Are you tough enough to be the "King of the Hill"?

[Slynky]

Rathar said:
Well.. I am a fan of 3 good planets, no intel and manual placement to insure that we don't start right next to each other. # of points doesn't matter much to me as I can adjust to anything in that realm but I dunno about the balance mod as it seems a bit dull in a predictable sort of way (never played with it so what do I really know but..)

Everything else can be on if you desire as I can build warp openers as fast if not faster than you can and things like mines are only temporary speedbumps.

I also have to admit to liking low tech starts as I feel that I can research like mad but tis all good in this area too!

The opposite of being bored with the Balance Mod is to find yourself pulling an unlucky draw in planet distribution (with damaging warplines around you, etc.) I liken the Balance Mod to playing on the same 64 squares of a chess board...the board may be boring but the play changes in every game. And, at this point on the Hill, I think the pursuit is who's the best, not who's the luckiest.

I have no problem with the following settings (so far):

3 good planets;
No intel;
No mines;
and
Manual placement.

I propose:

No stellar manipulation; (because a game where the intent is to make the first opener and burrow past the front lines in a "riot run" attempt in the back lines shouldn't be the goal of the game);
ZERO racial points;
and
Balance Mod.

Your turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[geoschmo]

I've been working on an update to the balance mod that brings a little more variety back in and yet still eliminates the worst of the really bad starts. I'd also like to have it allow for none races and bring back some moons. I've got some ideas that should work, but it will take some work. Might have it ready in a couple weeks.

[Alneyan]

If nothing else, I suppose a Paradise quadrant should be very easy to set up, with no damaging wormhole and no empty systems (possibly no asteroid systems too).

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:
I've been working on an update to the balance mod that brings a little more variety back in and yet still eliminates the worst of the really bad starts. I'd also like to have it allow for none races and bring back some moons. I've got some ideas that should work, but it will take some work. Might have it ready in a couple weeks.

Always interested in something to make the Balance Mod a bit more enjoyable for those who deem it too boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:
If nothing else, I suppose a Paradise quadrant should be very easy to set up, with no damaging wormhole and no empty systems (possibly no asteroid systems too).

If the Balance Mod is too boring, then I suppose this option isn't too bad. After all, if we can't agree on parameters, then it's KotH defaults (LOL).

[geoschmo]

Alneyan, if you use Fyron's Quadrant Mod(Standard) I believe it has some built in quadrant types like what you are describing with no dead systems.

[Grandpa Kim]

I'm playing my first game with the balance mod in the 2005 tourney and believe it or not, I find it confusing.

Instead of spotting a huge breathable with lousy numbers and building research facs. till the cows come home, I have to make a decision every time! Do I need mins or research? Both,of course! (So what else is new? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ) Makes for a quite different game.

I had a plan when I started. It disappeared down one of the non-existent black holes at the first sign of trouble.

Can't say I really enjoy the mod, but I understand its purpose. If you can improve it Geo you have my full support.

***

And yes, FQM standard does have Paradise quadrants which is a good compromise between mid-life and balance mod.

[Alneyan]

geoschmo said:
Alneyan, if you use Fyron's Quadrant Mod(Standard) I believe it has some built in quadrant types like what you are describing with no dead systems.



Does this quadrant increase the number of planets (and moons)? I suspect it is the case, but all the quadrant types in FQM confuse me. I think it might also increase the number of damaging wormholes and their harshness (if I understand my system data files right).

I can see two ways to change KOTH defaults: it could either be a vote to put the Balance Mod (or something else) as default, or a compromise to use something else. I'd prefer the latter solution myself, for the happiness and comfort of all my subjects. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Emperor's Child]

Slynky said:
And, at this point on the Hill, I think the pursuit is who's the best, not who's the luckiest.



Exactly. My first game was stock, and my opponent was defeated by a rotten starting location. Balance mod should be standard for tournament games IMHO...

[Rathar]

Heh, in my first koth game 5/6 of the first systems I explored had either giant clouds of gas in various pretty colors or black holes. The 6th system had 2 tiny planets..

Needless to say, I lost and quick!

But I still say that the balance thing sounds a bit predictable. I would prefer a "paradise" start with Alneyan looking things over and starting us in reasonably good spots. But that might well be a bit of work and I know Alneyan to be a busy individual so I shan't demand it.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

All the other settings are fine tho so lets fiddle with this one a day or so more?

Definitely not looking for true randomness but also not seeking true non randomness, heh.

Rathar

[Slynky]

I'd be willing to try a map Alneyan and Geo referred to.

[Rathar]

Sounds good to me as well! Love to have some moons! They are verrrry handy for ship training! heh heh!

[Fyron]

Alneyan said:
Does this quadrant increase the number of planets (and moons)?

It wouldn't be FQM if it did not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Alneyan said:
I think it might also increase the number of damaging wormholes and their harshness (if I understand my system data files right).

The game host could eliminate that by either:
1) temporarily replacing all occurences of "Unstable Warp Point" with "Normal Warp Point" in SystemTypes.txt- thusly eliminating all WPs with abilities.
2) setting the chance for Sector - Damage and Warp Point - Turbulence abilities in the "Unstable Warp Point" entry in StellarAbilityTypes.txt to 0 and increasing the chance for Ability 24 by whatever the sum of those ability chances was.

[Alneyan]

Do you want a full-fledged FQM map (more planets around, and various moons), or a milder map with Paradise characteristics? (No empty systems and no damaging wormholes, but everything else as default)

I can do either without any difficulty, along with pre-set starting points. I cannot check for balance, though: all I can say is that you won't start next to each other.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:
Do you want a full-fledged FQM map (more planets around, and various moons), or a milder map with Paradise characteristics? (No empty systems and no damaging wormholes, but everything else as default)

I can do either without any difficulty, along with pre-set starting points. I cannot check for balance, though: all I can say is that you won't start next to each other.

I guess I don't really care...once we agreed on luck being thrown into the planetary setup, spending extra time tweaking this or that would seem to be a waste of your time. I'll roll up some empire tonight and you can roll up a galaxy tomorrow and get this thing started.

[Rathar]

Soundsa good to me!

Empire uploaded

[geoschmo]

The long awaited...

often imitated...

never duplicated...

hope I don't get constipated...

Update to the Book of the Kingdom of Hill!

Here we go... I've included the old chapters for those that haven't been around a while, but I bolded the new stuff:


The Book of the Kingdom of the Hill

In the beginning the hill was dark and chaos reigned and all were embroiled in petty wars about it's base and sides and none was worthy to sit upon the throne.

And by the by did two step forward and through the right of victory over their enemies did lay claim the right to the mantle of the King. And thus did Preacherman face Geoschmo on the field of battle, and thus was Preacheman victorius and took his rightful place on the throne and Geoschmo was cast off into utter darkness.

And so Preacherman was the first true King and his reign was one of peace and light and all was well in the Kingdom of the Hill.

And by the by the good King Preacherman did grow old and feeble from lack of challenge, so that when a the Mighty Stone Mill finally rose from the depths of the Hill he slew good King Preacheman with his sword and a twist of his hips.

And Stone Mill the magnificent took his place upon the throne and was crowned the second King. And he looked upon his Kingdom and said, "Thank you, Thank you verra much."

And thus all was well in the Kingdom of the Hill and all it's citizens lived in safety for Stone Mill the Magnificent was a mighty warrior. Three times did challengers rise to face the Stoney one, and three times did he slay them all in their course.

Asmala the Wise, 1FSTCAT the Brave, and RexTorres the Strong did all seek the throne, and all were denied in turn for Stone Mill was truly the King.

But by and by did the King grow fond of looking at himself in the mirror and practicing his snarl and eating the royal peanut butter and nanner sandwiches.

And thus did a new challenger come from the Northlands. One who was a king in his own right in the land of his birth and born and bred to the task of fighting. And thus did Rollo raise his sword up to smite King Stone Mill. And as King Stone Mill lifted himself from his throne to face the challenge of Rollo, he did by and by slip on a nanner peel and was slain.

And thus did Rollo the Fearsome become the third King. And all was good in the Kingdom of the Hill, for Rollo had brought beer.

And Rollo did reign over the Kingdom of the Hill for the seasons that were appointed unto him. And the people of the hill were happy for the kegs that he did supply. But by and by there arose a challenger to the throne as Mark strode forth to try and claim the mantle of the King. And thusly did Rollo smite the challenger with a mighty thrust of his sword and the people rejoiced for they had discussed it and decided that "King Mark" did not quite have a regal sound to it.

But as quickly as Mark had been dispatched another challenger stepped forward. And he went by the name of RexTorres, which in the tongue of his forefathers is translated King, uh, Torres. And this brought forth anger in King Rollo that one should deign to go by the title that was only for he that sat on the throne of the hill, and they did clash.

For night after night did the battle rage as the people looked on. And when the smoke cleared there was a new King. Rollo did go out into the darkness to bind his wounds and ponder whether he would seek the throne another day. And thus did RexTorres the Strong ascend to the throne. And the people were satisfied for his name sounded suitably regal, but they mourned for there was no more free beer.

And verily did RexTorres look out over the hill and thus did a new challenger arise to face him. His name was Slynky the Quick, and he was clad from head to toe in shining armor and he raised his sword for to smite the King. But King Rex was a mighty warrior, and had grown fond of the throne and did not deign to give it up. And Rex and Slynky did battle, and in the end Slynky was defeated. And in the fight did Rex shred the armor of Slynky the Quick and broke his back in many places and smote him and he did fall down the hill, end over end. And the noise his armor did make and the appearance of him tumbling down the hill end over end was pleasing to the children of the kingdom, and thus was born a new toy consisting of a spring that would move as if walking down a hill, and thus it was named a Slinky, but that is a story for another book.

By and by did another challenger raise up to face King RexTorres. And he was a mysterious foe from the “Land of Too Many Consonants” named Bbgemott. And the battle was fierce and raged for many days and weeks. And there was much whining up and down the hill from those in waiting to take their shot at the throne. But the King and challenger did not trouble themselves with the inferior ones, and continued to fight, as was their right and duty. And in the end was King RexTorres slain and cast down to the bottom of the hill, and a new king was crowned. And thus did King Bbegemott the Mmightyy take his place on the throne of the hill, and the people were pleased, although they could not pronounce his name.

Annd lo ddidd the mmoodd of thhe ppeopple of thhe Kkingdomm of thhe Hhilll tturnn to vvexationn as thhe rule of Bbegemott thhe Mmightyy was hhardd. Fforr hhe llaidd ddownn mmanyy llawss of wwhichh the ppeopple were not ppleasedd, unttil at llastt he ddemandedd that all thhe names of the people shhouldd be cchangedd affterr thhe mmannerr of hhiss hhomelandd to bbeginn annd ennd wwithh ddoublle cconsonantss. So tthereforre ddidd thhe ppeopple ccryy out fforr a cchampionn and ffromm tthemm arrosse Asmala the Wise to sstandd up to Bbeegemott.

And verily did Asmala smite Bbegemott and take his place on the throne. So all across the land did the people rejoice, except for the printers of the moveable type, for they had already ordered extra consonants, and lo they could not get a refund.

The reign of Asmala was long, and though many challengers arose to face him, none could defeat him for, in addition to being wise, he was a mighty warrior, quite handsome of countenance, and exceedingly generous to the royal scribes in charge of writing the Book of the Kingdom of the Hill. Four times did Asmala face a pretender to his throne, and four times did he send them away in defeat and shame. Geoschmo the Weak, Spoon the Silver, Joachim(gezunteit), and Primitive the Loud, all in their course were soundly defeated by Asmala. And lo the people grew bored and wondered if Asmala would ever be defeated.

But all things come to an end, and thus by and by did a mysterious masked stranger step forward to try and claim the throne from King Asmala. The battle was fierce, as both warriors were obviously quite skilled, but in the end the masked stranger did prevail. At first the people rejoiced because they thought they had a new king, but then their rejoicing turned to disappointment as they realized the mysterious masked stranger was only RexTorres, he whom had been king before. And while the people had nothing personally against King Torres, they had kind of got their hopes up for something a little different. And though many people did wonder in their hearts why RexTorres had worn a mask, it surprisingly never came up in conversation and they felt a little awkward just coming flat out and asking about it.

And therefore did the day come when one would step forward to challenge King RexTorres to battle, for that is the way of the Kingdom of the Hill. So then did Master Belisarius rise up to face the king. Now Master Belisarius was one who was known to many as he had been a great master since days of the before time, when the Kingdom of the Hill had been known as the Land of Borg. He had been a mighty warrior in the Land of Borg, and had taught many in the Art of War. There was even a tale told that as a young man Belisarius had been a squire to the great Malfador himself, but this he would never confirm. So it was no great surprise when the Master dispatched RexTorres and took his place on the throne. And the people did rejoice.

And though did challengers arise to face the great Master Bellisarius, he dispatched them all in their times. First of them was Parabolize, the Quadratic who, while he was focused on the task, did not measure up to the Master. Then did Alneyan the Magnificent step forward to challenge the Master, and though he did go down before the Master Belisarius, by all accounts he did so magnificently.

But lo, just when the Belisarius did start to get comfortable with the throne on the Hill, there did arise a new challenger. For Slynky the Quick had returned, and the children of the Kingdom of the Hill were pleased for they wondered what new toy would be inspired by Slynkys demise this time. But to the surprise of the people of the Kingdom of the Hill, the Slynky one proved more than a match for the Master, and thus sent him back to the bottom of the hill and did take his place on the throne and was crowned, King Slynky.

[Grandpa Kim]

*Wild Applause!* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[narf poit chez BOOM]

I laughed! I *cried! It's **truely an ***epic!

* Well, not really.
** Ditto.
*** And ditto was his name-o.

But it is a good funny story.

[Slynky]

Between this small tome below (?) and Geo's newest game idea, I'd say the old boy's got a bad case of the "urge to write" ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif). I can relate.

Anyway(s), Geo's "Book" is just about the best part of KotH...riding in a close second to winning ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif).

[Rathar]

I somehow just noticed the book of the koth and I must say that I was wholly amused!

This particular game may take a while as it seems we have a large "small" universe to play in and without Stellar tech..

RathAr Kalinger
(who shall be known as a prince among spaceship captains. Been using the name since tradewars in bbs days. Liberal to the needy, a scourge to those on top!)

[DeKaye]

Always a great read - the History of KOTH Hill :} Thanks for updating it Alneyan!

[Alneyan]

DeKaye said:
Always a great read - the History of KOTH Hill :} Thanks for updating it Alneyan!



You're welcome. I know I'm a great chap. No, really.

There's a small problem, though. Geo is the one who does the History of the Hill, not me. I haven't even put the updated history on the website yet, though it should be the case by tonight (assuming my computer doesn't blow on me in the meantime).

Take this message as a "KOTH is to have been will updated".

[DeKaye]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif Well, you are a swell chap, Alneyan. You put up with all our crazy game requests! :} Sorry to take the glory from ya, but Thanks Geo for the updated KOTH history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Slynky]

Well, this is the second game I've played where I'm at, apparently, a disadvantage. If I understand it correctly, because I'm player ONE, anytime I create a design and then refit to it on the same turn, if player TWO also created a design, I'm screwed. The so-called PBW retro-fiting bug? Or is it the Simultaneous game bug?

As I was told, one must create the design one turn, then use it the next turn. This puts me at a disadvantage when every turn counts and I get a new ship item off the research line and I have to wait a turn to use it. EVERY item, I have to wait a turn.

This sucks and I don't remember having this many problems before and I've played PLENTY of simultaneous games over PBW.

This latest time, not only did all the retrofits get ignored, I lost minerals in reserve because I counted on the retrofits using them up instead of them just "going away".

[geoschmo]

Slynky, there are two things I do on a regular basis to all but eliminate the problem.

Every time I create a design for a ship I am goign to build (Design name: Alpha) I immedietly copy the design (Design name: Alpha II). Both designs are identical, and I don't build any Alpha II's, so it stays in my design list as a prototype. When I want to upgrade Alpha later with new tech, I then edit Alpha II. You can safely retrofit to a design on the same turn you edit it, it's only on the turn it's created that you are at risk.

Secondly, early in the game I create several dummy designs which I don't use for anything. I even set their design types to Weapons Platform even though they are ships just to keep them out of the way on the list. These I use whenver I have an important retrofit and I have forgotten to do what I described in the previous paragraph, or if I need to retrofit ships of a single design to two more than one new design on the same turn. These are a little more painful to use since you have to edit the entire design, not just a couple components, but it's better then losing progress at an important point in the game.

Of course the downside to this is my design list gets tremendously bloated. It's not uncommon for me to have 50+ ship designs to wade through in a game. Of course obsoleting helps, but it's still a bit of a chore.

Geoschmo

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:When I want to upgrade Alpha later with new tech, I then edit Alpha II. You can safely retrofit to a design on the same turn you edit it, it's only on the turn it's created that you are at risk.

Well, someone will have to enlighten me then. Because, what's the difference between editing a design and creating a new one? If I have Alpha 1 (and I left 10 Kt unused on it) and built ships of Type Alpha 1, am I not editing it when I call it up, copy it, and save it with a different name? What's the difference between upgrading (where you have to give a new name) and copying and saving with a different name? Or is it a matter that it has to be a prototype?

[douglas]

When you create a new design, the game has to assign an internal ID for it. If two players create designs on the same turn, both designs will initially be assigned the same internal ID, and the conflict will be resolved when the turn is processed by changing one of them. Construction queues will be updated to the correct design ID, but any orders, including retrofits, that reference that ID will not be changed. For the player whose design gets its ID changed, any retrofit orders to that design will be interpreted as orders to retrofit to the other player's design and ignored as invalid. Since it is not supposed to be possible to even try to retrofit to someone else's design, there is no log message for this.

The Copy and Upgrade buttons create a new design in exactly the same manner as the Create New button. The only difference is that they automatically fill in what the original design had for you. As far as how internal ID's work, there is no difference.

When you Edit a preexisting design, the design already has its ID and all other players know this ID is already claimed. So, no matter what changes you make to the design, no other design will be created with the same ID, no conflict resolution will be needed, and no retrofit orders will end up referencing the wrong design. Editing can only be done on prototype designs that are not currently under construction anywhere.


One other thing you could try if you don't have a design free to edit into what you need for the retrofit is create a whole bunch of new designs, ending with the one you need to retrofit to. If you create 10 dummy designs and make the real design number 11, the first 10 designs anyone else makes in that same turn will have ID conflicts with the dummy designs, leaving your real design and its retrofits undisturbed.

[Slynky]

Well, how does one edit a design and then save it? Or, where is the edit button?

[geoschmo]

Edit is right below the copy and create buttons. It will only be available if the design you have selected on the left is a prototype. Furthermore, if it's a protoype that you have in a build queue, you will get an message when you click edit.

[Rathar]

Hmm I read this a few times and I don't understand.. Never had this problem myself whether I am player 1 or 2. I feel it a bit important for me to understand since I am the player 2 in question.

Is there anything I can do to help you not get screwed over? Besides not designing ships that is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rathar

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:
Edit is right below the copy and create buttons. It will only be available if the design you have selected on the left is a prototype. Furthermore, if it's a protoype that you have in a build queue, you will get an message when you click edit.

Crap! Dimmed out on my PC so often I don't even notice it! Gamma must be set weird, too. Let me see how that works out.

[Slynky]

Rathar said:
Hmm I read this a few times and I don't understand.. Never had this problem myself whether I am player 1 or 2. I feel it a bit important for me to understand since I am the player 2 in question.

Is there anything I can do to help you not get screwed over? Besides not designing ships that is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Rathar

Well, perhaps holding all attacks at least one turn? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Slynky]

Slynky said:

Rathar said:
Well.. I am a fan of 3 good planets, no intel and manual placement to insure that we don't start right next to each other. # of points doesn't matter much to me as I can adjust to anything in that realm but I dunno about the balance mod as it seems a bit dull in a predictable sort of way (never played with it so what do I really know but..)

Everything else can be on if you desire as I can build warp openers as fast if not faster than you can and things like mines are only temporary speedbumps.

I also have to admit to liking low tech starts as I feel that I can research like mad but tis all good in this area too!

The opposite of being bored with the Balance Mod is to find yourself pulling an unlucky draw in planet distribution (with damaging warplines around you, etc.) I liken the Balance Mod to playing on the same 64 squares of a chess board...the board may be boring but the play changes in every game. And, at this point on the Hill, I think the pursuit is who's the best, not who's the luckiest.

I have no problem with the following settings (so far):

3 good planets;
No intel;
No mines;
and
Manual placement.

I propose:

No stellar manipulation; (because a game where the intent is to make the first opener and burrow past the front lines in a "riot run" attempt in the back lines shouldn't be the goal of the game);
ZERO racial points;
and
Balance Mod.

Your turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I thought we agreed upon no mines. While I will acknowledge that the game creator forgot to turn off that particular setting per our agreement, I figured it could be a gentleman's agreement instead of having the game re-rolled after more than 10 turns had been played.

Now I've lost 2 ships with training and taken damage I might not have taken at the planet had there possibly been more ships able to fire a first round into your platform.

Since mines can't be recovered, I'm also concerned about how many other places there are "illegal" mines over because (1) We agreed to no use mines and (2) I don't want to have to research and build sweeping ships to take with me and (3) My game plan has been laid out from the beginning assuming no mines.

[Renegade 13]

Mine fields can be self-destructed (not proper grammar, I know), though the same menu as other self-destruct/retrofit/fire on commands are given.

[Alneyan]

I overlooked the item rather than forgot to turn it off in the settings. I know, the end result *is* the same. You have my apologies (not that they're worth much). I don't have a grudge against you, by the way, in case you're wondering why every single game you are in runs into some trouble, whereas virtually all other KOTH games are fine.

Feel free to ask a reroll. I would suggest setting up a mod seriously nerfing warheads, so they deal 1 damage to Shields only, or some such (they cannot affect Shields, and 1 damage is intended "just in case"). This mod would have to be used during play, though.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:Feel free to ask a reroll.

35 turns in and me in first place? I don't think so. I was more concerned with what my opponent had to say and what he was going to do to make it right. Those 8 ships I attacked his planet with were intended to move to a more forward area but the loss of 3 ships makes this a questionable decision now considering I see 5 of his ships in the direction I planned to go.

[Slynky]

Renegade 13 said:
Mine fields can be self-destructed (not proper grammar, I know), though the same menu as other self-destruct/retrofit/fire on commands are given.

Thanks Renegade 13. Still learning this game, I confess. Never thought of self-destructing them.

[Alneyan]

I meant a roll back to the turn before, and not starting over... though I'm not sure how going back one turn would work out.

[geoschmo]

It's a tough call. You built your strategy around the lack of mines. Ratharkalinger spent research and resources setting them up. Neither of you is at fault, being an honest mistake on his part using the available tech compounding an honest mistake by the game owner allowing it. But no matter what you do from this point on, someone get's screwed.

Ok, now I'm done stating the obvious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:
It's a tough call. You built your strategy around the lack of mines. Ratharkalinger spent research and resources setting them up. Neither of you is at fault, being an honest mistake on his part using the available tech compounding an honest mistake by the game owner allowing it.

Well, HE is the one who proposed NOT playing with mines so I figure if I can manage to remember and abide by the parameters he set out (and that I agreed to), so should he. When I first noticed, I started to say something to him but (1) I figured I could depend on him sticking to what we agreed to and (2) I didn't want to tip my hand that I had researched Construction (which leads to fighters). So, I stayed quiet.

I also assumed he was not using mines as I wasn't because we were into turn 35 and I had already glassed 3 other colonies starting as early as 15 turns ago!

As to wasting research on it, I'm not really concerned about any damage he may have done to himself by not adherring to the agreed-upon parameters (despite the option being alive in the game settings). I'll give an analogy: If me and another person agreed to a race using only our feet and no wheeled conveyance and the person setting up the course had mistakenly forgot to remove the bicycles from the footpath, I wouldn't get on one and peddle away.

[Renegade 13]

I know I have no real say here, but I agree with Slynky. If someone fails to abide by a rule and end up getting burned because of it, that's their own fault. Think of the lost research as compensation for Slynky's lost ships, and call it even - as long as an agreement is made for all remaining minefields deployed to be destroyed. Then again since I don't know the game, I don't know if 50,000 research points is equivalent to 3 trained ships at this stage.

[geoschmo]

Sorry if I upset you Slynky. You sound a little upset. Obviously I don't have all the information. You must have had some conversations via email about settings other than what you guys discussed here in the forum, because I don't see where he suggested no mines. I see where he said mines were fine and your next post said you guys had agreed to no mines, so obviously there was some offline conversation going on that I wasn't party to.

I was merely trying to point out that you weren't the only one negatively affected, and from the information I could see from the open discussion here it didn't look as if it was anything more than an honest mistake.

Honestly though I think you made a mistake not mentioning the fact that mines had been allowed as soon as you noticed it. You should never assume a gentlmans agreement. If you had brought it up then the game could have been restarted with very little pain, or you two could have agreed to continue and been perfectly clear on what the agreement concerning mines was to be at that point.

Please know that I am not blaming you, but all three of you have made mistakes here in my opinion.

I am coming from the perspective of a game owner rather than a player. If something is allowed by setting that could be disallowed by setting, then from my perspective it should be allowed in the game. If there is something you want to disallow by gentlemans agreement, that's fine, but you have to make those things clear as soon as they occur. That didn't happen in this case.

[Slynky]

First of all, Geo, I'm not angry with you. I figure you to be an honest and fair person. Much more than the average person.

Having said that, I merely disagreed with you in that if a person makes a mistake in a game, his damage to his game is not my concern. That's my opinion. That's all.

As to not being able to see where no mines were specified, please look to my quote where he said "things like mines were only temporary speedbumps". I took that to mean he favored taking mines out of the game so I specifically listed "No mines" in bold type in the portion of the game settings attributed to his suggestions. (then I added my suggestions below in bold in a different section I referred to as my proposal for settings)

And, once again, IN a game without mines, I chose to research fighters as a good early impediment to attacks. To have told him on, say Turn 10, that I discovered mines had been left in the game, any opponent could have discerned that I had researched Construction in order to see that mines were still available as a research item. AND, since I was reminding my opponent that mines were not allowed, I MUST have been researching Construction for another reason...well...fighters would be the best guess. I felt it damaged my strategy to give that kind of information at that point in the game. By the time he learned of my fighters (and lost 4 or 5 ships to 24 fighters), I had not seen any mines in the game. This was around turn 30 (give or take). At this point, after having glassed several planets already, I assumed (and perhaps that's where I made a mistake) he understood no mines were to be used as SURELY he would have been using them by now!

[geoschmo]

Well, what he actually said was "Everything else can be on if you desire as I can build warp openers as fast if not faster than you can and things like mines are only temporary speedbumps." So he's not suggesting no mines as you thought, merely stating that he doesn't care either way.

Clearly though he agreed to no mines, as you suggested them in your next post and his later posts stated that your suggestions were acceptable. But it wouldn't be the first time someone agreed to something in the game settings without clearly reading them or fogetting them later.

You all made mistakes. The question is whether his mistake is somehow worse then your mistake. If not, then the solution to the problem shouldn't punish him exclusivly, as rolling back the turn and destructing all his minefields would do.

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:The question is whether his mistake is somehow worse then your mistake. If not, then the solution to the problem shouldn't punish him exclusivly, as rolling back the turn and destructing all his minefields would do.

Well, in my opinoin, as you stated, he agreed to a set of parameters for the game. They were written in an easy-to-read format.

So, let's go over (possible) mistakes made by me and my opponent:

ME: I didn't remind my opponent of the settings we agreed to (because I didn't want to give away clues to what I had been researching in the game).

OPPONENT: Agreed to NO mines and then used them because he saw them as available after researching Construction.

I think it's clear who made the bigger mistake. I don't think there is any oness on me to remind my opponent of the rules we agreed to. On the other hand, I beleive there is clearly an oness on an opponent to adhere to settings agreed upon (even if the opportunity to get on a bicycle and peddle away appears).

If we can agree upon that, then who should be "punished" the most? Me? I don't think so.

But, perhaps we can debate this all day long and get nowhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif.

What I certainly don't want to see is mines staying in the game! I've patterned my whole structure without worrying about them. Leaving mines in would punish me for making the lessor of the mistakes. The only issue to debate, in my opinion, is what to do about my ships and my plan to advance. One possible solution is for him to fire on (and destroy) two of his ships in that system that give me reason to hesitate my advance (since it's 5 ships to 5 ships considering I lost 2 to mines). Had I been with 7 (or possibly 8) ships, I could advance without worry. Before you discuss the possibilities, I can tell you he has made heavy use of missile ships and I needed the PDs of more than 5 ships in order to advance safely (trained or not).

[geoschmo]

His infraction is not as clear as you make it out to be. You ascribe motive, seeing mines were allowed and using them despite agreeing not too, where simple neglect, forgetting that no mines were agreed to, could sufficently explain it.

On the other hand you saw that the game settings were misconfigured and made a concious decsision not to bring it up. Your motive was completely innocent, not wanting to give up strategy information, but you cannot claim that you simply forgot the setting as he can.

Your race analogy is flawed. It's not reasonable to think someone would simply forget that the race is a foot race. The person could split hairs and say "We never specifically agreed to NOT ride bikes.", but it wouldn't pass a common sense "BS" test.

Clearly there is no perfect solution. If I were the game owner, I would suggest a restart. Obviously though that will damage you in that the element of suprise of your fighters will be lost. You can come up with a new strategy for your next game though. He cannot get his research points back in this game if you were to continue though.

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:
His infraction is not as clear as you make it out to be. You ascribe motive, seeing mines were allowed and using them despite agreeing not too, where simple neglect, forgetting that no mines were agreed to, could sufficently explain it.

Perhaps (although for reasons not divulged in public, I have my reservations). But let's get down to the real world...something that each of us must deal with each day. If you read and agree to something and sign it, the law doesn't care if you forgot. Your just WRONG. Simple as that. So, I don't care if he forgot or did it on purpose. He made a mistake that affected the game. Tell the cop you forgot what the speed limit was.

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:On the other hand you saw that the game settings were misconfigured and made a concious decsision not to bring it up. Your motive was completely innocent, not wanting to give up strategy information, but you cannot claim that you simply forgot the setting as he can.

No, I can't claim that but it's not my responsibility to remind the other player of settings that were agreed upon...especially when doing so hurts my game. Where's the fairness in that?

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:Clearly there is no perfect solution. If I were the game owner, I would suggest a restart. Obviously though that will damage you in that the element of suprise of your fighters will be lost. You can come up with a new strategy for your next game though. He cannot get his research points back in this game if you were to continue though.

And I can't get my ships back, either.

But, to suggest a restart is unpalatable for the following reasons:

(1) I still maintain the bigger mistake was made by my opponent (whether he forgot or not) so I should not be "punished" the most. By the most, I mean put at a disadvantage of a restart for reason #2 below.

(2) Knowing how my empire is set up gives him more of an advantage. While I also know his, his setup is flawed (in my opinion) and it is he who would gain the most by knowing I have, for example, chosen Propulsion. This, is in ADDITION to knowing my propensity for fighters when mines are not available.

(3) The beginning of a game is boring as hell! I hate KotH default settings where you have to check off all the required research blocks and do all the required colonizing. But I do that in anticipation of an exciting middle and end game. Why else would you think I suggest full tech games so often? So, I don't want to do that again by throwing 35 turns away.

[Slynky]

Thinking back over my replies, I realize I'm irritated now and I'm ready to withdraw from the game in protest of the insinuation I'm as guilty as my opponent when I broke no rules. But I've learned to walk around a bit and then see if I feel the same way afterwards before finalizing a decision like that.

I'll be back later.

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
If you read and agree to something and sign it, the law doesn't care if you forgot. Your just WRONG. Simple as that. So, I don't care if he forgot or did it on purpose. He made a mistake that affected the game. Tell the cop you forgot what the speed limit was.

Very true. If it were something other then mines, something that couldn't be disallowed by setting and was simply a case of a pure gentlemans agreement from the start that he forgot about, I wuold be totally in agreement with you. But I can't get past the fact that two things happened that he had absolutly no control over, the setting wasn't turned off by the game owner, and you didn't bring it up as soon as you noticed it.

You can put on my tombstone "Never assume a gentleman's agreement". That's the only inviolable law of PBW game settings in my book. I keep bringing up the possibility of him simply forgetting that you agreed to no mines, but a reasonable argument could be made that once the game owner forgot to disable them that item went out the window, unless you guys brought it to each others attention after the fact and made a gentlemans agreement. He could have researched construction to get fighters or troops, saw as you did that mines were there and not wanted to bring it up for the same reason you didn't, to avoid giving away information abot uhis research and strategies. So then the only difference is that you assumed that since mines were enabled your game defaulted to a gentlmans agreement not to use mines and he assumed that since mines were enabled your game defaulted to using mines. In that case you both made reasonable, but conflicting assumptions.

I know you would probably say to this, "But he agreed not to use mines." but actually he didn't. What he agreed to do was play a game in which mines were not enabled. He didn't agree to a gentlmans agreement not to use them. When it became clear that mines were in the game but you didn't bring up the point, he could have easily assumed that meant you knew about it and were planning on using them too.

I see your perspective and I don't discount it Slynky. I merely see it from a slightly different angle. That's why I am simply saying that restarting seems the most fair in my opinion. Restarting damages you both in that you lose current progress, and you have to adjust your strategy to regain the element of suprise. But to the extent that it damages you both, it does so equally. And it's the only solution that doesn't cause unrecoverable damage to either of you.

[Alneyan]

Slynky said:
Thinking back over my replies, I realize I'm irritated now and I'm ready to withdraw from the game in protest of the insinuation I'm as guilty as my opponent when I broke no rules. But I've learned to walk around a bit and then see if I feel the same way afterwards before finalizing a decision like that.



Note that Geo is only speaking for himself, and his opinions do not necessarily reflect those of the management, Shrapnel Games, etc. (You all know the disclaimer by rote)

I'm waiting to hear from Rathar before making any decision; Rathar may make it unnecessary for me to make any decision. So, I would suggest that you start glowering/cursing/hurling various items at me when said decision has been made.

[Slynky]

Very true. If it were something other then mines, something that couldn't be disallowed by setting and was simply a case of a pure gentleman’s agreement from the start that he forgot about, I would be totally in agreement with you. But I can't get past the fact that two things happened that he had absolutely no control over, the setting wasn't turned off by the game owner, and you didn't bring it up as soon as you noticed it.

But what he DID have control over was remembering the settings that were discussed and agreed upon in the forum. But excuses have been made for that below, I see.

but a reasonable argument could be made that once the game owner forgot to disable them that item went out the window, unless you guys brought it to each others attention after the fact and made a gentleman’s agreement.

I disagree. And I would present another analogy: I have two daughters. They fight constantly. SO I tell them there is a new rule in the house…NO MORE HITTING each other! And to emphasize my concern, I tell them I’ll place a big sign in their room as a reminder. But, I forget to do so. A week later, one coms crying because she got hit and when questioning the other and referencing the new rule, I’m told the sign was never put up, so she thought it was OK to hit. Well, you know and I know that excuse will never fly with any parent. Just as I didn’t think for one moment the guy who left his wallet on the counter wouldn’t have a right to be upset if I took it (after all, he had left it there…couldn’t that have been interpreted as giving it away?). Give me a break! As a person somehow plagued with having ruins left on in their games, I can tell you no one ever saw an artifact and decided “Well, it must be OK after all!” Someone always said something as soon as it was discovered. I might also point out that saying so didn’t reveal any unnecessary information about their game plans, either. Finally, I might also point out that noticing the discrepancy in your scenario above, he chose not to ask to be sure using mines wasn’t a problem. But, then that might have tipped his hand in a revealing manner, would it not? Apparently it’s OK for him to not want to tip his hand and to not ask for a clarification.

I know you would probably say to this, "But he agreed not to use mines." but actually he didn't. What he agreed to do was play a game in which mines were not enabled. He didn't agree to a gentleman’s agreement not to use them. When it became clear that mines were in the game but you didn't bring up the point, he could have easily assumed that meant you knew about it and were planning on using them too.

This must be the kind of logic and reasoning behind OJ being innocent (rollseyes).

I see your perspective and I don't discount it Slynky. I merely see it from a slightly different angle. That's why I am simply saying that restarting seems the most fair in my opinion. Restarting damages you both in that you lose current progress, and you have to adjust your strategy to regain the element of surprise. But to the extent that it damages you both, it does so equally. And it's the only solution that doesn't cause unrecoverable damage to either of you.

I’m not restarting (and for the following reasons) As a matter of fact, I’m withdrawing:

(1) I hate the beginning part of the game. It’s boring. 20 turns of researching the same thing every game. (except mines, of course).
(2) When 2 players meet and the deficiencies in the way you have designed your empire as well as the deficiencies in the way you have conducted your play become apparent, but you get a chance to start the game again, you get a second chance react to the superior empire design and to, to give one of his errors away, research and place PD weapons on ships so that one doesn’t rely on PPB IVs and Vs to shoot down fighters. You also learn the vulnerability of forward-placed colonies without any defenses and make adjustments there. One may also consider fighters now as a more viable tool (although any player worth his salt knows they are just a “temporary speedbump” *cough, cough*). He should also realize he is behind on research (seeing my ships outfitted with ECM/Sensor 2’s while he has nothing I’ve seen yet).
(3) And speaking of research, 50,000 points should be a drop in the bucket at turn 35 as it’s less than half a turns research to me (I have over 100,000). If 50,000 is a burden to him, then he has (had) much bigger problems than he realizes. He just now has LCs coming off and I’m producing cruisers. I’m well on my way to 100 colonies in Rock only and have been chipping away at another colony tech with leftover from my other research gains. So, if 50,000 points is a problem for him, it’s worse than he thinks!
(4) To be blunt about it, I have reservations about whether or not he forgot about the settings we agreed upon because, it’s quite contradictory of a person who says mines are a temporary speed bump and then researches them so late in the game. I’d also say it’s peculiar that (giving more of my game away since it doesn’t matter now) it took him 13-15 turns AFTER I glassed his first colony to decide to research mines. If he really thought mines were now legal because the research item appeared and he assumed that was an override to our agreed settings, why wait so late? And, why haven’t I ran into any mined warpholes with my stealth ships that have been running all around behind his lines watching all his ship movements? And if mines were legal, did he not think it strange he had never wandered into any from me? Finally, the mines I encountered were at his most forwardly-paced colony and most vulnerable. Almost as if he decided he needed a loophole to try and hold on to it. If mines are legal, it’s one of the highest priorities I have in research…I don’t begin research on them 15 turns after meeting the enemy and having colonies glassed. So, I’m not saying my opponent deliberately and knowingly violated the settings we agreed upon because I don’t have any proof. All I have is reservations enough to wonder if he simply forgot mines weren’t allowed and decided he needed the temporary speedbumps since he couldn’t defend his forward colonies in a conventional way (or not).
(5) Considering I’m currently winning the game (it would appear to me), restarting only adds another benefit to him.
(6) Since I didn’t want to play on a random roll of the dice in the first place (wanted the Balance Mod), I’m not real keen on putting the dice in the galactic cup for another roll. Of course, it would be probably be a good thing for him.

A game is supposed to be fun. When it isn’t fun (because of surrounding events), then my time is better spent with some other form of recreation. This match isn’t fun any more. I’ll just withdraw and somebody else can be moved to the top.

[Fyron]

(1) I hate the beginning part of the game. It’s boring. 20 turns of researching the same thing every game. (except mines, of course).

You could create a little mod that has this boring research that everyone does the same for the first 20 turns completed for a medium tech start. This could then be used for future KOTH games. Maybe lots of people will agree and it will become common setting, like Balance Mod maps? Heck, just post what you want done and I'll make it for you.

[Rathar]

My word!

I remembered that we had said no mines and in fact was very surprised to see that mines were available as an option but since that option was open to us for some mysterious reason I thought that perhaps I had forgotten something or a mistake had been made.

I must admit that I did not think of not using a weapon at hand. Instead I figured that the mistake affected us both equally. I.E. We wanted a game with no mines but now we have one so lets just make the best of it and use 'em.

I researched em long ago, just didn't use them except on a planet or three as I think they are mostly a total waste of my time (I'd rather have ships for example) due to the ease with which they get bypassed. (edit: I think that the planets you glassed had all just been built ["hmm here's a nice place to live, aieeeeeee.. blam!] so no mines there!)

At any rate I am sorry you thought that I would not use em due to our initial agreement. I assumed (a dangerous thing!) that you would come to the same realization I had about the setup mistake made and go "Oh well, it got screwed up, no use crying over spilled milk" or at least spoke with me and said "damn, this got screwed up. How shall we react?". Again, another assumption which has proven disastrously wrong.

At any rate, I have hardly any mines anywhere (although this was about to change) and all can be destroyed with ease.

If it is still possible I would love to continue the game. Can we roll it back a turn or two? I don't feel that anything in terms of strategy would be overly harmed.

One small bit of criticism. In future, talk to me, don't just take your ball and go home. You may find that your opponent has useful things to say regarding the situation and that far from being a fiendish breaker of the rules I was just as confused as you are/were and trying to make the best of things.

Having fun in this one, you are clearly a master at this but I am by no means out of it yet. I have only begun to fight!

Rathar

Edit for this bit..

I don't give a damn about the lost 70k research. If thats the margin of victory then so be it. I would rather play than quibble over peanuts. Besides, it gives me something to point to and say "Thats why I lost! Not my lack of skill/power/intellect/etc!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[geoschmo]

My appologies to all concerned. My opinion was not requested or required, and yet for some reason I felt the urge to give it. Obviously I did so in a manner that was less than tactful as I turned a simple misunderstanding, which didn't involve me to begin with into something quite unpleasant. I'm not exactly sure how we got from A to B to C, but I feel quite sure that if all the parties (those that actually have a stake in the matter that is, not myself this time) could somehow manage to get back to A you all could actually resolve the matter to everyones satisfaction.

[douglas]

I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.

[Alneyan]

douglas said:
I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.



I thought about that, but I don't believe it would change much: if you click on something to see what it allows, it still means you have an interest in the tech area. That, and most seasoned players would not do the right-clicking in the first place, since they should know their tech tree by rote.

[Slynky]

douglas said:
I don't have much to add, since Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment, but I'd like to point out that bringing up the mines issue actually would not have revealed anything about Slynky's research - a simple right-click on the Construction tech area would have revealed that Mines was not disabled with no need to research it.

Thanks for the info. Once again, it's obvious I'm not very good at this game as I didn't know this, nor did I know mines could be detonated or that there is an an Edit button that shows up if the design is a prototype.

Also, you've proven what I felt when I decided to pull out of the game...that enough doubt had been cast about my handling of the "mine error" as to have people think I f----- up when I don't feel I did. Additionally, statements like "Rathar has agreed to a solution that is only to his own detriment" diminishes any win I might manage to eek out and casts a shadow over my ability as the victor because, apparently, poor Rathar is taking the big hit because of the (apparent) mistake I made in not mentioning it to him when I discovered it.

As I said earlier, it's supposed to be recreation. I recently said it to Geo when he completed a game that was very entertaining. When my precious little time for entertainment gets drowned out by situations like these, it's time to quit. When I have to suck down Tums to quiet my stomach down, it's time to quit. When I can't focus on my job because of a match, it's time to quit...and I haven't been worth a crap this afternoon at work.

According to the rules:

The current King must accept the challenge of the current #1 contender, or he abdicates. If the King abdicates, the #1 contender is crowned the new King of the hill. If either player abandons the game at any time, he forfeits and the other player becomes or retains the title of K.O.T.H..

I might also suggest someone augment the rules in KotH to address problems of this nature as, at least in my experience, game setting mistakes are not that uncommon. (of course, with all the mistakes I am prone to, I may have missed it so I apologize up front).

Apology accepted, Geo. Unfortunately, my heart isn't in game any longer. I know how you love to debate.

[Rathar]

Please don't quit. I don't care about lost research etc as it's only a little and the manufacturing potential lost in really small (say 30 mines total made).

I really don't feel disadvantaged. I just want to play.
Leave others opinions out of it. I am fine with any method of resolution whether it be a few turn roll back, taking what we have and my exploding all mines or what have you.

There was no "Your mine error" just a misunderstanding, a misconception, and an accident.

Anyway, if there is a way to make this continue I am all for it.

Rathar

[tesco samoa]

Hmmm...... I miss playing seiv.

Can you add me back to the list. I could go for a few quick games.... as I usually end up losing on these games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Slynky]

Rathar said:
Please don't quit. I don't care about lost research etc as it's only a little and the manufacturing potential lost in really small (say 30 mines total made).

I really don't feel disadvantaged. I just want to play.
Leave others opinions out of it. I am fine with any method of resolution whether it be a few turn roll back, taking what we have and my exploding all mines or what have you.

There was no "Your mine error" just a misunderstanding, a misconception, and an accident.

Anyway, if there is a way to make this continue I am all for it.

Rathar

For your investment in (game) time and willingness/desire to play on despite the various comments, I've applied to join the game. I'm assuming, but of course, I'm likely not to know as I'm finding out all sorts of things about the game lately, it's as simple as being accepted and sending in the next turn.

For our situation, destroy existing mines and we can disregard the rest. I'll decide what to do with the invading fleet of 5 remaining ships (retire or advance).

Good luck.

[Rathar]

Keen! I look forward to continuing! 5 ships scares me not! (yet!)

Rathar

[douglas]

Slynky said:Also, you've proven what I felt when I decided to pull out of the game...that enough doubt had been cast about my handling of the "mine error" as to have people think I f----- up when I don't feel I did.


I'm sorry if you feel that way. I think you could have handled it better if you had known about this feature, but Rathar made a far greater mistake. The best possible approach for you would have been to bring it up with Rathar as soon as you noticed, pretending you'd just right-clicked on the tech for whatever reason, but you really didn't have any obligation to do anything about it at all except to not violate the agreed-on rule. Rathar, however, did have a clear obligation in my mind to verify that the no-mines rule was dropped before breaking it, and he should suffer any consequences of correcting his error.

[Rathar]

Meh, I knew about it as soon or sooner than he did as construction is the very very very first thing I research in a game (due to the large bonuses to production from troops..) but well, I didn;t mention it as I assumed wrongly that we would both reach the same decision about it... Things got F'd up yah, fault, none.

/buriesdeadhorse

Rathar

[Renegade 13]

I have surrendered to Glyn. For some reason my heart wasn't in this game and I got off to a bad start. Not really sure why. But in either case, Glyn has earned himself a victory, and if possible Alneyan, I'd like you to remove me from the hill for the time being. I have little time to play right now and just don't feel like it either. But I will be back, probably sooner rather than later.

[Alneyan]

Updating skill roll: [1d20+7] => [14+7] => [21], needed 15.

KOTH update is a success.

[Emperor's Child]

All hail to Grandpa Kim... He ground down the forces of Child of the Emperor and is victorious!

Great game, Grandpa Kim! Several large reverses of fortune, but in the end you just kept coming faster than I could respond.

Child of the Emperor.

[Glyn]

Good game Renegade, much better than the first one! I look forward to playing against you again in the future. I didn’t even get to spring my surprise attack via the black hole system in your backyard.

Since there are now two #2 contenders and a current battle for KOTH, do we (Grandpa Kim and Glyn) need to battle it out for the contender slot?

[Alneyan]

Following the rules, you simply line up to fight the King (Grandpakim would then become #3).

It might be good to bring the third level back, though. There used to be four levels plus the KOTH game, then cut down to three and to two due to a lack of players, but perhaps there are enough players around to have three levels up and running.

[Grandpa Kim]

Thanks for a great game Emp! I think I'm finally learning how to play KOTH.

Say, I just realized, I've never been to such rarefied heights on the hill. Kinda heady, kinda scary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Alneyan]

KOTH is now updating daily! (Warning: only applies between Dec 23,2005 and Dec 24,2005)

[Alneyan]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the updating of KOTH.

[DeKaye]

Fuzzy once again has been defurred :} . Congrates GozGuy. Thanks for a great game. I figured I wouldnt drag the game out and keep trying since you kept asking me to surrender. I usually fight till there is no possibility of things turning around in the game. I had maybe a slight chance, maybe (LOL- like 1% - LOL). Did you get bored with the game? I was finding it exciting. I guess I like the underdog role. I was so thrilled at my last victory. I couldnt wait for our next encounter. Oh well, till next time we meet. Great game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Gozra]

Thanks Fuzzy I was 99% sure that I was ahead. I try to fight until there is no possiblity of victory also. I was not bored. until again
Gozguy

[Alneyan]

This KOTH update is Linux-powered, and Retarded-Announcement-certified.

I actually updated the website ten hours or so, but forgot to let you know about it. I know you enjoy KOTH updates very much... you *are* thrilled about the updates, right?

[DeKaye]

Well, not exactly "thrilled", but I am happy about the KOTH updates. Thanks for all you do :}!

[Alneyan]

I'm seriously considering putting back the third level, as otherwise we will have a bunch of contenders and not many other people. With Asmala coming back, we run with 13 players, so it should be enough to get three levels up and kicking.

Going back to three levels would mean, I think, a Glyn vs Grandpakim game. I'll mule over it for a bit longer, and I'll update the Hill tomorrow (if only to put Asmala back on the Hill).

[Rathar]

After a seriously fun game, in which I reached the lows and the highs, I have been defeated.. I "think" I could do successful guerrilla warfare and drag it on forever but with two hammers smashing through my empire and having just had my only hammer broken upon Slynky' anvil I recognize my defeat!

Back to the bottom I go! Weeeee! These games are really the most fun I've had in/with this game!

Rathar

P.S. I am soooo ready for your sleevey tricks next time Slynky!

For my next game I desire 3 planet start, low tech, random but rich universe with minimal GM supervision 'cept for making sure neither of us starts in a 5/6 gaseous nebula region..! No intel, all else is good!

[Slynky]

Rathar said:
After a seriously fun game, in which I reached the lows and the highs, I have been defeated.. I "think" I could do successful guerrilla warfare and drag it on forever but with two hammers smashing through my empire and having just had my only hammer broken upon Slynky' anvil I recognize my defeat!

It was a tough game and you put up a better-than-expected game considering the amount of space you held. Actually, you managed some good economics! My ships had a hard time hitting you, it seems. Most every fleet you fought was trained to 20% but not every ship was fully trained as they had to go out early to fight against you sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. As I figured it, there couldn't have been more than 5 racial points difference in our setup but when I couldn't hit your light cruisers and would lose 15 (or so) ships, I decided ramming with weapon ships was better than doing hardly any damage at all.

You got off to a better starting place than I did, that's for sure. Looking at your starting home worlds, you had 3 good warps out of one and 3 good warps out of the other. On my side, one of my homeworlds was placed at a dead-end where the only way out was to go through the other home system. That sucks! My links to the inner ring took longer to get to than your links did but we still set up defenses pretty fairly.

The map was tough. Bigger than I expected with, probably, more that twice the number of systems a standard KOTH map has. The defensive line was tough to manage as, I figure, we had 5-6 warp points between us that needed guarding and with no mines, it meant one didn't have to build the obligatory 100-sweep capability to be sure of getting through any particular point...a really tough game.

You did well. I would ask other questions but I don't want to give away any of your playing style.

[Glyn]

Slynky,
Looks like I am your next challenger. Since you don’t like the colonizing and early tech phase of the game. I would suggest the following game setup conditions.

5 Good planet start
Manual placement.
Medium Tech start.
No Mines
No Intel
No Colony Tech.
No Stellar Manipulation.

Since there is no colony tech the randomness of the map shouldn’t give a major advantage to one side or the other.

[Slynky]

Glyn said:
Slynky,
Looks like I am your next challenger. Since you don’t like the colonizing and early tech phase of the game. I would suggest the following game setup conditions.

5 Good planet start
Manual placement.
Medium Tech start.
No Mines
No Intel
No Colony Tech.
No Stellar Manipulation.

Since there is no colony tech the randomness of the map shouldn’t give a major advantage to one side or the other.

I guess I will always show how little I know about the game here in "public" but just how does one play without a colony tech?

[Alneyan]

I would recommend a "no Alneyan as game creator" setting too. I screw up all the games I host for Slynky, while not screwing up any of my other games. I even managed to screw up twice last time, with the map (somewhat annoying) and the "no mines" part (very annoying).

Multiple homeworlds are pretty much random, so even though your starting points *were* balanced (with the WM layout anyhow), the other two homeworlds can end up pretty much anywhere. That's why I tend to use the bigger small maps when setting up games with multiple homeworlds... though I must have used the Medium setting for this particular game (or I changed the maximum amount of systems, which would have the same result).

No colony tech could mean removing the other two colony techs, but I feel a better option would be to switch on "Cannot settle colony types other than your native colony type", therefore allowing you to pick any of the colony types.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:No colony tech could mean removing the other two colony techs, but I feel a better option would be to switch on "Cannot settle colony types other than your native colony type", therefore allowing you to pick any of the colony types.

When I first saw it, I wondered if it was a setting where you started on a certain homeworld (no matter) but you had no ability to build any colony ship yet till you researched one of the 3. But I don't think the game can handle that.

Then, I wondered if it meant that you could never expand past the original 5 colonies the whole game.

I must confess, I'm at a loss.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:I would recommend a "no Alneyan as game creator" setting too. I screw up all the games I host for Slynky, while not screwing up any of my other games. I even managed to screw up twice last time, with the map (somewhat annoying) and the "no mines" part (very annoying).

If you don't have time, then that's fine. I understand your worries but when asking for someone to take the extra effort to set up a game, we need to be thankful for that (even if there have been glitches in the past). If you feel uncomfortable, then I also understand and perhaps Geo can be persuaded to do it if he's not too upset with me on our last debate.

[Renegade 13]

Alneyan said:
No colony tech could mean removing the other two colony techs, but I feel a better option would be to switch on "Cannot settle colony types other than your native colony type", therefore allowing you to pick any of the colony types.


Slynky is correct, there is no such option that does what you are describing. The closest option is one that restricts the empire to only colonizing it's own atmosphere type. Only planets breathable by that empire would be able to be colonized if that option were selected...and for a KOTH game I think that would be a very bad idea.

[Alneyan]

The option I was speaking of is namely "Players can only colonise home planet type", right above the thing about atmospheres (both don't necessarily go hand in hand). That's what I had in mind when I read Glyn's settings, but he could have meant something else indeed.

I can give it another try Slynky, if you insist. Like I say, fifth time is the charm! (Okay, fourth perhaps) Send me a final mail with all the settings written plain as day, all in bold and caps, with the biggest police you can lay your hands on, and it might just work.

KOTH will be updated in a couple of minutes.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:I can give it another try Slynky, if you insist. Like I say, fifth time is the charm! (Okay, fourth perhaps) Send me a final mail with all the settings written plain as day, all in bold and caps, with the biggest police you can lay your hands on, and it might just work.

Will do. Thanks. I appreciate it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Will]

I'm not at a computer with SEIV at the moment, but I distinctly remember two options restricting colonization: Only Colonize Home Planet Type, and Only Colonize Home Planet Atmosphere. The first forces a player that chooses Rock planets to start to only colonize rock planets, and the same with paper planets, and scissor planets... err... ice and gas planets. The second allows you to colonize only the "green star" worlds.

[Glyn]

I known that there is not a “No Colony setting”, but it can be modded to replicate that effect. Using the option to colonize only home world type and atmosphere would multiply the random luck effect of any map.

Maybe that’s getting too fancy in the setup.

[Slynky]

Glyn said:
I known that there is not a “No Colony setting”, but it can be modded to replicate that effect. Using the option to colonize only home world type and atmosphere would multiply the random luck effect of any map.

Maybe that’s getting too fancy in the setup.

Yeah, maybe too fancy setting a mod up for it. Especially when there is a Balance Mod that has 2 versions to make things equal (or mostly equal). Or, if that is too predictable, perhaps a map and manual placement off the Paradise quadrant.

Otherwise, I agree to all your other proposals:

Medium Tech start
No Mines
No Intel
No Stellar Manipulation.

[Glyn]

Slynky said:

Balance Mod that has 2 versions to make things equal (or mostly equal). Or, if that is too predictable, perhaps a map and manual placement off the Paradise quadrant.

Medium Tech start
No Mines
No Intel
No Stellar Manipulation.



Ok
Either mod is fine with me.

One Planet of Good quality.
Medium Tech start
No Mines
No Intel
No Stellar Manipulation.

[Slynky]

We can add more planets if you like. I only removed the 5 because I thought it might be related to having no colony type. So, if you want that back in, it's fine with me.

[Glyn]

Alneyan said there was a randomness problem with multiple home world start.

So lets stay with one.

[Slynky]

Glyn said:
Alneyan said there was a randomness problem with multiple home world start.

So lets stay with one.

Then, it looks like:

One Planet of GOOD quality
Medium Tech start
No Mines
No Intel
No Stellar Manipulation
Balance Mod 2.0 (the most recent one Geo made)
Manual placement

I'll begin working on my empire.

Good luck and good gaming!

[Glyn]

Slynky said:
Then, it looks like:

One Planet of GOOD quality
Medium Tech start
No Mines
No Intel
No Stellar Manipulation
Balance Mod 2.0 (the most recent one Geo made)
Manual placement

I'll begin working on my empire.

Good luck and good gaming!



I agree.

[Slynky]

Empire uploaded.

[Glyn]

My empire is ready and uploaded.

[Asmala]

I'm ready in my first SEIV-game within a year and very eager to see how I manage after the absence. Do I still remember how to play... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

[Slynky]

Asmala said:
I'm ready in my first SEIV-game within a year and very eager to see how I manage after the absence. Do I still remember how to play... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/confused.gif

OK, guys, don't fall for ANY of that, "do I still remember how to play" stuff. That trick is so old, I'm surprised he would use it when he SURELY remembers all the others http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Alneyan]

Okay Houston, we've got a problem here. My ISP is again gving me trouble.

Geoschmo, could you please create games until further notice? I may be able to update the website, though I'll have to check. More info later... hopefully. Please use email for contact, especially if you wish a quick reply (this thread is fine if you do not expect a reply, or can wait for a while - as in a day or two).

[Phoenix-D]

*scruffs the dust off*

Shake in terror, Hill! I have returned!

(says the competator with a sub 1.0 win/loss ratio..)

[Slynky]

Phoenix-D said:
*scruffs the dust off*

Shake in terror, Hill! I have returned!

(says the competator with a sub 1.0 win/loss ratio..)

LOL...speaking of shaking in terror, I notice you got real brave after Asmala got paired up (*wink*).

Just kidding! Welcome back. The "Hill" welcomes the population boom.

[geoschmo]

Ok, I suppose that that means Rather faces Phoenix-D next. I'll get that one setup shortly. Alneyan will have to update the website when he can get his isp issue straight.

Rand surrendered in our game, so he's the next waiting at the bottom of the hill. I see Alneyan added a new level, but I'm currently the only one on it and Goz is waiting for an opponent on the level below me. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Slynky, Glyn and Granpdakim get through their King matches faster then I can get an opponent here on the new level? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Alneyan]

Actually, it looks like I'll be alright, though you should stand watch for now. I'm using a wireless adapter now, and it works well enough for what I want to do. The only problem is that it's a loan, so I need to get one of my own (or otherwise secure access to the thingy).

[Grandpa Kim]

Looks like RL has caught me again so please take my name off the hill. When I return, I'll be glad to start back at the bottom since I'll be rusty.

Geo, I will continue with the 2005 open but playing both these fast paced games will be too much.

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:I see Alneyan added a new level, but I'm currently the only one on it and Goz is waiting for an opponent on the level below me. Wouldn't it be a hoot if Slynky, Glyn and Granpdakim get through their King matches faster then I can get an opponent here on the new level? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I'd suggest keeping 3 levels all the time...and if the king is NOT in a game, then anyone on the 3 level awaiting a game can go ahead and move up for a "king match". Not sure if the "automated website management" tool can handle pushing someone to the challenger position but it would seem to be a good way to keep games going and maintain 3 levels during the more "busy" times.

[geoschmo]

Grandpa Kim said:
Geo, I will continue with the 2005 open but playing both these fast paced games will be too much.

It's your call of course, you know better then anyone how much you can handle. But I'd hate for someone to walk off the hill when they've gone through so much to get to the top like that. There's really no reason to stress about the tourney game. Round one still isn't completely over. I don't think the guys in the last game have even met yet. I can start your round two game any time now, but there's no reason you couldn't take your time with the turns. It's not like anyone will be waiting on you.

[Phoenix-D]

Rathar said:

For my next game I desire 3 planet start, low tech, random but rich universe with minimal GM supervision 'cept for making sure neither of us starts in a 5/6 gaseous nebula region..! No intel, all else is good!



Arm the game, admins. These settings are fine.

[Slynky]

Glyn, there is some sort of problem. The turn looks the same to me.

[Slynky]

I don't know what to do here as:

The turn I did the last time had me discovering GAS technology (not minding giving away a piece of the game since it seems to be coming to a close...)

I designed a colony ship to settle gas planets and a few other things. Submitted my turn on PBW and it sat green (meaning my turn was submitted and yours wasn't).

Just for grins, I checked PBW website and saw that the game was listed as yellow (meaning I needed to send a turn). That meant to me that you had submitted a turn closely following mine. But, when I downloaded the file labeled 48, it turned out being the same as the turn before...it told me I had discovered gas tech again.

So, I'm confused!

Anyone have any input on this sort of thing because I haven't see this sort of problem before. And, if I just do the turn over and design new GAS colony ships...what the hell is up with that since I designed them last turn?

[geoschmo]

If you look at the turn log you guys uploaded within two seconds of one another:
Jan 22, 2006 6:21:10 PM EST
Uploaded game turn (glyn)
Jan 22, 2006 6:21:08 PM EST
Uploaded game turn (slynky)

I have heard reports of a rare glitch where you download the next turn and it somehow gives you the previous turn file. When you mouse over or click the "Get turn" button what is the file name for the turn file? It should be "kothsvg_48.zip". If you are still seeing "kothsvg_47.zip" you are getting an after-image. Try holding ctrl and hitting F5 to clear your browser cache, or logging off and back onto the PBW website.

Geoschmo

[Slynky]

Thanks, Geo. But still comes out the same. I'll redo the turn and see what happens. I'll design and build gas colony ships again. I guess if this is the way you say it is, then I actually missed seeing a turn (though I looked at 47 and saw no "gaps").

[geoschmo]

No, don't do that. Your turn is going to get messed up I'm afraid. Send me an email with your password and let me look at the turn.

[Glyn]

Oh that was the problem you were talking about.

I did experience a problem where if you upload your turn then click on the game info icon after a few minutes after it finished processing that the download file icon would still be pointing to the previous turn’s file.

I found if you click on the view all games icon then select the game it pointed to the correct download file.

I think the icon panel was not updated along with the game information panel so it got out of sync.

[Slynky]

Glyn said:
Oh that was the problem you were talking about.

I did experience a problem where if you upload your turn then click on the game info icon after a few minutes after it finished processing that the download file icon would still be pointing to the previous turn’s file.

I found if you click on the view all games icon then select the game it pointed to the correct download file.

I think the icon panel was not updated along with the game information panel so it got out of sync.

Well, best I can figure, I must have gotten the wrong turn somehow, Glyn. Not sure how. I will say my email service has been weird lately as, on Sunday, I received your reply from my Saturday message and it was dated that you sent it on Saturday. Several other emails arrived late as well during the weekend.

So, when I was playing my turns/uploading and after it was processed, normally, the turn arrives in my email within the minute. If it didn't arrive after 3 or 4 minutes, I would just download from the site. That email glitch from my provider may have caused the problem somehow yet I never replayed a turn until I got the latest turn and it said I had just discovered gas tech. *shakes head*

Hopefully, my submittal (against Geo's advice) won't cause a problem.

[Asmala]

K.O.T.H. Mwbard vs Asmala

Mwbard surrenders at turn 39. No time for big battles, the game was settled by colonizing speed. Even though we started at opposite sides of the galaxy, I was able to corner Mwbard quite well and I had about 4/5 of systems. That big difference in planet amount would've settled the game sooner or later, and probably sooner.

Good game, thanks Mwbard. Pretty fast too, took only a little under week to finish it.

[Slynky]

Hmmm, doesn't sound like someone who is rusty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. Sounds more like somone who misses being on the throne. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif.

[Alneyan]

Excuse of the day for the late update: maintainer spent too much time fiddling with driver wrappers, Wifi USB adapters, and Linux. KOTH has now been updated, and I'm back on a working OS.

I've taken down Grandpakim as per his wishes (though he may be resurrected still, should he ask to be brought into the Hill). Everything else should be up-to-date; if not, feel free to yell at me.

I like your proposal Slynky, and will probably include it in the next rules revision; I was planning to make a few changes, most notably the part about "you can express a preference about who you want to play with" (I do not think it has ever been implement, and would be fairly unpractical without a host of players) and ditching everything relating to 1.49 (the Deluxe patch being the answer).

Edit: a *device* wrapper - as if. Did you know graphic cards were twice as fast if you bent them in the proper manner? A driver wrapper, now that sounds more like it.

[Glyn]

Slynky successfully defended his place as KOTH by trouncing the empire of Glyn in all categories.

I liked starting off at medium tech level.

Lessons learned: There are subtle differenced in expanding and exploiting a balanced map. Strategies used in stock maps may the most efficient in a balanced map.

I did liked starting off at medium tech level.

Sorry Alneyan, you'll have to update the KOTH page again. Besided change is good!

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:Edit: a *device* wrapper - as if. Did you know graphic cards were twice as fast if you bent them in the proper manner? A driver wrapper, now that sounds more like it.

Well, you may be on to something...personally I like to keep my graphic cards straight and never even dreamed the would operate faster if I bent them some. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Slynky]

Glyn said:
Slynky successfully defended his place as KOTH by trouncing the empire of Glyn in all categories.

I liked starting off at medium tech level.

Lessons learned: There are subtle differenced in expanding and exploiting a balanced map. Strategies used in stock maps may the most efficient in a balanced map.

Thanks for the game, Glyn. Had me worried several times! And thanks for the regular and fast turn times.

It would be interesting to hear different takes on the changes one would make in playing a balance map. Personally speaking, I know it has cut out a lot of cursing at my house (when you go through the 2nd nebula only to find a 3rd...you get my meaning) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

As to Geo's v2.0, I'll have to go back and read it to see the difference between ice/rock and gas. This version had a nice randomness to it that made me cross my fingers each time I moved to a new system yet NOT presenting me with black holes and such things. I think it's a good improvement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif (polite bow)

[Slynky]

Now, we just have to wait for Geo, party-animal that he is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, to hit the boards this morning and see he has a match.

I wonder what kind of suggestions he'll have for settings (scratches chin as he ponders the vast reaches of Geo's imagination).

I believe I've played against Geo more than any other player...around 6 or 7 games, I'd say. But it's been a while...I'm sure I'll have to roll up my sleeves.

[Glyn]

A good game thanks Slynky.

The only problem I noticed with the balance mod was that some rock and ice planets had a matching ice or rock moon. I don’t known if the balance mod can be made to prevent having a moons and planets of the same type. Not a big problem, but it would be just a bit more balanced.

[Slynky]

Glyn said:The only problem I noticed with the balance mod was that some rock and ice planets had a matching ice or rock moon. I don’t known if the balance mod can be made to prevent having a moons and planets of the same type. Not a big problem, but it would be just a bit more balanced.

If you mean there was a matching, for example, ice planet with an ice moon, that's true but I don't remember finding a planet with my atmos type AND a moon with my atmos type together. I did a quick check and didn't notice one.

On the other hand, I think there was a large or huge breathable (gas) planet in each system for you where on my side of the map, sometimes my breathable was a small (or tiny, I think).

But, Geo mentioned something like this, I think, in his long description in the Balance thread, so I think this was intentional...that rock/ice people would have more planets on average but gas people would have fewer but larger. Or something like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

[geoschmo]

Glyn said:
I don’t known if the balance mod can be made to prevent having a moons and planets of the same type.


Yeah, there isn't anything preventing it actually. There probably aren't too many, so they won't show up often and might not even occur in every map. But actually I think that preventing it could be accomplished fairly easily. I'll play around with that some and see if I can work it into a later revision.

Slynky, you and I have played each other so often I doubt there will be many suprises. And since I assume we will be using a balance map I don't have the possibility of you getting a bad start to give me a leg up, which was the only way I've been able to beat you in the past. I fully expect this to be another defeat for me, but I'll give you the best fight I can.

I will defer to you as King for settings. My only suggestion would be no stellar manipulation. I'll play with it if you want, and I have gotten pretty good with it lately (mostly from lessons learned the hard way against you), but I'd prefer to go without it.

Geoschmo

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:

Glyn said:
I don’t known if the balance mod can be made to prevent having a moons and planets of the same type.

Slynky, you and I have played each other so often I doubt there will be many suprises. And since I assume we will be using a balance map I don't have the possibility of you getting a bad start to give me a leg up, which was the only way I've been able to beat you in the past. I fully expect this to be another defeat for me, but I'll give you the best fight I can.

I will defer to you as King for settings. My only suggestion would be no stellar manipulation. I'll play with it if you want, and I have gotten pretty good with it lately (mostly from lessons learned the hard way against you), but I'd prefer to go without it.

Geoschmo

Nah...no stellar manipulation. As Alneyan pointed out often enough, it's almost a race to get it first and do surprise attacks behind lines.

Defer to me? LOL...I usually try to suggest something to break up the monotony...never know what I'll suggest. 'Course, we can negotiate.

What about:

Warp holes anywhere in system (I miss that one);
No mines;
3 good starting planets;
3000 points;
Manual placement;
No Religious;
No Stelar Manip;
Map: medium spiral but rolled over and over to get a "small" medium result;
No stealth armor or claoking to avoid that "other" race to sneak ships behind the line since there would be no mines; and
Balance version 2.0

Clarification on the armor above...one can use Scattering but there will be no ships allowed with Stealth. This is a trust issue and I trust you...after all, one never knows when the other player might build hyper optics just to check...so that adds the element of Reagan's famous remark, "Trust but verify". I don't think either of us would pursue a win by cheating. And if you think this too cumbersome, just say so and it's out without any problem.

Your counter?

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
Warp holes anywhere in system (I miss that one);
No mines;
3 good starting planets;
3000 points;
Manual placement;
No Religious;
No Stelar Manip;
Map: medium spiral but rolled over and over to get a "small" medium result;
No stealth armor or claoking
Balance version 2.0




This all sounds good, as long as we have a map with manual placement, which you may be assuming here but didn't state. With no mines if we start too close it would be over too quick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Renegade 13]

You know Alneyan, I think you can put me back on the hill already if you wouldn't mind. Only gone for a couple of weeks, and I miss it! With my work schedule, I may only manage a couple turns per day, but as long as that is acceptable to my potential opponent, I'd like to be back in it. Maybe this time I could advance beyond the second level!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:

Slynky said:
Manual placement;



This all sounds good, as long as we have a map with manual placement, which you may be assuming here but didn't state. With no mines if we start too close it would be over too quick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

If only you will overlook things like this in our game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Slynky]

Renegade 13 said:
You know Alneyan, I think you can put me back on the hill already if you wouldn't mind. Only gone for a couple of weeks, and I miss it! With my work schedule, I may only manage a couple turns per day, but as long as that is acceptable to my potential opponent, I'd like to be back in it. Maybe this time I could advance beyond the second level!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Can't imagine anyone getting upset at that turn rate...especially if you find yourself able to exceed that sometimes.

Welcome back!

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
If only you will overlook things like this in our game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hmmmm, time to change my contact fluid I think.

[Slynky]

So, we're agreed on:

Warp holes anywhere in system;
No mines;
3 good starting planets;
3000 racial points;
Manual placement;
No Religious;
No Stelar Manip;
Map: medium spiral but rolled over and over to get a "small" medium result;
No stealth armor or cloaking;
Balance version 2.0

I'll work on an empire.

[Slynky]

Slynky said:
So, we're agreed on:

Warp holes anywhere in system;
No mines;
3 good starting planets;
3000 racial points;
Manual placement;
No Religious;
No Stelar Manip;
Map: medium spiral but rolled over and over to get a "small" medium result;
No stealth armor or cloaking;
Balance version 2.0

I'll work on an empire.

Just one quick item that may have been overlooked...Intel is currently on...do we want it off?

[geoschmo]

No intel.

[Slynky]

Empire uploaded. (and this little bit of trivia added so that the post can clear)

[Slynky]

Game under way. Thanks again, Alneyan, for going through all the trouble to set up the game manually http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif.

[Slynky]

Well, 20+ turns and lead has changed a few times. Surprised we haven't met but pretty darn soon, I think!

Turns are much slower now...too much to do.

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
Well, 20+ turns and lead has changed a few times. Surprised we haven't met but pretty darn soon, I think!

My temporal scientists have perfected a technology which allows all of my planets and ships to exsist 5 minutes in your future. We aren't cloaked, but you can't see us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:

Slynky said:
Well, 20+ turns and lead has changed a few times. Surprised we haven't met but pretty darn soon, I think!

My temporal scientists have perfected a technology which allows all of my planets and ships to exsist 5 minutes in your future. We aren't cloaked, but you can't see us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Well, I guess that explains it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.

[parabolize]

Parabolize versus VadimBey
Parabolize wins
date 2407.2

[Rathar]

I desire a game please! I think we had agreed upon setup stuff, not sure tho!

Rathar

[Alneyan]

Rathar said:
I desire a game please! I think we had agreed upon setup stuff, not sure tho!



It could be helpful to either check your mails (or PBW, if email notification has been turned off), or upload your Empire; your game has been created on Jan 22, with a news item sent by myself on Jan 25 and Phoenix-D has uploaded his Empire on the same day.

KOTH update to be available tomorrow. I think.

[Rathar]

Hmmm methinks a problem has arisen as I don't have it on my list of games nor did I ever get an E-mail regarding it.!

Rathar

Edit.

Just searched the games listing and saw it there with Rathar playing it and well, I am ratharkalinger for pbw. Theres the problem! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Alneyan]

Woopsie. Yeah, it's my mistake then. That will teach me to rely too much on auto-filling forms.

I'll recreate the game in a couple of minutes. Hmm, could you please send me your Empire directly? I'll do a bit of fiddling with PBW so Phoenix-D doesn't have to re-upload his Empire.

[Rathar]

I can and will but uhmm I don't see any mention of how many points we went with. Would you tell me how many phoenix used? heh heh

Rathar

[Alneyan]

It's been set up, and everything should be alright hopefully.

If you should be playing in a game but don't see any on PBW, you should check the KOTH website (if an update has been made, as the website is often lagging a day or two behind), or complain loudly after 36 or 48 hours. I create games at PBW as soon as possible, so worry if you don't see anything on radar.

[Rathar]

Thank you Alneyan I really appreciate it. Tis my fault for having a different name here than in pbw.

Rathar

[Alneyan]

KOTH has been updated, with mine own naked blade lying on mine lap.

My interest in SE may be rekindled somewhat; I would also love to run into Asmala, sooner or later. Network woes prevented me from joining back KOTH along with him. Shame. Worry not Asmala, for thou shalst be smitten down.

[Phoenix-D]

Are we safe to continue? I did my turn, looks like something went wrong, and when I go to get the next one its Turn 1 again..

[Alneyan]

It looks like a real turn 2 to me, though I can only check it by reseting your password and looking at turn 3. PBW says it's a turn 1, as I forced the upload, but that's expected behaviour.

If the turn you download from PBW says 2400.0 in game, with absolutely nothing done, please yell at me and I'll recreate the game.

The good news is, it looks like you are safe now Slynky, as I'm redirecting all potential screw-ups to someone else. Of course, I blundered with three different games of yours in a row, whereas I did it thrice in the same game this time, but still...

[geoschmo]

Alneyan said:
PBW says it's a turn 1, as I forced the upload, but that's expected behaviour.

When you are processing the next turn offline you should leave the "Replacement turn" box unchecked when you upload it. That way PBW will increment the turn number properly and they won't be out of sync like you are seeing here.

The reason for the check box is if you want to replace the turn without incrementing the turn number. Like in the case where something got messed up with the previous turn processing and you want to rerun it.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

Ok, looks like it kicked over without incident this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[tesco samoa]

K.O.T.H. Tesco Samoa vs Fuzzie

Tesco wins turn 65

Thanks for the good game fuzzie.

[Alneyan]

Thanks for the note Geo.

KOTH has been updated. Of course, this should mean a game will be over in the next few hours (most likely the Hill game), following the recent trend to that effect.

[geoschmo]

Alneyan said:
Of course, this should mean a game will be over in the next few hours (most likely the Hill game), following the recent trend to that effect.

I'm trying to decide if I should be offended at this remark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:

Alneyan said:
Of course, this should mean a game will be over in the next few hours (most likely the Hill game), following the recent trend to that effect.

I'm trying to decide if I should be offended at this remark. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I think he was just going on the amount of time my games have been taking...either getting beat or winning around turn 60.

[Slynky]

Well, that was an ***-stomping! No doubt about that. Though I would have probably lost the battle anyway, I DO feel a bit cheated by the game in that I had 2 fleets moving at 9 each and yet, combat occured one at a time. Something isn't right there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif.

Can you explain why 2 fleets moving at the same speed have combat on different turns? I do that all the time and never have them fight separately.

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
Can you explain why 2 fleets moving at the same speed have combat on different turns? I do that all the time and never have them fight separately.

Well, without looking at your end of the turn I couldn't say for sure. Have you done it through a warp point before. I was thinking about it earlier today because it came up in the other thread and I couldn't remember if I had ever seen it work correctly when my fleets are going through a warp point.

[Slynky]

geoschmo said:

Slynky said:
Can you explain why 2 fleets moving at the same speed have combat on different turns? I do that all the time and never have them fight separately.

Well, without looking at your end of the turn I couldn't say for sure. Have you done it through a warp point before. I was thinking about it earlier today because it came up in the other thread and I couldn't remember if I had ever seen it work correctly when my fleets are going through a warp point.

Well, I can't remember either but I know I attack like that through warp holes all the time because, well, it happens so often that one needs to attack through holes (smile). I divide the ships up with different strategys according to what they do and send them in.

According to the game, movement occurs...ALL movement and if ships occupy enemy sectors at the same time a combat round occurs, then they fight.

I guess I'll have to see what the movement replay looks like but I can promise you this: Last thing I did was check that each fleet moved at 9.

Still, you did damn well and I don't want to take that away from you...but all 60+ ships would have done better than fighting at piecemeal.

[Slynky]

Well, quick update for anyone reading:

Geo, who I never take for granted, has stopped a major insertion attempt of mine. Really, embarrasing! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

I wondered at his strategy and now I see what he's done. Though I've taken quite a hit (like losing 60 ships and killing...what was it (?)... ONE?), I remain positive.

Still, I maintain 1st place (in points) and continue to grow in all areas. BUT, I've ordered stict training rules that must be adherred to from now on! I WOULD threaten commanders with severe punishment but, as we all know, if they fail, they will die anyway (LOL).

[geoschmo]

Slynky said:
I wondered at his strategy and now I see what he's done. Though I've taken quite a hit (like losing 60 ships and killing...what was it (?)... ONE?), I remain positive.


Actually I think in the big battle you didn't kill any, although you may have gotten a few of my fighters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I have lost a few though probing your defenses in various places.

Geoschmo

[Phoenix-D]

..this is one weird game. Without giving too much away, I'll show off the highlight:

I switched to a different atmosphere than I normally use. And now what do my colonizers find but a system with SIX planets..all of the OLD atmosphere type. It would have been a breathable bonanza, but right now its almost useless..

[Slynky]

Phoenix-D said:
..this is one weird game. Without giving too much away, I'll show off the highlight:

I switched to a different atmosphere than I normally use. And now what do my colonizers find but a system with SIX planets..all of the OLD atmosphere type. It would have been a breathable bonanza, but right now its almost useless..

I think that's the Murphy's Law section that applies to SE4. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Rathar]

Same thing on the other side Phoenix.. Remote mining is all I have to say!

Rathar

[Phoenix-D]

This game is going to go on forever- we'll be too broke to kill each other off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Well, we made contact, with a couple minor skirmishes so far. Skirmishes that would have gone better if I hadn't made the newbie mistake of sending a colonizer out *empty*. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[douglas]

Phoenix-D said:
Well, we made contact, with a couple minor skirmishes so far. Skirmishes that would have gone better if I hadn't made the newbie mistake of sending a colonizer out *empty*. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif


Hehe, I remember that mistake. It was such a "DOH!" moment on turn 2 or 3 of the Race to SEV Dertran game when I noticed all three of my first colonizers were empty. I still ended up winning the game, though.

[geoschmo]

I have conceded to Slynky in our King Match on turn 101. Once again he gets the better of me, and once again I climb tooth and nail to the top of the hill only to be dashed to the bottom. I’m not sure, but I think this was my fifth King match, with none of my butt prints on the royal throne cushion to show for it.

This game I tried something a little different. Slynky was quite confused that I appeared to be conceding two-thirds of the map to him from the start. In our many games the normal thing that happens is we both expand at about equal rates and meet about halfway across the map, then he beats me backwards till the end of the game as he always has more ships in the initial border conflicts.

My plan this game was to keep my empire compact. I only expanded as far as my colony ships could go without refueling, and I researched the other colony techs very early on. He would have been surprised at the number of planets I had, despite the difference in the number of systems. The idea was that he would be strung out and I could punch through in the early going and get him on the defensive.

Unfortunately Slynky is even better then I thought as he was able to capture the middle third of the systems I conceded, and he was still able to gather enough defenses at the choke points to resist my initial attacks. Once the borders solidified the numbers started working against me as I knew they would eventually. I was able to hold him off for some time because of the number of colonies I had, but I was never able to effect a formidable enough attack to breakout.

I have played Slynky many, many times in 1v1 battles in Koth and non-Koth games, probably more than anyone else I’ve played. He’s gotten the better of me in almost every case. The only times I’ve won were when he was given a poor starting position on the map. Considering that neither of us likes to play random maps any longer, I feel confident in saying in all seriousnees and no false modesty that I will likely never beat him again.

That’s not to say that I won’t keep trying, I want to return to my place at the bottom of the hill and begin again. I am merely saying, I hope somebody beats him before I get back up there so I have a chance for once. Or at least someone new to beat me down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Slynky]

You're much too gracious.

And you sell yourself short, I think.

Let's recap a bit:

Yes, I was bewildered about how long it took to meet you. The longer it took the more careful I got. For my part, I thought you had taken Religious and were working for the Talisman (and keeping it secret as long as possible). Accordingly, I got cautious as I crossed into the 2nd 2/3's of the map.

When we finally met, I knew you had combat advantage but I figured I had "numbers" advantage. As we (and others know), I thought I could whip you with numbers but your training (and combat advantage) killed me!

I got careful...many, many turns later, I broke through but you showed up with a formidable fleet and I backed down from advancing. It was then I decided I wouldn't attack again till I was sure. That's where a long time passed as I built a fleet of over 100 while a fleet of 55 guarded the hole. Your ship desigh and combat advantage was tough to overcome. My only consolation was I had economics...and, really, I could wait till you could build no more. But, that's boring, and a bit chicken-s--t.

I was amazed at how you handled your economics with only 15-16 systems. That underlines your skill. I had 31 and at one point had 50 yards idle because I didn't plan well. THEN, I over-compensated...so many resources, I couldn't store them fast enough! Finished the game with about 1.3 million mins, .7 million orgs, and .6 million rads in storage.

The one thing I worried about most was you consolidating 2 fleets (gambling) and breaking through a point.

It was a good game, a long game, and played fast. Turns took an hour for the last 20 turns. UGH (LOL).

[Slynky]

over 100 turns in under 3 weeks. Some of those turns taking over an hour! That's pretty fast and dedicated playing in my book. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[geoschmo]

Yes, it almost qualified as a part-time job towards the end there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Phoenix-D]

Well, that was..interesting.

I launched an abortive attack on Rathar in our KOTH game, after being driven from the System Of the Empty Colony. The idea was to sweep over one colony, blast it, and move to the next in the same turn.

Worked fine, except those two colonies just would..not..die. I even sent renforcements in and nothing would kill the blasted things! Then panic set in as a unexpected fleet of 8 emerged from the southern warp point as my attack force ran low on supplies.

There were only two surviors from the resulting butchery. One fled south, taking a colony with him during his death throes. The other fled north. Renforcements raced to the scene, but too late! Rathar's fresh attack force arrived. The CSM-1 armed Alaska managed to inflict some damage during the warp point assult, but no ships were lost.

The renforcements were diverted to the nearest colony to make a stand there while Alaska 001 stood firm, hoping to delay the attack on the system's planets.

What happened next..well, check the attachment. The Digger ships are, like the Alaska, first gen models armed with CSM-1s. The III is armed with PPBs and a Point Defense Cannon.

Someone get this man a medal. Someone get him ALL the medals!

(oops, he's dead. Next combat, same turn- he gravely wounds one of the survivors, but is blown to bits for his trouble )

[Slynky]

Wow, what a ship! Someone round up the bits and pieces of the captain and contact Willow about bringing him back to life ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ...you have to be a Buffy fan to understand)

[Phoenix-D]

KOTH Rathar vs Phoenix-D is over in 51 turns. The enemy having a tech advantage can be overcome. The enemy having a numbers advantage can be overcome.

BOTH, on the other hand..doesn't work out so well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Rathar]

Twas a fun game Phoenix-D. I am really being forced to think that randomness in planet generation is bad however.

I reallllly desire for sheer luck to have a factor in these games but not for said sheer luck to be decisive in any way.

Rathar

[Alneyan]

A much-delayed update has been made available for the good people of the realm. Yay for the first Debian-powered KOTH update!

[Rathar]

Alas we seem to have given you the wrong impression as to whom the victor was, which was I, Rathar and due to mere luck, not phoenix-d.

Rathar

[Alneyan]

Rathar said:
Alas we seem to have given you the wrong impression as to whom the victor was, which was I, Rathar and due to mere luck, not phoenix-d.



That would be correct. However, since I can never be wrong, I won't correct that mistake.

Please, could you start rioting? I so want to see a revolt up close. I'll correct the KOTH page right now.

[Rathar]

I am sorry, for this being the very first incident to upset our people We can only give indifferent (Large piles of police troops you know..)

Thanks

Rathar

[Renegade 13]

Most odd...Glyn and I seem to be missing from the hill! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

This gets us from Indifferent to Angry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Alneyan]

Annoying. Near as I can tell, you are supposed to be on the first level. Is that correct?

By the way, you aren't going to riot anywhere. We only have one world, so this is our homeworld, and the main homeworld never, ever, riots. So, I'm afraid you'll be stuck on Angry.

[Renegade 13]

Yep, we're on the first level. Thanks!

[Glyn]

The reason our game was not listed was because we were using stealth play mode!

[DeKaye]

Geo victor in Geo VS Fuzzie game.

Thanks for a great game Geo. I am amazed at how long I lasted, but have a suspicion you took your time in destroying my wonderful empire. It was kind of like a cat playing with it's prey before it eats it. LOL.

Good luck to you in your next game.

A side note: I just don't understand how you guys can support so many ships. I constantly struggle with resources. I have boosted my Mineral minning abilities and I still have challenges. What's the deal?

Fuzzie

[Alneyan]

Well, either your Empire isn't optimised, or you do not expand fast enough. There is virtually *one* optimal Empire around here, with a couple varieties for the spare points. just don't go too far, like I did right now: 0% reproduction is a major annoyance (bah, I *need* to play offensively now). Maintenance (at least 110%) is particularly important here.

I've always felt SEIV is all about economics, and hence expansion. Fewer colonies on a given turn snowballs into fewer resources, lower technology levels, fewer ships and poorer ones, and so on. When the playing field is more or less equal, and both players will it, then tactics and the like can play a role; I must admit "battle between two fleets" is something I do not indulge in myself.

Of course, I'm also the worst tactician on this side of Betelgeuse, so my whole strategy is ripped off from Space Invaders: if the first wave won't get them, the second one will. Or the third one. Or the Star Destroyers wave. So what if our ships, despite better training, equipement and numbers, get beaten up? Assimilation is inevitable.

[Rathar]

Once I get mining 2 I whip out lots of remote miners (and for extra nice places, at mining 1). This helps a lot with resources as does maintenance picks in the initial empire creation.

Rathar

[Alneyan]

Please note that this is the last KOTH update as you know them. From now on, KOTH updates will be handled by a third party maintainer, and will involve extensive use of Flash, Javascript (and plain Java, of course), and the BLINK tag, among others.

[DeKaye]

Thanks for the advice.

Fuzzie

[geoschmo]

Yes, empire settings cannot make up for rapid expansion. I usually have my mineral production rate somewhat stunted actually, unless it's a high racial point game or something. Lot's and lot's of colonies is the key.

[Renegade 13]

For the first 11 turns, Emergency Build is your friend. What I do every KOTH game is immediately stick my homeworld on E-Build, that way I can pump out a colony ship per turn for 11 turns if so desired (the duration of E-Build). If you don't use it, you can only build one colony ship per two turns, which can really stunt your development in the early game. Of course, you can vary this theme; building a couple base space yards to get a little extra production; build a couple frigate scouts to speed up exploration, etc. Note that the above examples can all be built in a single turn, but ONLY if you have E-Build on.

I'm not entirely sure, but you may also require a bit of a racial trait boost in order to get colony ships/base space yards built in a single turn. But I always like to take a +20% boost to spaceyard rate, so that never an issue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Hope this tip helps!

[Phoenix-D]

Fuzzie: for our game I propose:

-no intel
-no mines

I'm open for any other settings?

[DeKaye]

Ok . And .....

-no intel
-no mines
-manual placement
-rest KOTH default

Is this okay?

Fuzzie


Quote:
"Fuzzie: for our game I propose:

-no intel
-no mines

I'm open for any other settings? "

[Slynky]

Just a comment to both you guys...hehe...NO MINES is a tricky game. Manual placment almost a must. But tip of the hat goes to careful gaming without mines. It's a lot more "wide open".

Have fun!

[DeKaye]

Thanks for the advice Slynky. I played my last game with no mines, and I enjoyed it. I didn't have to take up time cranking out mines and mine layers. It indeed is a different game. Mines in a game does have a lot of advantages.

Fuzzie

[Phoenix-D]

I'd be more favorable toward mines if the sweeping method wasn't so absurd.

Those settings are acceptable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Renegade 13]

Renegade 13 surrenders to Glyn.

I'm not sure where I went wrong, but somewhere I did! Congratulations Glyn, and good luck!

I look forward to my next ***-kicking http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Glyn]

Thanks for the game Renegade. What did you think of the balance mod?

I think, I’m learning how to be more effective in [balance mod] expansion. I don’t known about others, but I find it better not to colonize the best planet first in each system. Chose a world with about 3 to 5 slots first. Build the Shipyard and space port. That way by the time the second colony ship get to the system or is build in system you can safely colonize the breathable world and build facilities for the next twenty turns without locking up your shipyard.

If there is anyway possible to eliminate planet and moons of being the same type (IE 2 rock types or 2 Ice types) it needs to be done in the balance mod. I had three such jewels in my empire. Two of which were placed conveniently for ship training on the way to the front.

I’m ready for some system variety in my next game.

[Alneyan]

If you don't mind, I'll wait for another game to wrap up before updating. It looks like games finish in clusters, so that should work out alright. Besides, I *promised* worse updates, so I should deliver the goods.

I don't handle Balance mod expansion very well, at least compared to my expansion in the standard game. Still, we agree on one thing: the SY planet should be pretty bad and be settled soon, unless the system is contested. Of course, this implies that the system will get only one SY to begin with (for further expansion).

I do not worry about spaceports unless I need resources, though. If I see a huge breathable, I will settle it as soon as possible and start building facilities there, even if there isn't any spaceport. The rationale is to fill it up as fast as possible, and a spaceport can always come in later (it only takes two turns to build with EB, at no cost if used on ordinary planets). I know I'm happy when I almost, but not quite, manage to collapse my economy during expansion.

[Thermodyne]

Well I guess I'll test the water again and put my name back in the ring.

[Alneyan]

KOTH has been updated again, and this update message was brought to you by some extreme, bleeding-edge technology. Okay, so it was Lynx, because of (again) ISP woes.

[Gozra]

Gozra AKA Gozguy has surrendered to Asmala
Sorry I did not give you a better game.
Well played Asmala

[Asmala]

Thanks for the game Gozguy. Next time you should keep a closer eye on your colony ships. I was able to capture two of them and after that it is very difficult to win a game.

[Slynky]

So, Asmala, what shall our "poison" be? Setting suggestions?

[Rathar]

This game of Geo's and I is going to be quick, either due to a possible restart or due to quick and dirty death.

We started so close that if we had sent ships in the right direction we would've met on turn 2, instead of 5.. heh heh.

Not that I am ancient but it's apparent to see where Alneyan started us and where the blasted computer chose to put the other two of our 3 planet start and I doubt it could have deliberately have chosen us closer beginnings!

Either looks like fun, or like too much fun too fast!

Rathar

[Alneyan]

Yup, same old "feature" with multiple homeworlds. I don't think I gave you manual placement, though, since the settings I received were "3 Good planets
Balance mod
no mines/intel/stellar
low tech start
5 k racial points" (manual placement is not default)

You can always check with Geo whether you intended manual placement, and perhaps ask for a restart. It could change very little, though: you can end up with a homeworld three systems ahead of your starting point, which would be halfway to the other starting point or so, on a small map.

[Asmala]

Slynky said:
So, Asmala, what shall our "poison" be? Setting suggestions?



Defaults are fine with me but if you want something I'm almost sure I'll agree.

[Slynky]

Asmala said:

Slynky said:
So, Asmala, what shall our "poison" be? Setting suggestions?



Defaults are fine with me but if you want something I'm almost sure I'll agree.

Well, how about:

(1) - Manual placement (so one of us doesn't get placed in a dead end and the other along the only path out, for example);

(2) - Geo Balance Mod v. 2 (so one of us doesn't find out he's on the side where all the nebulas are and the other is loaded with planets, for example);

(3) - Turn off the following:
Intel;
Stellar Manipulation;
Religious

(4) - KOTH defaults except:
3 GOOD starting planets;
Warp holes anywhere

----------------------------------------

Additional optional rules for you, if you want to make it a fair game:

You cannot have more than 5 ships in a fleet;
You cannot lay mines;
No ship above the size of destroyer;
You can only settle one planet per system.

There! Maybe now I'll have a chance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Asmala]

Slynky said:

Asmala said:

Slynky said:
So, Asmala, what shall our "poison" be? Setting suggestions?



Defaults are fine with me but if you want something I'm almost sure I'll agree.

Well, how about:

(1) - Manual placement (so one of us doesn't get placed in a dead end and the other along the only path out, for example);

(2) - Geo Balance Mod v. 2 (so one of us doesn't find out he's on the side where all the nebulas are and the other is loaded with planets, for example);

(3) - Turn off the following:
Intel;
Stellar Manipulation;
Religious

(4) - KOTH defaults except:
3 GOOD starting planets;
Warp holes anywhere

----------------------------------------

Additional optional rules for you, if you want to make it a fair game:

You cannot have more than 5 ships in a fleet;
You cannot lay mines;
No ship above the size of destroyer;
You can only settle one planet per system.

There! Maybe now I'll have a chance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



These settings are fine with me, though I think those additional rules should apply to you, considering the fact it's over a year from your last KOTH defeat!

[Slynky]

So, we have game settings!

A year? Not actually, because you were gone a year and Alneyan and Master Belisarius were on the throne a bit. Well, for part of my time, I yawned. And remember, it's not like I had the likes of Rex, you, Alneyan, and Stone challenging me. And Geo's game lasted a 100 turns! And let's not discount Parabolize, my personal nemisis.

Anyway, hoping I can last 50 turns!

[Thermodyne]

GosGUY and Thermodyne have agreed on game settings.

OK std game. (no mods)

Small map
No events
No Intel
No stellar manip.
1 good planet
2000 racial points
Low start tech

Everything else is default.

[Asmala]

Slynky said:
A year? Not actually, because you were gone a year and Alneyan and Master Belisarius were on the throne a bit. Well, for part of my time, I yawned. And remember, it's not like I had the likes of Rex, you, Alneyan, and Stone challenging me. And Geo's game lasted a 100 turns! And let's not discount Parabolize, my personal nemisis.

Anyway, hoping I can last 50 turns!



Well, according to KOTH page your last defeat was Feb 8,2005 against Joachim... That's over a year for me so your bluff failed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Slynky]

Asmala said:

Slynky said:
A year? Not actually, because you were gone a year and Alneyan and Master Belisarius were on the throne a bit. Well, for part of my time, I yawned. And remember, it's not like I had the likes of Rex, you, Alneyan, and Stone challenging me. And Geo's game lasted a 100 turns! And let's not discount Parabolize, my personal nemisis.

Anyway, hoping I can last 50 turns!


Well, according to KOTH page your last defeat was Feb 8,2005 against Joachim... That's over a year for me so your bluff failed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ahhh, my bad. I was thinking of how long I've been on the throne...and that's only been since August of last year.

[Alneyan]

In the latest KOTH update, the fiery Asmala knocked out his courageous opponent, thereby putting him again on the second spot of the all-time KOTH rankings with 17 wins. The second spot was formerly held by Geoschmo, who had got his 17th win a few days ago, and snuck right under Asmala's nose.

As Asmala raced past Geoschmo, he smirked and said "So there", and sticked his tongue out at his unfortunate opponent. Geoschmo was found doing odd stuff soon afterwards, including some command-line editing and things of the like. When questioned, he replied he was busy with "PBW admin stuff"; our chief investigator reports seeing the words "Wanna delete the account of this (l)user?" before being sent to the nearest hospital by a bunch of heavy-handed Spanish Inquisition men at arms.

This was KOTH daily, brought to you by the Borg. "When you think life is hopeless, do yourself a savour, and surrender your existence to us. You will save yourself a lot of pain, and us some hard work. You too can make the universe a happier, better place!"

[Phoenix-D]

Hmm. Looks like I still hold the record for "longest RL time" game, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Rathar]

This has to be near the shortest! 18 turns, back to the bottom I go!

Rathar

[geoschmo]

Games tend to go quickly when you start so close together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A good game nonetheless. You fought well. There wasn't much in the way of strategy, just build as many ships as I could as fast as I could and keep throwing them at you.

I was suprised that you didn't try to collect your ships for a large assault at the end there. You seemed to throw them at my fleet one and two at a time. Was there a concious decision there or just desperation?

That fleet was running on fumes at the end there. I didn't have enough fuel to run, and barely enough to take out the one homeworld that I managed to kill. It's possible that if you had held up your attacks for one turn to get a decent size fleet together you might have driven me out of your system. Of course I had already damaged you at that point and you hadn't gotten to any of my colonies so it probably wouldn't have mattered in the end. But you could have dragged it out for a while longer.

[Rathar]

Yeah..

I had figured out the fumes part and knew if I could take a second to group up my ships would have killed yours as well, they were better armed I think but it's rather difficult to take a turn to regroup when the enemy is sitting at your homeworld dropping rocks on it, heh heh.

I also wanted to try to waste your supplies with individual attacks.

I tried to give ships wierd move orders so they would come at you in waves but thats hard to work out.

Well, this game was my first with a balance map and showed me to definitely insist on manual placement!

Good fun!
Rathar

[Glyn]

Mwbard surrendered to Glyn.

Thanks for the game Mwbard. I had colonized about half the systems and Mwbard had about a quarter of the system the other quarter were nebula & asteroids. It didn’t help that in the early game, my missile ships took out three of his colonies and isolated a forth, giving me control of a system next to his home system.

[Alneyan]

Please note that KOTH has been updated, even though most universities in France are currently "on strike" (if you can consider a university to be striking, or plain "lock down" to be a strike). The rules have also been updated somewhat, with the most notable change being the removal of the Non-Gold league. I am *that* dedicated to your welfare and happiness. Please write down "Alneyan" when you next cast your ballot. I truly am the most skilled KOTH admin out there.

Don't anyone dare ruin my little speech by pointing out I was late in updating the website (especially the rules page). Accidents happen every now and then, even in a realm governed so wisely and kind-heartedly. You can never play it *too* safe. This message was brought to you by The Insight, the only newspaper made by people like *you* that you can trust.

[geoschmo]

Glyn, I haven't been able to get my yahoo email to work all day. I did get your message, but I haven't been able to reply. I'm cool with no intel, and would suggest no mines and no stellar manip as well if you are willing.

Geoschmo

[Glyn]

Geo,

Fine by me.

No Intel
No Mines
No Stellar Manip.

Lets add:
One Good homeworld?

Anything else?

[geoschmo]

Do you want manual placement? If so we need to specify it. I'm cool either way. I tend to well in games where I start close to the other player. But I know a lot of people prefer some space. Other than that I'm good with what you've mentioned here.

[Glyn]

Geo,
I'm fine with random placement.

No Intel, No Mines, and No Stellar Manip.
One Good Homeworld
everything else is standard KOTH.

I'll upload my empire tonight.

looking forward to a good game.

[Slynky]

KOTH Match:

Just to report, Asmala is as dangerous as always. Now, mind you, I don't mind having a good game and getting beat. This one is loaded with strategy as we have stuff going on a few different places (mostly me losing).

However, what IS embarrasing is that he owns less of the galaxy than I do, and does his turns in about 11 minutes (while I take half an hour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif).

Oh well. It's an interesting game. Now I just need to try to last at least 50 turns (like I said in the beginning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif).

[Alneyan]

If you have been waiting on me recently, be advised my graphic card has died. I now have a new one up and running, and I should be able to catch up. Well, unless yet another part of the computer decides to stop working.

[Slynky]

I've often wondered if one were so good at some sort of game if it would become boring to whip people's asses all the time. Well, I guess I'll never know but maybe Asmala can say something on the subject. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Just in case he DOES get bored whipping asses, I figured I'd spare him the yawns and surrender. I could add some (possibly) humorous little ditty about wanting to same my people from destruction but to tell the truth, the lazy bastards should die! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/firedevil.gif

Now, it could have possibly been a bit more interesting if I hadn't copied a colony ship design to a destroyer and altered it to become a minelayer and NEVER ADDED THE 6TH ENGINE! Or, perhaps, if I hadn't built 9 light carriers at various places to be defensive rammers at warpholes WITHOUT ANY ENGINES AT ALL! Then, the little matter of giving orders to an early colony ship, then canceling the order, and then deciding to move it toward an unknown system WITHOUT POPULATION (and having to divert it to get some).

But, I'm sure the outcome would have been the same anyway. Asmala seemed to be 3-4 turns ahead of me most of the game.

All hail the returning KING!

(nice lesson, my Finnish [fiendish] friend) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Asmala]

Thanks for the good game Slynky. I was a bit scared when I saw your PPB ships when I had only DUCs. However my early Advanced Military Science research paid off when I attacked you. I believe you didn't have trained fleets and ships, and even though you had PPBs against my DUCs I won the battle(s).

This was my first game using Geo's Balance Mod v.2, and I've nothing else to say that it is a very good mod. It's much more interesting to explore the galazy than in the former only-medium-sized-planets mod, but the new mod is still well balanced.

[Slynky]

Asmala said:
Thanks for the good game Slynky. I was a bit scared when I saw your PPB ships when I had only DUCs. However my early Advanced Military Science research paid off when I attacked you. I believe you didn't have trained fleets and ships, and even though you had PPBs against my DUCs I won the battle(s).

When we had our first (big) battles, my fleet was trained to 20% but the ships in the fleet were at different numbers.

As I said, it seems you were always about 4 turns ahead of me. The last attack yu made happened as I refitted nearly all of my cruisers to place Sensor 3's on them. You attacked after the retrofit and before repair. That is one reason you killed all the cruisers in that last battle, I think.

[Alneyan]

KOTH has been updated, following the Appomattox Slynky has witnessed. Shame you never had any King to behead, though. History is so much less fun without kingslayers, Lord Protectors, usurpers, kingmakers and whatnot.

I'm readying for my own Berezina myself... or perhaps it will be Fort Alamo, or even Castillon, on the side of the English, of course. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I'm open to suggestions.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:
KOTH has been updated, following the Appomattox Slynky has witnessed. Shame you never had any King to behead, though. History is so much less fun without kingslayers, Lord Protectors, usurpers, kingmakers and whatnot.

I'm readying for my own Berezina myself... or perhaps it will be Fort Alamo, or even Castillon, on the side of the English, of course. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I'm open to suggestions.

I noticed you avoided the use of "Waterloo" ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

[Alneyan]

I know you would notice, Mister Gettysburg. There are battles galore in military history, but not all of them are equal in importance (I'm sure you liked the battle of Nashville, though). And then you have those battles that are technically a victory, but a bitter one, as in Bull Run: Take Two ("Second Battle of Bull Run" is such a dull name"). Not to mention battles like Saragota, where...

I guess it all broke down with Saragota. I actually thought about using Waterloo, but decided to go with the Berezina instead. The whole campaign of Russia wasn't exactly the best idea in the world, and it has taken a pretty strong meaning in French as a plain noun. If you insist on a proper battle, I guess it'll have to be Traffalgar... or Agincourt, Crécy and L'Ecluse for a different theatre.

[Renegade 13]

Renegade 13 has defeated Rand.

I controlled about 70% of the galaxy, and though we hadn't had any major fights yet, Rand knew he could not prevail and thus surrendered.

Please move me on up Alneyan!

Good luck in your next game Rand!

[Alneyan]

Geoschmo, please meet us tomorrow out of town. The gentleman and myself will fight to the death, like men ought to. And don't forget to bring my new sabre, right?

Regarding settings, here are my most important preferences (I'm taking the initiative, since I'm going to bed soon); I'm pretty neutral regarding the rest of the settings.
- I prefer manual placement, since the random placement is highly random ("Evenly distributed?" That's wishful thinking pilot!).
- I prefer not to use balanced systems, since I feel they remove a part of the game (adaptability to the resources available), while strengthening another random aspect, namely the wormholes and where they lead. A disadvantageous system layout is more damaging in balanced systems, where all systems are created equal, than in a more random game, where fewer/harder to defend systems can be compensated by better planets.
- Regardless, I am not against ditching some of the poorer system types (blackholes, infestations...), or even all of them but "regular" systems. I'm fine with any option here.

With regards to the rest of the settings, let's just say I'm fine with most of them (so long as you aren't planning to forbid *all* tech areas, or some such *Whistles*). I'm also open to more exotic settings, if you would like something out of the KOTH ordinary. So, please name your poison, and I'll accommodate.

[Renegade 13]

It's you and I who shall meet on the field of battle, correct Alneyan? Assuming it is, I'll respond to the latest post as though it is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

- Manual placement sounds good to me. I've been stuck behind a blackhole or two myself at times.
- I also do not like balanced systems, for much the same reasons you specified.
- Hmm...I leave it to your discretion as to whether or not the 'bad' system types should be removed. It honestly doesn't matter to me.

As for other settings, how does this strike you?

- No Intel
- 3 planet, GOOD start

Those are my only desires, if you have any others you'd like to propose I'm certain I'll be happy with them.

[Alneyan]

Hmm, looks like I had forgotten to name my target. You are the one indeed.

I suggest going with the middle way for the map, and ditching the truly empty systems (blackholes, nebulas, infestions, forming stars and dying stars).

You may also wish to turn off Stellar Manipulation (unless you like the SM race), since I'm a known Warp Opener/Closer junkie... well, I guess I'm second to Asmala in that field.

I'm fine with three good homeworlds and no intelligence; I find it easy enough to switch off my brain.

[Slynky]

Alneyan said:...since I'm a known Warp Opener/Closer junkie... well, I guess I'm second to Asmala in that field.



I get no respect. NONE at all... *sniff*

[Renegade 13]

Alneyan said:
You may also wish to turn off Stellar Manipulation (unless you like the SM race), since I'm a known Warp Opener/Closer junkie... well, I guess I'm second to Asmala in that field.

I'm fine with three good homeworlds and no intelligence; I find it easy enough to switch off my brain.


Ah yes, I'd be quite happy to not have Stellar Manipulation in this game. I'm not a fan of that particular race, it's too unbalancing I think.

I too find it easy to turn off my brain...I do it most of the time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Your suggestion for empty systems looks good as well.

[Slynky]

Well, I'm available to set up the game in the next hour or so if you guys are interested...

[Alneyan]

Respect costs extra, Slynky. Besides, you know, Asmala is the king, the previous KOTH admin, and so on, so I feel obliged to show deference and... Okay, so I gotta suck up to him too.

I'm interested in your setting up the game in the next hour or so... or later than that, for that matter.

The settings seem to be:
- No intel
- No Stellar Manipulation
- 3 good homeworlds
- Manual placement
- The following system types are out (listed in the order they show up in SystemTypes.txt): Storm, Black hole, Comet, Stellar Core Fragment, Green Giant, Nebulae, Nova, Organic Infestation, Red Giant, Spatial Rupture, Star Forming. Hmm, that's plenty of empty systems.

[Slynky]

Well, I can handle all the regular settings but someone will have to tell me how to NOT generate crappy systems. I'll check the map, of course, to make sure none were generated.

[Alneyan]

Renegade, you may wish to chime in regarding the actual list: I had forgotten some system types, and you might wish to have some of the more interesting ones (nebulae come to mind) in the game.

Slynky, you'll have to use a mod, or do some file swapping. If you want to use a mod, copy all data files in a new folder (named, say, "Alneyan_is_a_nuisance", and edit your path.txt file to say the mod is "Alneyan_is_a_nuisance"). Replace the SystemTypes.txt in your new folder with the one attached to this post.

Swapping files should go faster, though. Rename your current Data/SystemTypes.txt and put the one attached to this post in its place. I have removed all the system types listed below. Hopefully, I didn't leave a dreaded double blank line in there.

[Slynky]

File-swapping is easy.

Time is running out (I need to go somewhere soon) and I hesitate to create a game since Geo might be the next best chance and have heard nothing form Renegade 13.

[geoschmo]

I'm sorry were you guys needing me to set something up here?

[geoschmo]

Ok, it didn't look like Slynky had setup a game on PBW yet so I created one and joined you both to it. If this has already been taken care of just ignore my game and I'll delete it.

Are you guys wanting the balance mod or something, or just a random map minus the system types you've listed below.

Also, do you want random placement or assigned starting positions?

[Slynky]

No, Geo, you're spot on.

I was around this afternoon and offered to set up the game because I had seen messages from both peeps and thought they might be around and waiting. But I had limited time, so I didn't actually create the game on PBW till I had a "go" from both players. When it got too late (had to go do something), I mentioned I hadn't even created the game.

So, when they are ready, have at it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Renegade 13]

Sorry for not being around to respond Slynky, was chasing cattle around for a few hours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Alneyan, I leave whether or not to leave Nebulae and other interesting system types in the game to your esteemed judgement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am neutral. Besides that, the settings you mentioned all sound good.

[Phoenix-D]

Phoenix-D v Fuzzie: Fuzzie surrenders on Turn 86, just before my battle fleet incinerates his homeworld.

It was a bit of an odd game, thanks to my racial setup: massive construction rate, -25% to defense. I went for Stealth armor early, letting me get a nasty sneak atttack in, but I think it was really numbers and tech that won the day.

[Rathar]

Rathar surrenders to the empire of Dex Solo.

Watch out for this fellow folks. Their first koth game and while they were missing lots of things in the bag of tricks he still managed to hand me my ***! Got to 100 turns, could have fought on longer but the end was apparent.

Quite demoralizing as I thought I was at least an ok player!

I'd say put me back on the bottom but I am already there!

Rathar