Umbrals & Agartha Balance (v3.08)

Ygorl · #1 May 5th, 2007, 09:31 PM

For their cost, the research required to summon them, and the single-nation limitation, they'd better be superior to black servants! Umbrals are nice, no doubt, but I've never seen them make or break a game. Keep in mind that you only get one per casting, so to amass a horde you need a lot of mage time (and at least in the early age you either need expensive mages or 4x that many cheap mages). While they're powerful, and a great value if you just look at gem cost, I don't think they remotely overpower the nation. I don't even think they dramatically out-cool other things Agartha can do - for the same gem cost, I can get five magma children, which aren't too shabby on their own, or a big earth elemental that can trample all over unfriendly chaff-mobs. The only cheap EA Agarthan mages that don't have a useful summon, actually, are the WE guys. I guess they can research or something.
If you restrict your attention to things you can summon with death gems, even, I don't think Umbrals are that obvious a choice. Say you've got five Oracles of the Dead and a bunch of death gems. You could summon a pile of Longdead Horsemen and with the rest of the oracles do a bunch of research or forge some things or preach a lot or lead some armies, or else for the same gem cost summon five Umbrals and do nothing else. It's not clear to me that the second choice is always or even usually better.

MaxWilson · #2 May 5th, 2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Ygorl said:
If you restrict your attention to things you can summon with death gems, even, I don't think Umbrals are that obvious a choice. Say you've got five Oracles of the Dead and a bunch of death gems. You could summon a pile of Longdead Horsemen and with the rest of the oracles do a bunch of research or forge some things or preach a lot or lead some armies, or else for the same gem cost summon five Umbrals and do nothing else. It's not clear to me that the second choice is always or even usually better.

While Oracles will generally have something better to do with their time, they're capital-only. 25% of Earth Readers will be E1D1 and can summon umbrals, which means you can set up an umbral factory without interrupting your Oracles. I don't know if that affects your argument.

-Max

mivayan · #3 May 5th, 2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

MaxWilson said:
While Oracles will generally have something better to do with their time, they're capital-only. 25% of Earth Readers will be E1D1 and can summon umbrals, which means you can set up an umbral factory without interrupting your Oracles. I don't know if that affects your argument.

-Max

Oracles are the only way (except perhaps summoning spectres via pretender-made booster items) to get umbrals in MA...

so EA balance is more interesting. Cost 2 or 8 is meaningless when discussing Gift of reason, and presumably items too.

Shovah32 · #4 May 5th, 2007, 11:24 PM

I probably wouldnt GoR them(well maybe in single player) but i thought i should point out how superior they are to the black servants.

danm · #5 May 6th, 2007, 05:43 AM

GoR'd Umbrals can, with some reasonably easy to forge equipment, become pretty decent low-cost SCs. I'm sure there are better chassis for the end-game, but probably not many that can compete in terms of gem cost and low research levels required.

Even so, I really don't think they qualify as overpowered, Particularly in the context of the nation that can summon them. They are definately GOOD. They didn't NEED amphibious, though thematically, it makes sense... (why would the ghosts of ancient pale ones suddenly forget how to breathe water?)

As mentioned by previous posters, they are not all that easy to mass, and are not a rush threat. By the time an agarthan player is able to produce them in any quantity, others should be able to come up with an answer.

Additionally, I always find death gems in very short supply in EA and MA. Skull Staves and Skull mentors eat a LOT of gems. Mages are expensive (even the "cheap" ones), and with agarthas "quirky" national troops, it can be difficult to expand quickly.

My feeling is, that if an agartha player has gotten to the point where he can manage to produce Umbrals in any significant quantity, then gosh durn it he DESERVES those yummy hunks of etherial beefcake.

I don't have a lot of MP experience, so there may well be ways to exploit umbrals such that there is no reasonable counter, but I've not stumbled on it yet, and not for lack of trying.

Meglobob · #6 May 6th, 2007, 06:44 AM

Quote:

danm said:My feeling is, that if an agartha player has gotten to the point where he can manage to produce Umbrals in any significant quantity, then gosh durn it he DESERVES those yummy hunks of etherial beefcake.

I don't have a lot of MP experience, so there may well be ways to exploit umbrals such that there is no reasonable counter, but I've not stumbled on it yet, and not for lack of trying.

On reflection and having read other peoples posts with my experience of MP play I agree 100% with the above points.

Leave umbrals exactly as they are. Only Agartha gets them and there are no signs whatsoever of Agartha being unbalanced. I agree with Edi when he said this is a non-issue.

It might be different if the spell was available to every nation.

If its not broke, don't fix it!

Endoperez · #7 May 6th, 2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Meglobob said:
Leave umbrals exactly as they are. Only Agartha gets them and there are no signs whatsoever of Agartha being unbalanced. I agree with Edi when he said this is a non-issue.

Early and Middle Agarthas, at least. Ktonian Necromancers alone make LA Agartha a pretty good nation, and they have cheaper Earth/Death mages as well.