OT: Narf has gone looney and wants to GM.(Edited2)

[Jack Simth]

We Don't... but NPC's level up arbitrarily. It's not really worth worrying.

Let's see... assuming, for a moment, that the guards at the front of the cave were CR 5 individually, that the Fireball and Lightning traps we defeated were CR 4, the Alarm trap was CR 1, that rescuing the guard from the enchantment was CR 4 (it did require two 3rd level spells - which is basically about 1/4th of daily resources), and that causing Ransar to retreat was CR 6 (-3 to the encounter because of favorable circumstances, assuming for now that Ransar himself is CR 9 when he puts his mind to it), then we're looking at about 3,618 xp each for the two sessions.

I am, however, just guessing at CR of opponents and tasks, all around. It'll be either higher or lower than that, depending on what NullAshton says they actually were (and he's got the actual stats of the encounters).

[NullAshton]

That seems good.

[Jack Simth]

... which puts me solidly into 7th. Not too much to update; some skills, mostly, but also spells and spell selection; I'm going to be carrying around a Dimensional Anchor for a while. Recalculating encumberance, too; seems I've actually lost weight - interesting.

There - should be good; waiting on the actual session to roll HP, but noted as needed in the HP field.

Hmm... Druids get Fire Trap, as a 2nd level spell, no less.

I've also got some scrolls to replace, but that will wait until next session (unless, of course, we've got a segment of down-time coming up).

Meanwhile, attaching current character sheet.

[Violist]

Session tomorrow, right?

I'll be leaving at about 10:00 for the Rennaisance Fair. Earlier than I'd like but that's the joy of carpooling. Still gives 3 hours, though.

[NullAshton]

Sure... what time are we meeting now, again?

[Jack Simth]

10 eastern, 7 pacific.

[Jack Simth]

Morning.

Server online at 67.168.48.61:6774

Weird - my IP address seems basically static. Huh.

[Jack Simth]

No Nullashton - server closed after an hour and a half of waiting.

[NullAshton]

Sorry... forgot to set my alarm last night and slept late.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Ashton, I know I've quit the game, but that's no reason to try to replace me.

[NullAshton]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13290576&postcount=6

So... dang... awesome...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

It is awesome.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Finally! The alignment debate is solved! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13677253&postcount=11)

[Jack Simth]

NullAshton said:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13290576&postcount=6

So... dang... awesome...


Yeah, it's nice and all, but... well ... a low-bias, intelligent opinion is one of the things pastors are for. The clergy in the story ... did their job. I may just be spoiled, but I don't find that particularly surprising.

Oh, and Narf? That doesn't solve the alignment debate, as most alignment debates get into specifics. For instance: is the guy that animates one skeleton (casts an http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif spell) and has it farm food for orphans (usually considered a good thing) for the rest of eternity good, netural, or evil aligned? Is the guy that maintains his personal "no pork" code Lawful or Chaotic when he refuses local tradition that requires him to eat some bacon on his way out of town?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Well, first of all, we have to figure out why animating a skeleton is evil. Using your explanation, an animated skeleton would be the tortured soul of some poor sap shoved into a dead body.

Now, assuming the necromancer knows this, what he has done is tortured someone to provide food.

Assuming this someone is an innocent, we may then assume that D&D heavens aren't that safe. Now, to reduce it to basic morality, there is Means and Motive.

The Means is the torture of an innocent to provide food for starving children.

The Motive is then most likely (Assuming the best possible motive) the desire to provide food for the living. Assuming the best possible motive, this person will then be racked with guilt over their actions until they resolve it. The best possible resolution is that they accept that it is wrong, but that they are committing a smaller wrong to right a greater wrong.

I cannot see any possible way this would not result in the eventual assumption of expedience as the ultimate morality. This is, in D&D terms, Neutral.

Therefore, the resulting morality on the D&D axis would be Neutral.

In my real world terms, expedience above all else is just another evil, as evil comes from lack of balance - In this case, in motivations. Note that I do not say that expedience in and of itself is bad - It isn't.

[Jack Simth]

... and then later, a Paladin (Sir Evilbane of Goodton) comes across the situation, and becomes fully briefed on it. The spirit inhabiting the undead asks for blessed release; by his Code, the Paladin can't not choose.

DM type 1 decides that if he destroys the undead, releasing it's trapped soul from continual torment to it's just reward, then the orphanage no longer has a food supply, so the orphans starve (the orphanage isn't very strong - can't hold on to valuable items such as a Sustaining Spoon, or a big wad of gold, to support the orphanage after the Paladin leaves). Paladin committed an evil act, and falls. The correct action would be to let the situation lie.

DM type 2 decides that if he does not destroy the undead, then he's knowingly and willfully permitting a continuing evil (the continued torture of an innocent), and falls (the orphanage isn't very strong - can't hold on to valuable items such as a Sustaining Spoon, or a big wad of gold, to support the orphanage after the Paladin leaves). The correct action would be to destroy the undead.

DM type 1 is a reasonable person - he's made a judgment call on which is the worse.
DM type 2 is a reasonable person - he's made a judgment call on which is the worse.

Unless the DM flat out tells the player he's a type 1 or type 2 DM (or 3 or 4 - get to that later; whether that's by an Augury, a Phylactery of Faithfulness, or OOC talking), the Paladin has basically a 50/50 chance of falling (unless he's a mind-reader) given a type 1 or 2 DM.

Now, a DM type 3 (me, when I was DMing) recognizes the dilemma, and will maintain the Paladin's standing no matter which way he chooses (possibly provided the paladin clearly thinks about the situation).

DM type 4 (the child of an unmarried rodent) grins evilly and causes the Paladin to fall no matter what he does.

Type 4 DM is unreasonable; types 1-3 are reasonably reasonable individuals. Unless Paladin knows, in advance, which type of DM he's dealing with, he's got a 50/50 chance of simply falling.

Alignment debates primarily spring from where the gray areas (specific actions) run across absolutes (such as the Paladin's Code).

[narf poit chez BOOM]

The correct action would be to release the undead and then provide for the orphanage in some continueus manner.

[Jack Simth]

Yes, but unless the Paladin is loaded, very inventive, and/or willing to retire the character (to farm), that solution only exists if the DM puts it there.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Any character above first level is, by definition, loaded.

Failing that, few paladins exist in a vaccuum.

And let me note that the paladins' code is not supposed to be easy.

[Jack Simth]

There's different kinds of loaded.

He can't leave a big wad of cash at the orphanage - it'll be stolen. Likewise, he can't leave a food-producing item at the orphanage, as it, too, is very valuable.

With the undead, nobody wants it (not edible, can't sell it, less dangerous ways for a necromancer to get skeletons, and so on), and it defends itself from most threats.

In order for money to make a proper solution, he needs to leave something more along the lines of a golem; a Flesh golem is the least expensive, at 20,000 gp - but requires casting an Evil spell. A Clay golem is next up at 40,000 gp, but it goes Berserk fairly easily, and doesn't go un-berserk. An Iron Golem will do the job admirably, but runs at 80,000 gp (curiously, less expensive than a Stone Golem at 90,000 gp... which is odd, as the Iron Golem has a higher CR, and is equal or better in all vital statistics; the only advantage of the Stone Golem is that it's faster to repair).

If he's got a 14th Wizard and Cleric buddy handy that are willing to blow 3,000 xp, some Animated Objects will do the job (or he can hire it done; but the Permanency, as a 5th level spell at caster level 14, with 3000 xp as a component, has a market price of 15,700 gp - over the "not generally available" purchase threshold. A minimal casting of Animate Objects, also required, is 660 gp. Potentially duplicatable by a single Polymorph Any Object from a Wiz-15, at 1,200 gp, depending on DM ruling - all this, however, assumes there's an appropriate caster in range for hire, which only exists at the DM's discretion).

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Hey, you're the one who listed cash as a solution by inference.

Also, the hierarchy solution still exists. That is, get help there from the organization or an allied organization.

[Jack Simth]

Yeah; a sufficient quantity of cash can solve the problem; you just mentioned "above first" and I was pointing out it can take a little longer than that; even at fairly high levels, you'll feel some of those costs (the costs involved in golems are, incidentally, one of the reasons why Fighters are still handy at higher levels; that 196,000 gp Greater Stone Golem shouldn't be in your wealth allotment until after the fighter can simply Power Attack it to death).

And yes, their are hierarchy solutions - but again; you're looking into NPC's - unless they're pre-established, they exist only if the DM puts them there. Plus NPC's are fickle.

Oh - and Nip/Tuck moved off of Keenspace; you might want to update your signature.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Yeah, my signature is very old.

In my mind, the DM is there to provide a universe that is rational and consistant with the rules. So I would be rather annoyed if the DM just said 'That won't work'.

Given rational and consistant reasons, a rational and consistant solution can be worked out.

[Jack Simth]

True enough - but then you're getting into player creativity - which is a good thing.

Server online, 67.168.48.61:6774

Edit:
Did I miss a memo?

[Jack Simth]

Looks like I did. Ah well. Server closed.

Hmm... wonder what all those "Authentication failed" messages were. Hmm.

[Jack Simth]

Server online, 67.168.48.61:6774 this 9/22/2007.

[Jack Simth]

Server closed - no Violist.

[Violist]

Dangit! Forgot and overslept http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[NullAshton]

Don't forget, D&D tomorrow.

Also, can we run Jack's 3rd level gestalt campaign for a while? Running out of ideas.

[Violist]

OK, setting alarm a bit earlier. Hopefully I won't oversleep again... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

[Randallw]

I've been wondering. Are you planning to have a 4th edition game once the new website system runs?. With the new edition they will have a computer generated dungeon system to run games.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

4th edition is sounding possibly good, from the staff blogs.

[Jack Simth]

Of course the staff blogs that the paid WotC employees post make it sound good. The company is good at marketing. How good a product sounds in the advertising has little, if anything, to do with the actual product.

Server online, by the by, at 67.168.48.61:6774

[Jack Simth]

Server closed.

Ran my session; 1 CR 2 viper, 4 CR 1/3rd vipers, 2 CR 3 lesser cave-ins, 4 CR 1/4 kobolds defeated. Party taken prisoner... by four kobolds (it's their den). 2,400 xp per player ... which should bring the party to 4th level - giving the Sorcerer//Paladin of the party a 2nd level spell of his choice. All equipment (including spell components' pouch) removed, party members tied up.

[NullAshton]

I don't have a spell component pouch, though... eschew materials.

[Jack Simth]

What about focuses, such as the cured lether for mage armor (not that it's hard to come by, mind...)

Oh, and now I remember why Jarvis' charcter sheet looks the way it does on his spells - house rules; the sheet was correct. All primary casters (Wizard, Cleric, Druid) use the Sorcerer's spells known progression, and their own spells-per-day, with some caveats:
1) You don't get bonus spells per day from domains or specialties; instead, you get the appropriet spell known at each spell level - so a Diviner-3 can have a 2nd level Divination spell, but not any other schools at that level. A Cleric gets his domain spells as spells known (so the Cleric-3 with the Air and Animal domain gets Wind Wall and Hold Animal as 2nd level spells known, but none of their choosing; likewise, they don't automatically know the entire Cure line, and either need the Healing domain or picking those spells as spells known).
2) Sorcerers get a d6 HD (not that it matters, as the Gestalt side ups that considerably), 4 skill points per level, Use Magic Device as a class skill, and can take spells known from any spell list... but a spell isn't considered on his class list until it's on his known list.

... so Jarvis could have sat there just using Cure Light wounds while Ixenlani did battle. Oh well. More interesting this way.

Been a little while since we played that campaign.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Jack: That's why I said possibly. It's just that there really isn't any other source for details on the game yet.

[Jack Simth]

Server online at 67.168.48.61:6774 this 10/6/2007.

[Jack Simth]

Server closed. Escaped captivity (but still in tunnels), got some equipment (but not identified it.... heh, heh, heh...) ran off a CR 4 Kobold Sorceress, slaughtered 8 kobolds. 2,200 xp each.

[NullAshton]

When trying to escape with your lives intact and save an entire village, you tend to not have time to identify things.

Wheeeeeeee, that was fun.

[Jack Simth]

Yeah, you tend to have more fun killing a group once you've gotten to the point where you hate the group. Thought you might enjoy giving them a comeuppance. Heh, at this rate, you'll probably make level 5 after next session - done stating your characters up to 4th?

Let's see if I can remember the appropriet house rules...

Sorcerer:
d6 HD, 4+Int skill points per level, Use Magic Device is a class skill, can take spells known from any class list, but a spell isn't considered on the Sorcerer's class list until it's on the Sorcerer's spells known list.

Cleric:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but cleric spells per day and Cleric spell list, adds domain spells as spells known (but does not get the bonus domain spell slot).

Druid:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but Druid's spells per day and Druid spell list, adds Summon Nature's Ally as spells known.

Wizard:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but Wizard's spells per day and Wizard spell list. If specialized, adds one spell per spell level from the wizard's specialty school as a bonus spell known, but does not get extra spell slots from specializing.

No extra time for spontaneous metamagic.

Gestalt characters (due mostly to the small party size).

Very low wealth (fourth level party currently has one magic item each).

[NullAshton]

Wait, I can get HEALING spells?

[Jack Simth]

If you like, yes; although it will usually be slightly redundant with Lay on of Hands.

[NullAshton]

...hmmm, other fun stuff I could get....

....you might want to note that you couldn't get stuff like Paladin and Bard spells. Otherwise at level 10, I could get Holy Sword for free +5 holy weapons...

[Jack Simth]

8th, actually (it's a 4th level spell), but it's just 1 round/level. Also, your character is unlikely to be overly much of a melee machine, even with such boosts - as you've got a strength score of 6. You're much more the Sorcerer//paladin than the Paladin//sorcerer.

[NullAshton]

Yes, but sorcerer//paladin is fine. Yay for super saves and healing!

[Jack Simth]

Yeah, and the extra HP doesn't hurt, either. Sorcerer picks spells from any list, Druids, Clerics, and (specialist) Wizards have more spells known (and get their highest level spells earlier).

Plus, of course, it makes Clerics of different deities more different. Ah, few other things I forgot to list...

1) Sorcerer's get the Wizard's bonus feat schedule (and an extra bonus feat at 1st, rather than Scribe Scroll).
2) Clerics don't automatically cast spontaneous Cure/Inflict spells (for that, get the Healing/Destruction domain)

[javaslinger]

sorry to bust in late, but what/where/how areyou guys playing?

Thanks,

Javaslinger

[Jack Simth]

What is D&D (with a few house-rules). Depending on who's willing to run the table that day, we're either running a (now 4th the level) level low-wealth Gestalt (but otherwise mostly core - see house rules listed just a bit ago) campaign (mine) or a 7th level Gestalt campaign (NullAshton's). Both worlds are homebrewed.

Where is online; we're using the free OpenRPG (http://www.openrpg.com/) online software, and I host the server (Looney, or whatever my IP address happens to be that weekend - 67.168.48.61:6774 of late).

When is 10 am to around 2-4 pm Eastern (your timezone, from your location listing), 7 am to around 11 am to 1 pm Pacific.

At the moment, there's only the three of us, which usually means one DM and two players, (part of the reason for the use of Gestalt characters).

I'm open to new players - pretty good spot for introductions, if you don't mind having been captured by kobolds and stripped of your goods (happened to the rest of the party) I'll be happy to seed a single, reasonably appropriate magic item at some point in your first session, valued in the neighborhood of 2-4k (although anything towards the upper end of that will have some kind of (fairly minor) curse - of MY choosing). Null's in a reasonable spot for adding players, too; I can readily imagine the guard captain we just rescued offering to assign someone to help (whether that's as an "alternative sentence" or someone under his command).

[NullAshton]

I'm going to be a couple of hours late, I have to do a survey for Probability and Statistics class.

[Violist]

Guess I'll sleep in a few then.

[Jack Simth]

Server online - not that it'll matter for a couple of hours - at 67.168.48.61:6774.

[Jack Simth]

Server closed.

[Violist]

I'm sorry to say this, but...

I may need to withdraw from Saturday morning sessions (at least for a while) - with the term getting rampantly underway and classes are definitely stepping up the homework load, I'm finding my mornings getting increasingly hard to be awake any more than necessary over the weekend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

In any case, it's been a blast these past few years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Jack Simth]

Ouch. Hmm... hard to play with just a player and a DM, then. Guess we need to recruit.

Well, for those new to the area...

Known House Rules:
Sorcerer:
d6 HD, 4+Int skill points per level, Use Magic Device is a class skill, can take spells known from any class list, but a spell isn't considered on the Sorcerer's class list until it's on the Sorcerer's spells known list. Wizard's bonus feat schedule (and an extra bonus feat at 1st, rather than Scribe Scroll).

Cleric:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but cleric spells per day and Cleric spell list, adds domain spells as spells known (but does not get the bonus domain spell slot). No automatic Cure/Inflict spells.

Druid:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but Druid's spells per day and Druid spell list, adds Summon Nature's Ally as spells known.

Wizard:
Spontaneous caster; uses the Sorcerer's spells known chart, but Wizard's spells per day and Wizard spell list. If specialized, adds one spell per spell level from the wizard's specialty school as a bonus spell known, but does not get extra spell slots from specializing.

No extra time for spontaneous metamagic.

Gestalt characters (due mostly to the small party size).

Very low wealth (fourth level party currently has one magic item each; anything over about 2,000 gp will have a curse of the DM's choice - and you won't know until after you use it).

Current level: 4

Sources: Core (for now); talk to the DM about any sources beyond Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual.

[Violist]

Yeah, sorry to dump this on you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif if I see anyone I'll direct them here. Might not hurt to advertise on TTW, there's often players looking for campaigns there.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

...TTW?

/me points at FAAA sign.

[NullAshton]

The Tangled Web. You know, the site that all of us stick our characters on?\

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Um...Either that happened after I left, or I simply don't remember it.

In any case, new people looking to join could easily not know what it is, and that is why I posted.

[Jack Simth]

Hmm... I don't actually have a Tangled Web membership.

I do have one for the giantitp.com, though - and they've got a specific recruiting section that is fairly active. Hmm....

Well, server online.

[Jack Simth]

Suppose there's really not much point in leavig the server running - closed.

Also, posted an request on GiantITP.com (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3381208#post3381208).

[Jack Simth]

Server online, by the way, in case prospective players decide to drop by.

[Jack Simth]

Received two reasonably firm "yes" answers today, one "maybe" - Looks like we're liable to have a reasonably full party.

[Jack Simth]

And got new player # 3. Unless someone drops, looks like we'll have a full house of four come Saturday.

[Jack Simth]

Server online at 67.168.48.61:6774. 1 of 4 players currently present.

[Jack Simth]

Server closed; three players made it. Seven dogs, three human commoner zombies killed. 1,333 xp each. There were two alarm traps, but they were meaningless, as there was nobody to respond to them, win or lose.

Party had a meal of dog meat. I'll be bringing out the thirst rules next session, I think.

Hmm... everyone has an account on Giantitp.com - started a thread in the OOC segment for tracking:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3458127#post3458127