Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[mivayan]

I noticed the theory that trampling is a handy rock-scissors-paper style counter to F9W9 helhirdings. So I made a test.

Side one: F9W9 bless.
One holy3 priest, to cast divine blessing and smite. I wont count his cost. 40 helhirdings: 3000 gold, 480 resources.

Side two: F9W9 bless which doesn't matter
One holy3 priest, casting smite for symmetry's sake. I wont count his cost. 100 EA ctis lizard chariots: 5000 gold, 2600 resources.

No commanders were harmed in this test.
Fight one: chariots defend, 29 out of 40 helhirdings die, 95 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight two: chariots defend, 16 out of 40 helhirdings die, 98 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight three: chariots defend, 14 out of 40 helhirdings die, 88 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight four: chariots defend, 5 out of 40 helhirdings die, 75 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight five: chariots defend, 39 out of 40 helhirdings die, 54 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
In this last fight, 2925 gold were lost for helhirdings. 2700 gold lost for chariots.

So, for only 167% of the cost and 5400% of the recources, you might once in a while destroy a F9W9 helhirding army with lizard chariots. Not worth calling a counter.

[UninspiredName]

Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers.

[FrankTrollman]

Deleted

[Zebion]

NT just hides behind the fact the game should have one powerful nation. The nation can be modded easily in singleplayer. Multiplayer has hell trying to get everyone to use one mod,even one that everyone agrees

[Inigo Montoya]

FrankTrollman said:
That test doesn't really show anything, since Chariots are part of a larger strategy. A single trample effect causes small amounts of damage to everything trampled, so it ends glamor effects. That means that the big scary "they all have glamor!" is over and they are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows.

Mr Trollman,

How about you set up a battle and run it? So far, everyone who has tried to fight a vanjarl + 25 van army has demonstrated they are overpowered. Please don't talk about your theories. Let's see some evidence. Feel free to utilize your level 2 AOE spells because I think that is quite reasonable. How about using Arcoscephale MA (Old Kingdom)? They have both elephant tramplers and chariots for you to choose, plus a wide variety of magic for your level 2 AOE's.

The pattern here has been that after people try testbeds, they come around to seeing that vans are overpowered.

[Foodstamp]

I would like to see FrankTrollman do a test as well. He has an incredible grasp of how magic works in Dom3, or atleast he seems to in the nooby game where he was pwning everyone.

I think if there is a person that can find a definate magical way to counter a heim in the early part of the game, it would be FrankTrollman.

[PDF]

FrankTrollman said:
That test doesn't really show anything, since Chariots are part of a larger strategy. A single trample effect causes small amounts of damage to everything trampled, so it ends glamor effects. That means that the big scary "they all have glamor!" is over and they are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows.

You and I are looking at different spell lists.

Evocation 2:
Fire Blast
Sulphur Haze
Flare
Cold Blast
Shockwave

Alteration 2:
Earthmeld

Construction 2:
Ice Pebble Staff
Doom Glaive

Thaumaturgy 1:
Dessication
Frighten

Blood 2:
Blood Burst
Agony

All of these spells ignore Glamor. And Defense. The Helhirding is just a man against any of that. A man who costs 75 gold.

Sure, when you get up to Evocation 6 you get stuff like Magma Eruption that blows huge holes in the Vanir line at minimal cost, but even with just level 2 Research levels there's stuff you can do.

And if people are throwing around 40 Vanir, you'll have some crazy battle magic. Remember that larger units favor the side being trampled over the side trampling, because tramplers end up in the middle of the squad.

But larger armies also don't support the cause of the "Helheim is broken!" peoples, because Helheim can't produce large groups of their major units before the magical counters start coming in fast and hard.

-Frank

That seem really more theory than practice : producing 3-5 Vans/turn the *heims can field 40 vans or HH from turn 10 or so, so really very few magic has been researched by anyone. Maybe one path to 3 and another to 1, 2 at best..

Then you have tramplers, that kills mirror images, and the Vans "are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows". But you still have to find something able to overcome 24 def (swords), and a way to protect your archers from 39-speed charges. What can hit 24-def units and is available turn 10-15 ? Nothing...

Even then you're talking of "Vanir lines". But Vans don't line up, usually I use 6-Vans groups quite largely spread out, using map borders, with groups set to attack archers and rear. With their amazing speed, they are quite rarely, if ever, grouped, and will just avoid a good part of enemmy army before wreaking havoc on the rear. Big AoE Evocs, even if available will usually kill more friendlies than Vanir in such a configuration.

Lastly noone in the "non-overpowered" side ever mentioned AFAIK that Vanheim *has* magic, and potent one ! Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily, and as soona s they hit Evo-2 Shockwave is awfully effective with Vanjarls, and I don't even mention the obvious LB, then OL and TS !

[Aseth]

Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind

[PDF]

Aseth said:

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind

Sure, I even forgot to mention it ...

[Inigo Montoya]

UninspiredName said:
Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers.

The problem is they are twice as expensive as chariots, only compounding the disparity.