a great school. There is a reason why people who stumble upon sages really hope that they get blood as their random.

Abysia does *not* need help at the moment. The Moloch is insane. Zen's pretender mod pretty much addresses the pretender problems in the game ( although I think that the poor humans are still underpowered ).

[Kel]

Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

[Zen]

Kel said:
Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

Oh, Semi-useless. The GK isn't powerful because he can be a site searcher, forger and SC, but that he requires multiple paths to be a SC, has a host of intrinsic abilities, 0 Enc, low path cost.

If you want to argue that because it allows a secondary function to a SC, then I will agree that it does indeed. I don't see too many humans with only one eye and can be rendered unable to cast rituals, or site search because they gain the "lost an eye" affliction.

Your milage may vary, but putting a forge bonus on a unit that can't take a multitude of paths is potent if used properly, it is not *as* potent as one that can buy many more paths for cheaper.

Of course if Cohen wants to use that as a base, he may want to rethink the bonus on the Cyclops, and apply a lesser forge bonus in order to have the "I UBER FORGE I HU-MAN" logic and have the cap not quite be 40% but instead 25%.

Edit: This doesn't quite compare though to the fact that the Alchemist gets 4 paths, costs 60 and has a forge bonus. Though I'm sure it make sense to someone.

[Cohen]

You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

So you'll get more gold and gem because you've more income (both gold and gem).

Blood isn't that strong. Death has Banelords, Wraithlords, and Tartarians, plus a very good battle magic.
Even with the Vamp Lord without summon allies, and with the raised cost of Drain Life weapons the SC value should be lesser.

About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

Alchemist (now Arcane Blacksmith) has poor combat skill, and hp. The real issue is to give that 40% forge bonus to Black Forest Ulm, that really doesn't deserve it.

[Kel]

I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

[Kel]

Peter Ebbesen said:
...Please believe me. Giving a pretender a forge bonus is giving him a massive boost in power. If done for thematic reasons (though it is not obvious why an alchemist should get such a bonus. A smith, yes, but an alchemist?), might I suggest a smaller one of 10%?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with the balance of a forge bonus but, to be fair, the Conceptual Pretenders mod that Cohen used as a basis has a 25% forge bonus on the cyclops, a viable SC with built in 3E hammer building. I haven't even looked at Cohen's mod but if a 25% forge bonus on an SC is ok, a 40% forge bonus on a human wouldn't seem that much of a stretch (though it should definitely be taken into account in pretender cost).

- Kel