Babylon 5 Mod [Archive] - Page 11

pathfinder

December 27th, 2002, 01:53 AM

No problem on mailing them. I'll copy then send them to you. Have fun in France!
What I have are:

From Militaries of the League 2:

Battleglobe: Capital Ship, 1-5 Surge cannons (I count 20?), spark field

Warsphere: Capital Ship, 1-5 Surge Cannons (24?), EM Bolter, Spark Field (2?), 6 fighters

Carrier Cube: Capital Ship, 1-5 Surge Cannons (12?), Resonance Generator (4?), Spark Field (2?), 12 Fighters

Battlehex: Hvy Combat vehicle, 1-5 Surge Cannons (12?), Resonance Generator

Tetraship: Medium Combat Vehicle, Surge BLaster, EM Pulsar (4?)

Urchin Heavy Fighters: Light Surge BLaster

Variants 5:

Resohex: Hvy Combat Vehicle, Resonance Generator (9?)

Surgesphere: Capital Ship, 1-5 Surge Cannon ( Icount 30?---maybe 1-5 per turret/mount?), Spark Field, 6 Fighters

Heavy Carrier Cube: Capital Ship, Resonance Generator, Spark Field (2?), EM Pulsar (8?), 18 Fighters

Tetra Escort: Medium Ship, EM Pulsar (6?), Spark Field

Boltlobe: Capital Ship, EM Bolter (12?), Spark Field

[ December 27, 2002, 00:37: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

December 27th, 2002, 02:58 AM

Nomor: Could you send me all the SCS pdf files you have about the Ipsha?

pathfinder

December 27th, 2002, 07:05 AM

Got rid of lvl 11 (dreadnought) RCE with Minbari in current game by changing that max hull size for ship builder to 910Kt. Also changed (in vehiclesize.txt file) to 0 the value for cargo for large tug...

So AGoetz good find http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'll have to check and see if I changed any other data (like min/max speed [number engines])...

Timstone

December 27th, 2002, 11:05 AM

PF: Could you please add the descriptions of the ships? I have The ones from Militaries of the League 2, but not the ones from Variants 5.
If you could mail me all of those, I'm a happy man.
Thanks, bye!

Timstone

December 27th, 2002, 11:05 AM

PF: So only send those from Variants 5. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

pathfinder

December 27th, 2002, 01:43 PM

Timstone: Will do IF I get to work today (stupid starter went bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )

Sent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ December 27, 2002, 22:35: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

December 28th, 2002, 02:19 AM

Gaim: bulkheads (armor) causing RCE (space used cause they load up on them). anyway to limit the amount used but still enable AI to use armor?

[ December 28, 2002, 00:19: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Captain Kwok

December 28th, 2002, 02:29 AM

To the Bab5 team:

What has been the greatest challenge or caused the most problems in building this mod?

pathfinder

December 28th, 2002, 02:36 AM

Capt Kwok: IMHO is getting rid of RCE's caused by the QNP (engines/hulls & running out of space/exceeding space due to fitting of engines in new hull size). In other words the "many small engines" is giving me fits (especially since I don't fully understand it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

[ December 28, 2002, 00:37: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

December 28th, 2002, 06:04 PM

My head hurts.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Resolving the problems due to QNP is giving me a migraine..hehe

finally got the AI to accept heavy & super carrier hulls without RCE. Now the problem, IMHO, is that the darn things go too fast. Somehow I get kinda ill seeing Battleships and Dreadnoughts zipping along at 25-35 spaces per turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif . But at least the RCEs are gone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Suicide Junkie

December 28th, 2002, 08:54 PM

Sounds like the engine thrust needs to be scaled down a bit.

Can't you just load up the capital ships with weapons, armor and misc components, and then have the engines fill in the remaining space?

Set minimum engines and desired engines to something very low.
Then at the end of the misc abilities, add "standard movement", with "spaces per one :=1"

pathfinder

December 28th, 2002, 09:18 PM

SJ: I am not sure what settings to use to determine amount weapons and especially armor.

Hmmm...all the ships (all sizes) have that standard ship movement set at 25...??

one reason for the RCE was the AI trying to fit engines in after all that other stuff but exceeding the hull size in order to fit them in or so it appeared so to me.

[ December 28, 2002, 19:31: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

December 29th, 2002, 05:36 AM

Finally got rid of the Gaim ship builder RCE....had to fiddle with the min/max engines per move

Picard

December 30th, 2002, 05:02 AM

Hi

I had a question. I atempted to load mod in Space Empires IV Gold but came with alot of data errors and was unable to play the game. I also loaded the updates. Has anyone else experienced this problem. I also had the same problem with the sci fi crossover mod. I have the latest Version of the image mod and the quadrant mod.

pathfinder

December 30th, 2002, 05:26 AM

Picard: The MOD, in current form, is for non-gold. One gamer is trying his/her hand at changing it to gold but sure how long before it is done. not to mention it is hardly in complete form yet...

ALL: I maay be onto getting the ship hull/engine problems more or less fixed (thanks to SJ's suggestions on movement min/max and standard movement). Didn't do exactly as he said and need to tweek the snmaller ships a bit but seems to be on the way to a go...

[ December 30, 2002, 03:28: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

December 30th, 2002, 03:22 PM

Hi everyone, I'm back!
Wow, Paris rocks by night! All is nice and quiet 6 in the morning, even in Paris.

PF: Thanks for the pics. I've send you an e-mail.

All: I know I've asked this before, but I need a reminder. When does the new DVD box (season 2) of Babylon 5 come out?

pathfinder

December 31st, 2002, 05:43 AM

So far the testing and tweaking is going ok (Abbai vs Minbari as a test). May need some tweaking but so far looks promising. Wednesday I'll continue and see if the larger ships do ok.

This is the engine/hull (hope no RCE) test..

Still can't the AI to design well for a full tech game (do not install engines! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif )

[ December 31, 2002, 03:48: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 01:34 PM

Is there any news from Val? What the heck is he doing?!

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 03:24 PM

Been awhile since I e-mailed him. Guess it wouldn't hurt...

He was going on holiday/vacation (Las Vegas) when contact was lost..

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 03:31 PM

Do you the honors, or do I?

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 03:54 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Just did it...

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 03:57 PM

SJ, Rollo, any other knowledgeable folks: Why would the AI start putting cargo pods in attack ships (ATM destroyers and frigates)? No requirement for such in vehiclesize.txt nor are there calls for that in AI_designcreation.txt.

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by pathfinder:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Just did it...Ah, great. Hope he quickly returns.

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 05:16 PM

Timstone: e-mailed you a word document where I transcribed the Ipsha ship variant background material.

and BTW, my e-mail to Val failed. Seems he hasn't been cleaning it out.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[ January 01, 2003, 16:50: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 07:23 PM

PF: Thanks for the texts! I really like to read those and sometimes it give little hint on how the ship looks like.
A pity that the e-mail to Val failed.

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 07:52 PM

Found out why the Abbai were adding external cargo pods to their frigates, corvettes and destroyers: External cargo pods have an "ability" as armor...bleah. Now the AI won't get armor into designs because I refuse to add armor (~10 kt for "normal" armor sections) to AI_designcreations just to have 75KT external pods added as "armor" when the space is better used for weapons and/or sensors/ecm or "normal" armor!

[ January 01, 2003, 17:52: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 08:30 PM

A question. I'm busy with the Ipsha shipset and I was thinking about the background. Would it be nice to give the ships a different background than the standard black?

Rojero

January 1st, 2003, 08:36 PM

Its your shipset man...do whatever you want...but black is a universal... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
But again its up to ya

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 08:49 PM

The only problem with a different background would be in nebulae, black holes, etc (IIRC). The ships would have that background instead of the nebula. The black acts like blue or pink does in other games.... so if you have a starry background it would stick out as "different" against the SEIV sector background..

[ January 01, 2003, 19:03: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 1st, 2003, 09:18 PM

PF: I meant the 128x128 pics. I know the "limitations" of the mini's. This afternoon I was busy searching suitable backgrounds and I found a lot on the site of the Hubble telescope. I guess I just experiment with them.

pathfinder

January 1st, 2003, 09:26 PM

Ah, oh..hehe....its your set http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 02:22 AM

Timstone: NO, no word from Val since the end of November.

Timstone

January 2nd, 2003, 02:46 AM

Can't we just send an e-mail to him, asking what's wrong?

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 04:32 AM

Anuther question: How the blue blazes do I get the &^%$# idiot AI to build defenses? The Minbari are getting the poo beat out of them because they simply refuse to build planetary defenses and darn few attack-type ships for defense. Looks to me like they are still in exploration by the numbers of colony ships spewing out.

Rambie

January 2nd, 2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Timstone:
A question. I'm busy with the Ipsha shipset and I was thinking about the background. Would it be nice to give the ships a different background than the standard black?The portrait picutres don't usually use masking, but do sometimes, so you can put a background if you want.

Do a Google for a site call "Babylon 5 the place to be", they have some B5 models and nebula stuff.

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 01:42 PM

ATM the only ship still having RCEs are the assault ships...

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 06:09 PM

Rollo: Yes, there are limits to number of engines. The number depends on the size hull. There is also that standard movement line(s) (for each ship in designcreation). The regular files can be gotten from Rambie's site:

http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm

When I get back from the doctor's I'll post the Abbai, Minbari and shipsize files I have modified to get rid of the RCEs. The only one that is still a BIG problem is the assault (boarding) ship. Probably an adjustment to number of boarding components (breach pods) would fix this. Or add the data for levels of assault ships (heavy destoyer to cruiser?) with restrictions would fix it.

[ January 02, 2003, 16:13: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 09:05 PM

Rollo:

1041534166.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1041534166.ZIP)

Some files I am experiemnting with to rid the B5 MOD of range check errors. Readme hopefully explains some of what the MOD does.

Update (sorta): got rid of the Abbai Assault ship RCE by limiting the Assault ship to size 300KT (was 300-500KT), now it has speed of 46!? :rolleyes"

[ January 02, 2003, 19:54: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 2nd, 2003, 10:51 PM

I've experimented with a few diffirent backgrounds and I decided against it. The light on the vehicles would be the same as the background and produce a very dark vehicle. If I let the light shine from the front, the background looks downright ridiculous. Maybe I'll give them all backgrounds when I spot a nice one, but for the moment, black is the background color.

pathfinder

January 2nd, 2003, 11:59 PM

SO far, the only way I can get rid of the assault ship RCE is to get rid of the "standard movement" lines for that ship...

OR to have armor as an ability and get those magnifigant external cargo "armor" pods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ January 02, 2003, 22:04: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Rollo

January 3rd, 2003, 12:35 AM

I have looked at the files a bit and have a suggestion. Raise the desired speed, think desired thrust. So for a cruiser hull (10 thrust per move) that should travel, say, 7 spaces per turn, put a desired speed (thrust) of 70 and remove the standard movement lines.

One other question: how is the AI going to use armor? The armor components that I saw so far have no abilities that can be called for in the designcreation. If you want the AI able to use armor, I suggest adding a bogus ability (star - unstable, if that is unused yet) and put the following lines at the end of each design:

Misc Ability x Name := Star - Unstable
Misc Ability x Spaces Per One := 1

That should fill your designs with armor instead of engines, avoiding RCEs and placement of the (armor) cargo pods.

I saw that you already have a seperate design for many different sizes, which is good. Using desired speed as described above you should be able to make designs as you want.

Hope that helps,
Rollo

Rollo

January 3rd, 2003, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by pathfinder:
Rollo: Yes, there are limits to number of engines...I was talking about engine limits for hulls. You know, like maximum of 10 engines for a destroyer or 20 for an LC or whatever. What I have seen so far all the hulls have a limit of 254 (just short of the RCE). But that's okay. Using desired speed as already desribed hopefully gives you what you want.

Originally posted by pathfinder:
...Update (sorta): got rid of the Abbai Assault ship RCE by limiting the Assault ship to size 300KT (was 300-500KT), now it has speed of 46!? :rolleyes"I suppose that has to do with the modded vehicle sizes that you included in your zip. The values of engines per move seem way too low in that one.

pathfinder

January 3rd, 2003, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Rollo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pathfinder:
Rollo: Yes, there are limits to number of engines...I was talking about engine limits for hulls. You know, like maximum of 10 engines for a destroyer or 20 for an LC or whatever. What I have seen so far all the hulls have a limit of 254 (just short of the RCE). But that's okay. Using desired speed as already desribed hopefully gives you what you want.

Attack ships and carriers pretty much do ok. It is the "specialty" ships (assult ship, troop transport, ship builder) that seem to be the main problem.

Originally posted by pathfinder:
...Update (sorta): got rid of the Abbai Assault ship RCE by limiting the Assault ship to size 300KT (was 300-500KT), now it has speed of 46!? :rolleyes"I suppose that has to do with the modded vehicle sizes that you included in your zip. The values of engines per move seem way too low in that one.<hr /></blockquote>I'll have to see what I can do with this per your suggestion in the post below this one.

[ January 02, 2003, 23:18: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Rollo

January 3rd, 2003, 02:04 AM

Pathfinder, I know almost nothing of the B5 mod, but willing to help out with some AI issues.

concerning the cargo pods: the AI will fill up unused space in the designs with the primary components and the best armor.
Best armor is the component that has the highest tech requirement (sum of needed tech levels) and is furthest down the component list (of course having the armor ability as well).
The AI can be tricked into using a specific component by adding redundant tech levels and/or bogus abilities.

concerning the ship designs: I need more info on that. I know it has QNP. Is there any limit on the number of engines for designs? generally speaking it is always a good idea to make several designs for ships. it is very hard to come up with designs that work from 10 to 5000 kT and are valid for all tech stages.

Minbari defenses: i need the latest file for reseach, design, vehicle_construction and unit_construction to be able to help.

Where can i find the latest Version of this mod? also a short summary on the main features would be of great help.

Rollo

[ January 02, 2003, 12:06: Message edited by: Rollo ]

pathfinder

January 3rd, 2003, 02:41 AM

RCes are gone. Gonna start new game to verify.... so far so good!

Thanks Rollo!

and bTW Val (along with others) is one who designed this. Me just doing the AI_designcreation and AI_research files....

Rambie

January 3rd, 2003, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by pathfinder:
RCes are gone. Gonna start new game to verify.... so far so good!

Thanks Rollo!

and bTW Val (along with others) is one who designed this. Me just doing the AI_designcreation and AI_research files....Now, Pathfinder, you've done allot to keep things moving lately too... don't sell yourself short.

Timstone

January 3rd, 2003, 10:47 AM

I agree with Rambie, you deserve credit too.

Rollo

January 3rd, 2003, 06:16 PM

Well, I am glad I could help. Let me know, if you have any other problems.

I have one suggestion to use scout ships. That helps the AI a great deal. I noticed that you have a scout ship class, but that is an attack ship. In order to be effective scouts, they need to be attack bases.

Here is a design that I found working pretty good:

Name := Scout
Design Type := Attack Base
Vehicle Type := Ship
Default Strategy := Don't Get Hurt
Size Minimum Tonnage := 10
Size Maximum Tonnage := 100
Num Must Have At Least 1 Ability := 2
Must Have Ability 1 := Solar Supply Generation
Must Have Ability 2 := Planet Value Change - System
Minimum Speed := 1
Desired Speed := 5
Majority Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Majority Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 1 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 2 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 3 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 4 := 0
Secondary Weapon Family Pick 5 := 0
Shields Spaces Per One := 0
Armor Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Majority Comp Ability :=
Secondary Comp Spaces Per One := 0
Secondary Comp Ability :=
Num Misc Abilities := 2
Misc Ability 1 Name := Solar Supply Generation
Misc Ability 1 Spaces Per One := 100
Misc Ability 2 Name := Standard Ship Movement
Misc Ability 2 Spaces Per One := 1

------------------------------------------

Include that in the early stages of construction. Something like this:

AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := 10
Entry 1 Type := Attack Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 2 Type := Colonizer
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Attack Base
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Colonizer
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 4
...

Attack bases are not included in fleets and do a great job in exploring.

Rollo

[ January 03, 2003, 16:21: Message edited by: Rollo ]

pathfinder

January 3rd, 2003, 08:42 PM

Rambie/Timstone: Hehe, what I tried (and I guess failed) to say is..yeah me doing the AI_designcreation the DESIGN itself is mainly Val's (and several others). My concern, such as the standard movement lines is that those are a major part of the overall design and serve a purpose that I have no idea why that is included...

still trying to figger out a bogus ability thingy to get armor added http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

BTW still no RCes. Not going to call the fix done until I get to level 12 propulsion & dreadnoughts tho...

[ January 03, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 3rd, 2003, 10:31 PM

*Da path does a back-flip and promptly injures his fat old self http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif *

Got the AI to use armor...wheeeee. no bogus ability either, just setup armor ability for the armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

now to figure out how to limit the number of structural supports to a reasonable number (per hull?). darn things cost no hull space to be taken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ January 03, 2003, 20:32: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Skulky

January 4th, 2003, 12:05 AM

sorry to intrude, but could i request a posting of the mod? I can't seem to find it here (granted i didn't read all 2500 Posts though).

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 12:09 AM

Skulky: The basic MOD can be found at Rambie's web site:

http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm

The are several drawbacks to the basic (RCEs due to engine/hull match-ups [QNP]). I have a fix for the most common RCE but have not updated all the AI yet. So use the basic if you want but realize it has a major drawback. Also the current "official" Version is for 1.49 (non-gold). There are a coupla guys working on making a Gold Version but not sure where they are with it ATM.

grumbler

January 4th, 2003, 02:39 AM

Have completed 3 games to 200 turns with the Gold mods.

As the Minbari, I was pretty much on the way to victory in 200 turns. The Ai doesn't seem to get population to the outlying planets fast enough to get around the production limits (and this is especially important - even more so tha getting around the build limits). thus, no one's planets under the AI seemed to be producing more than 50% of the available research points.

In the EA scenario, the EA didn't seem to be getting the rapid-fire missiles. I'm still looking into that. Perhaps its just as well - missiles that reload in a turn seem pretty powerful! OTOH, the Minbari and Shadows were ripping up EA ships with their long-range weaponry.

With the shadows, I shadow-danced to total victory in just under 200 turns. The living AI, molecular weapons, and bio-engines made them simply unbeatable even two or three ship sizes down. They make much better oponents than human players.

A consistent problem was the lack of speed for the AI-designed ships. I tried to mod the engines in the components files to produce "small" "medium" and "large" engines of each type to get the AI to invest more in speed, but while that worked for combat ships the AI continued to produce colony ships and transports with speeds of 2 to 4. Meantime, the ideal speeds were in the range of 12 to 20.

AI satellites also didn't seem to use "large" and "huge' weapons much. Maybe I just didn't play long enough - those big satellites cost a bunch of research to produce, but BOY is it worth it!

Lots of fun in the early game, though. The Shadows START with the ability to build speed 20 armed scouts. WHOOHOO!

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 03:13 AM

Grumbler: Yeah, ya gotta go for the long term for the "young" race AI to get neat stuff and late model engines to get their speeds up. They still don't get quite what the "ancients" get....

Then again the "ancients" can't colonize...except thru invasion or gifts....*shrug*

[ January 04, 2003, 17:44: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 06:36 AM

Hopefully I'll be able to finish the new AI by tommorow, latest Sunday evening.

Rambie

January 4th, 2003, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by grumbler:
Have completed 3 games to 200 turns with the Gold mods.
Grumbler,

If you want, send me the Gold MOD and I'll post it on my site for downloading. I get many requests for the Gold MOD.

If you'd like help with the Gold MOD let me know, I'd like to help if I can.

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 07:45 PM

Weeeeeee.....
finally got at the AI_designcreation up to speed so to speak. now for testing....

Fyron

January 4th, 2003, 08:00 PM

You guys, the 30 MB on uploads to Shrapnel is 30 MB per _file_, not per user. So, there is no reason why the mod can't be uploaded here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Suicide Junkie

January 4th, 2003, 08:03 PM

Meantime, the ideal speeds were in the range of 12 to 20.The ideal speed is "number of standard movement points", which then gets divided by the engines per move to get the final velocity.

If your colony ship has 3 EPM, you need a desired speed of 60 in order to get a final speed of 20.

Timstone

January 4th, 2003, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Timstone:
haha, sorry Geo, this is the complete B5Mod .33:

B5Mod .33 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1039894656.zip)

It took some time, but I made it. Thank technology for ADSL! If you don't want to DL this, ask Nomor, Pathfinder or Fyron for a complete list of thingies to DL. They know that, I don't.Lookie, I already Upped it to the serverm no need to search further. Well okay, a visit to Rambie's site is always good.

Nomor

January 4th, 2003, 09:20 PM

grumbler: I found that the only way to survive the Shadows was to have the Harm Missile. This has a starting range of 13 and has the effect of disrupting/stopping the Shadows weapons from firing. You can then try to box them into a corner for boarding. I found that AI combat usually resulted in a loss for EA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

You get this missile by researching Earth Alliance Medium Weapon? Coupled with the Long Range Missile makes for very effective basic War Ship. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif PS Anyone heard from Val http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ January 04, 2003, 19:21: Message edited by: Nomor ]

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 09:26 PM

SJ: Problem has been with the standard movement point statement and advanced engines plus large hulls RCEs were the result, especially the specialty ships such as the assault ship, super carrier...No matter what I tried RCEs resulted OR speeds were up around 45-50 for battleships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Right now I have a problem with the external cargo pods. Val gave them an armor ability and until armor is researched they fill up the attack ships (taking up valuble weapon space).

also how does one get the AI to take a component that has no space/mass value (ship supports)? If I give them an armor ability they fill the ship (no end found)..

[ January 04, 2003, 19:29: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Suicide Junkie

January 4th, 2003, 09:49 PM

RCE's are generally caused by high speeds.

Have you tried removing the misc ability call for "Standard movement" and using only the desired movement line?

Desired movement := (real desired speed) X (Engines Per Move of this hull)

also how does one get the AI to take a component that has no space/mass value (ship supports)? If I give them an armor ability they fill the ship (no end found)..They need to be assigned a "useless ability" (definitely NOT the armor ability; that will totally screw it up)

If you add Facility abilities, "star - unstable", etc...
Then you can call for some of them in the misc abilities.
Spaces per one of 10, should then add 100 of them on a 1000kt ship, I believe.

[ January 04, 2003, 19:55: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

Jamorobo

January 4th, 2003, 10:29 PM

I downloaded your Last file and now QNP is not working it's gone back to normal space empires where 8 engines will move any ship 4!! this means that colony ships are going 6 as the start insted of 2!

Have u done this on purpose to sort out all the RCE's or has something gone pearshaped?

I've also noticed in my games that the ai does very little population movement, which is somthing that is very important in this game due to the large effect the population has on construction on a planet

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 10:47 PM

SJ: Yes, that is what I just finished doing and now testing. Only at turn 40 so I have a ways to pla... er test http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I imagine there may be some tweaking of both the desired movement and epm values but I'll defer that until I get 300-400 turns into this mess I have the EA in atm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Jamarobo: Talking to me? I have not uploaded my latest changes. One's posted a day or 2 ago were mainly for those interested (E.G. Rollo) to look at them (Abbai & Minbari, shipsize & components) to give me some advice on how to get rid of the RCEs. Hehe, those were some crude mods I was doing to get rid of the engine/hull RCEs we were seeing..

[ January 04, 2003, 20:53: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 4th, 2003, 11:19 PM

SJ: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif that baloney ability worked for the structural supports.

*groan* back to the MOD design salt mines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

pathfinder

January 5th, 2003, 05:36 AM

Run away, run away....

The Shadows are coming! aaiiieeeee.....

only at about turn 150 or so and those *&^%$# already have battleships with heavy molecular slicers ( range of 13-14?) and armor (top shelf inert).....

poor EA only have Lt Cruisers, slow engines (speed 5 in LT Czr) and that combo laser/pulse cannon (range 3) and low end inert...

and I need a brewski http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 05, 2003, 03:37: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Suicide Junkie

January 5th, 2003, 06:03 AM

The only reason I didn't put the ability into the armor, was because I didn't know which ones would be available.

There are a limited number of abilities that have no effect on component, and I didn't know which ones were going to be used where http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

pathfinder

January 5th, 2003, 06:10 AM

SJ: The first passive (reflective?) uses emmissive ability so no problem there...

using armor ability (in inert armor) only a "problem" at start because that external cargo pod also uses it as an ability ... *shrug* The EA lived thru the first few battles (with Llort [neutral]) without too many losses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

pathfinder

January 6th, 2003, 01:03 AM

Here's one for ya: Shadows (me) put a 1-pdf multicutter (good against ships/fighters/sats) AND a Heavy Multi-phase Cutter on a Large Colony ship....

Nasty surprise for enemies at warp point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Should I arm large colony ships via the AI_designcreation? If so, which races (all, some, which?). How heavy/big a weapon (pdf are already designed in)?

BTW yes, the Volons & Shadows CAN get colonization tech. They have to research it (Volon/Shadow race Lvl 2 and/or B5 Ancient Race 2 THEN research rock colonization AND have parameters set up in AI_designcreation) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 05, 2003, 23:05: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 6th, 2003, 02:08 AM

hmmmm.....

trying to figure out what weapons to put into the ships to counter the Shadows. Harm missiles for the EA (secondary weapon batteries)....have to look at races to see if they have/can use ballistics

Suicide Junkie

January 6th, 2003, 02:24 AM

SJ: The first passive (reflective?) uses emmissive ability so no problem there...Hmmm. Are the AIs putting multiple "primary" armor components on then?

The "primaries" have about 5x the ability amount, compared to the "additional" armors, so that larger ships don't have WAY more crystalline ability than the small ships.

pathfinder

January 6th, 2003, 02:41 AM

SJ; Most I have seen the AI (Vorlons) put on is 2 "primary" passive armor the rest are inert armors of various sizes (uses largest then fills in with light). They have not researched further to get the "additional" passive armors.

Update: The only ships using the double passive primary armor are the Vorlon frigate and Vorlon troop transport. at least so far in the game. The Vorlon capital ships only use one passive armor rest of armor is inert armor.

[ January 05, 2003, 15:21: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 7th, 2003, 03:24 AM

What does the following error message mean?:

AI designcreation---

"Could not find field "Name" in record "Jump Gate"

I checked that entry in AI_Designcreation for the Hyach (#5 in my current test) and don't see what is wrong with it...

Update: Never mind *grumble* Had a typo in the "record" before that (satellite) ....

[ January 07, 2003, 02:01: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Suicide Junkie

January 7th, 2003, 04:29 AM

Multiple Primaries are technically cheating, but in this case, I don't think it really matters all that much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

pathfinder

January 7th, 2003, 05:52 AM

SJ: Yeah, wonder what I can do to stop it. Tho' it may not be worth the effort. hard enough to get it so the AI would use it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 07, 2003, 03:54: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Fyron

January 7th, 2003, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by pathfinder:
BTW yes, the Volons & Shadows CAN get colonization tech. They have to research it (Volon/Shadow race Lvl 2 and/or B5 Ancient Race 2 THEN research rock colonization AND have parameters set up in AI_designcreation) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif That is only meant for games of all Ancients. For games with Younger Races, the Ancient races should not research Colony Techs.

pathfinder

January 7th, 2003, 06:26 AM

Ok, tommorow, barring incident or accident I should be able to organize, zip and post the AI for those who want to test it.

I have run it through and at least the there haven't been any RCEs on my Last two (200+ turn) games.

Be sure and read the readme! I'll put in what I have changed (data [vehiclesize], designcreation and research) for all the AI.

[ January 07, 2003, 04:27: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 7th, 2003, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pathfinder:
BTW yes, the Volons & Shadows CAN get colonization tech. They have to research it (Volon/Shadow race Lvl 2 and/or B5 Ancient Race 2 THEN research rock colonization AND have parameters set up in AI_designcreation) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif That is only meant for games of all Ancients. For games with Younger Races, the Ancient races should not research Colony Techs.<hr /></blockquote>Now how am I to set that for the AI in their AI_research file? No way I can differentiate that for single-player. All or nothing...

[ January 07, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 8th, 2003, 01:40 AM

Another question (probably gonna shoot myself for asking): What 2 races techs should be researched for the League of Non-Aligned Worlds (LNAW)?

Mine would be Abbai and Pakmara or Abbai and Gaim.

Why just 2? Because Da path don't feel like trying to fit more than that in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Unless of course some other suc...uhm highly intelligent and motivated MODer wants to step forward and do them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif hehe...

AGoetz

January 8th, 2003, 02:58 AM

I'm back .... will try to play the games' first turn tonight when I get home.

On the subject of race abilities to give the LNAW, if you give them Gaim then you also give them the best Boarding Parties in the game and first hit armor - just something to bear in mind

pathfinder

January 8th, 2003, 03:32 AM

1041989240.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1041989240.ZIP)

Latest B5 AI from the salt mines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . Hopefully the changes to the AI_designcreation will prevent any further Range Check Errors. Also added in structural supports and armor.

Addendum to readme: I forgot to add that that I deleted the "standard movement" entries from each ships description in AI_designcreation.

Lighthorse

January 8th, 2003, 05:31 AM

Hey Pathfinder,

How its going lately in the old salt mines.
Any idea when PBW B5mod game would start?
Also, anytime you want to tried a CMBB game on the side, time permitting please email me.

Happy New Year to all B5modders
Lighthorse

Fyron

January 8th, 2003, 05:45 AM

Any idea when PBW B5mod game would start?It had already started, but there were a few problems with bad empires, so we were going to restart. Then, PBW went down. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

AGoetz

January 8th, 2003, 06:27 AM

I'll start testing your new AI files after I get the first turn game to work. Did you find a way to fix the Hyach Laser problem that I reported before going away?

pathfinder

January 8th, 2003, 06:27 AM

Lighthorse: Salt mines are kinda smelly right now... only thing that has come up in current test is RCE when minbari tried assulting a planet with cluster bombs.....the cluster bombs caused the RCE http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Plus the game is kinda screwy...I saw a group of 4 Hyach destroyers, ran my fleet of 8 destroyers and frigates over and PPppFFffTTttt...there were actually 8 in the Hyach group. No cloaking, so I don't know what the blazes is with that...Update: YES, the freakin' geriatrics...uhm, Hyach get cloaks.....bleah (racial tech)....

as for CMBB....why not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AGoetz: AH....not sure....most of the RCEs were caused by engine/hull problems. I'll let ya know. Currently have a game with the Hyach in it with the new AI. I fiddled with the Hyach_AI_designcreation and light cruisers with lvl 5 engines work ok with spinal lasers...

[ January 08, 2003, 04:59: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 8th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Anyone: Why would cluster bombs cause an RCE?

[ January 08, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

AGoetz

January 9th, 2003, 12:12 AM

No real idea on the Cluster Bomb problem - but how many Cluster Bombs and what size did the ship try to drop? Maybe there is a max damage value it's overflowing.

pathfinder

January 9th, 2003, 12:42 AM

Cluster Bomb I and only one unit on the ship, rest were 2 X Molecular Pulsar II. The RCE hit just after the .wav for the weapon finished...

AGoetz

January 9th, 2003, 01:24 AM

I assume from the description that this in tactical combat - does this also happen in strategic?

Have started a game with the newest files, currently turn ~150. I'm the EA, and am sitting quietly in a 4 system block. The Grome block one of the ways out and the Cascor are trying to come through the others. I think both are using the Default AI files.
My Assualt ships have saved me a lot of research - I only researched up to Destroyer hulls, but can currently build Dreadnoughts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (in addition to at least 3 levels of propulsion, 2 levels of fighters and a scattering of ecm, armor, plasma etc). I really should build some ships and punish the Cascor and Grome for their attempts to get at me, my 100 turn old frigates are starting to get thin in numbers (I love first shot advantage on a jump point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

pathfinder

January 9th, 2003, 01:40 AM

Hmmm...haven't tried it in strategic yet...I'll let ya know...

Update: Nope, no RCE in strategic nor in tactical/auto

[ January 09, 2003, 00:13: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 9th, 2003, 02:22 AM

Great work sofar with hammering out the RCE's! Keep up the good work!
Two thumbs up for Da Path!!

AGoetz

January 9th, 2003, 11:55 AM

I have no more ideas regarding the Cluster Bomb RCE.

There are some typos in your LNAW DesignCreation file, in particular with some of the ships the values for 'Num Misc Abilities' are incorrect. Havn't looked for the same error in other files yet.

Timstone

January 9th, 2003, 12:20 PM

Damnit! M'n computer crashed yesterday due to a virus! AARGG!!! I hope all my files are in good health. Work on my shipset (not that much unfortunately) and my work on TAInT King will stop for now.

pathfinder

January 9th, 2003, 01:14 PM

AGoetz: Yeah, I tried some QA before posting it but seems I missed some. Dilgar also had 2 typos. I'll fix and re-post. The errors are the Last entry in the ships where I was adding an ability so that the structural supports could be added.

Update: Yikes! I stopped counting at 8 errors for the LNAW.

Abbai & ShagToth also had errors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ January 10, 2003, 22:16: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 12:15 AM

Lighthorse: got the email. never played pbem before so may take a day or two to figure it out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Also I guess since AGoetz is only one who responded then the LNAW will be Abbai & Gaim for racial techs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

May take aawhiile as I'll have to fiddle with the AI_general file to fit those traits in.

[ January 10, 2003, 22:19: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

AGoetz

January 11th, 2003, 12:54 AM

Most recent RCE - Abbai. They researched Ship Enhancment 3 (unlikely to be the problem) and Cargo 2 (all those Extended Fighter/Satellite etc components) on the tun in question and disabling Design Minister prevented the problem.

Question : Is it feasible to shift the Extended X components to new component families so that they don't replace the normal parts?

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 01:05 AM

AGoetz: Don't know myself.

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by AGoetz:
Most recent RCE - Abbai. They researched Ship Enhancment 3 (unlikely to be the problem) and Cargo 2 (all those Extended Fighter/Satellite etc components) on the tun in question and disabling Design Minister prevented the problem.

Question : Is it feasible to shift the Extended X components to new component families so that they don't replace the normal parts?1:Just went thru a series of turns (about 20) with the Abbai. They have ship enhancements (lvl 5) and cargo maxed (lvl 3) and no RCE...

2: Don't know myself..

[ January 10, 2003, 23:57: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Lighthorse

January 11th, 2003, 02:07 AM

Pathfinder,

Check out CMBB manual on PBEM. Its pretty straight forward.
My present B5mod SE4 game, ran into the Shadows on turn 220, They have expanded out to 11 systems and 14 planets. They corvette had 3x slicers and normal crew, life support and bridge. Noted no problems with they ships or empire.
My on going war with the Vorlon over 200 turns now, using mines and energy mines to counter hunderds of they fighters launched from they carriers. Tried invasioning they only planet/homeworld, got my *** kicked by 500+ fighters. Momie make the bad Vorlons go away.

Lighthorse

AGoetz

January 11th, 2003, 02:29 AM

I've only faced hostile Vorlons once - in a small galaxy with 20 empires they started in the next system and proceeded to blow everything I launched out of space until I managed to research up to Medium BLaster Cannon IV and started mounting them on Satellites. By that time the other 18 empires had grabbed pretty much every other Rock world around so I was limited to just my Homeworld. Really should get around to continuing that game.

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 03:13 AM

Hehe, one thing I noticed in the current test: the Abbai, as currently configured, are a bunch of MEAN females. They are dominating the galaxy....very harsh mistresses.

Beware of Abbai bearing battle lasers!

[ January 11, 2003, 11:24: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 11th, 2003, 05:13 PM

AGoetz: I didn't change the fighters , ie they still have the standard movement lines....so I'll experiment and see if that helps...

no RCE here...what engines are they fitting in the fighters?

But the Gaim do. So either there is a problem with the heavy carrier/super carrier design still or there is a problem with the heavy fighter design. This is when coupled with lvl 12 engine(s).

Bleah, Appears the super carrier (is part of lvl 3 fighter research) isn't so super. took it out and the RCE went away.

Abbai had it too, super carrier was ok until lvl 10 ultra efficient fusion engine then an RCE.

Also looking at making the standard ships (attack ships and carriers) all one size and not a range (or narrowing the range). Abbai using large transport (894 KT) to make the battleship hull(DOH!)...

Well narrowing the range to +- 5 KT of the shipsize.txt file worked in getting the battleship fixed but still an RCE with super carrier...must be something with the epm vs speed desired that is off-base...

Tried lowering the epm a bit, didn't work ..

[ January 11, 2003, 23:18: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 01:24 AM

AGoetz ?! : What is your prefferred primary weapon...packet torpedo or particle concentrator?

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 02:07 AM

OK, I give up. Super carriers are coming out (until Val gets back) as a major bug. Bleah, guess my math stinks, I simply can't find a decent ratio.

1600 kt ship

epm (atm) is 32

desired speed (per AI_designcreation) is 96

engine thrust is 8 (ultraefficient fusion)

What I would like is in-game (apparent speed) of 8-10

what I get is RCEs.

have place epm from 10 to 100...bleah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

desired speed: 10-100, bleah http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Update: screw the math http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

backed it up to 1/1/1 and now easing up until I get a RCE then will use the final "successful" numbers...

[ January 12, 2003, 01:19: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

AGoetz

January 12th, 2003, 02:34 AM

Pathfinder, some bad news : the Shadows at least still RCE on fighter 3.

AGoetz

January 12th, 2003, 04:22 AM

My preferred Gaim weapon is Particle Concentrator - but I'll still bring some missile boats along just to force the foe to bring along some point defence http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Current game (where that Shadow RCE hit) my 4 shipyard worlds have a Relay Station loaded with 20 Packet Torpedo launchers for protection while the jump points have Cruisers equipped with Particle Concentrators and Boarding Parties.

"Knock, knock, this is Gaim Customs calling. Please provide a listing all technological components aboard your vessel that we don't already have so that we may process you out of the airlock quicker."

[ January 12, 2003, 02:37: Message edited by: AGoetz ]

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 05:03 AM

AGoetz: Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I'll switch things around a bit. any preference for me to set the AI up...as a standard what ship size is missle boat and which is guns? Guns will have missile as secondary and vice versa...

ALL: I think I FINALLY got the super carrier RCE fixed. ...can't have minimum engines set greater than 31 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (at least with desired speed at 96).

for now gonna set it to epm=24, min speed = 31

desired speed = 96.

this gives apparent in-game speed of 10.

Sorry if ya wanted gazelles but this is best my fried grey matter can come with for the moment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ January 12, 2003, 03:31: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 12th, 2003, 01:34 PM

Can be that I never played the mod as far as you guys did, but I've never encountered RCE's. Strange isn't it?

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Timstone: hehe, lucky you! Frustrating to having a good game going then meeting that RCE roadblock. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That's why I picked that ball, so pla...er, testing could go on and find other bugs (hopefully there aren't any).

Kirok

January 12th, 2003, 04:42 PM

This is probobally a prime newbie question to ask, but anywho

I've downloaded the Core files for the Gold Version and all updates from Rambies page once I've installed the mod and try to run it I get "data file errors" mostly saying that it cannot find a certain field in record.

just wondering anyone could give me some advice on how to get the mod to run

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by Kirok:
This is probobally a prime newbie question to ask, but anywho

I've downloaded the Core files for the Gold Version and all updates from Rambies page once I've installed the mod and try to run it I get "data file errors" mostly saying that it cannot find a certain field in record.

just wondering anyone could give me some advice on how to get the mod to runThe Core files (mainly shipsets) are compatible with Gold; however, the datafiles are compatible only with pre-Gold SEIV.

Grumbler is trying to convert to Gold but he hasn't posted (finished?) yet:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=004079;p=5

[ January 12, 2003, 15:12: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 12th, 2003, 05:12 PM

In short, you'll have to wait untill Grumbler is done with the gold-conVersion.

pathfinder

January 12th, 2003, 05:56 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Now baseships are giving an RCE and none of my set-ups are working...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Fix is set max number engines = 100.

[ January 12, 2003, 16:55: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

AGoetz

January 13th, 2003, 12:13 AM

My normal Beam/Missile loadouts :

Support Ships (Repair etc) : Missile.
Largest in field designs : Beam.
Smaller designs : Beam or Missile depending on percieved need (the AI won't be able to work that out, sorry).
Smallest designs : Boarding Parties and Beams.

Currently tending to a ~10-15% of ship mass spent on Armor components, still playing around with this.

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 02:02 AM

AGoetz: Hehe, thanks. I'll tweak the Gaim layout with next AI, which should be in next couple of days. One dissappoinment is their bulkheads disappear in my game after inert armor researched. Would you prefer the bulkheads or the inert armor?

Looks like both baseships and heavy baseships are in (the numbers look kinda screwy but at least no RCEs with them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Timstone

January 13th, 2003, 02:22 AM

Well, you seem to be very good at detecting and solving those nasty RCE's. The only thing I can say is keep up the good work.

Btw: I've got my computer back Online and all my important files are intact. Yehaa! Work on my shipset can continue. I've got another model ready as we speak.

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 02:25 AM

Timstone: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Glad to hear your PC is acting properly. Looking forward to the Ipsha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AGoetz

January 13th, 2003, 02:44 AM

From memory the Inert Armors are most effective / kT then the Bulkheads now that all the Armors are 'Hit First'. So the Gaim just get Armor earlier than anyone else, nothing more.

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 03:08 AM

AGoetz: Ok, then I'll just leave that alone then.

ALL: If the AI shipset does not have a baseship in it the game picks some really strange pics. Hehe the Abbai had a Mibari escort mini with an Abbai battlecruiser portrait for the baseship until I made a hasty one for it...

Fyron

January 13th, 2003, 03:13 AM

Wait... the armor shouldn't be hit first at all! It is supposed to be leaky armor.

AGoetz

January 13th, 2003, 04:00 AM

I'm assuming that Pathfinder couldn't get the AI to use the leaky armors properly and so changed them. I don't know enough about the AI files to be able to suggest fixes.

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 04:04 AM

Leaky armor?

Pray tell what the heck is leaky armor. All I did was assign the armor ability to the armor components... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ January 13, 2003, 02:07: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Fyron

January 13th, 2003, 04:09 AM

Leaky armor, as in it doesn't stop all shots. Some damage gets through and hits the internal components. Use an ability like Star-Unstable or something on the armor, and call for it in the AI design files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Just make sure to give that dud ability no description.

Suicide Junkie

January 13th, 2003, 04:35 AM

AAAAAAhhhhhhh!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

What did you do to my beautiful leaky armor system! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I suggested adding a useless ability to whichever ones you wanted the AI to use, like "Resource generation - organics".
Definitely NOT the armor ability, which is far from useless and basically makes the ships invulnerable!

AGoetz

January 13th, 2003, 04:53 AM

Well, if you go back to the Leaky Armor, then the Gaim Bulkheads which were always 'Hit First' come back into use. The standard armors are much more efficient in terms of damage absorbed/size so 'Hit First' becomes the Bulkheads only true reason for existance.

I think I can see a new Component.txt file coming out soon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...

[ January 13, 2003, 02:54: Message edited by: AGoetz ]

grumbler

January 13th, 2003, 05:01 AM

Actually, I HAD the gold conVersion, and then the new datasets messed something up (the picture files no longer read correctly - I done Somethin' Wrong:)).

You can do a "rough and dirty" translation yourself quite easily (if tediously) simply by:
1) In the VehicleSize.txt file, do a "replace" function and add the word "Primary" before "Bitmap Name" and delete all the extra spaces you end up with (do the first, and then copy it into the 'replace with' box). Then, copy all the "Primary Bitmap Name" lines to a new line you add below. Replace "Primary Bitmap Name" with "Alternate Bitmap Name" on this second line. It should now look like this:

[Old]
Bitmap Name := Destroyer

[New]
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer

(except that it will not always be destroyer, of course).

In the "components" file, replace all occurances of "Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat" with "Ship\Base\Sat\WeapPlat\Drone" (although the new components file seems to have this already, double-check to be sure).

Add the following lines to the AI_Settings file for each race (copy them from an existing Gold AI file, not from here!):
Ships don't move through minefields := false
Ships don't move through restricted systems := false
Clear orders on encounter enemy := false
Clear orders on encounter all := false
Percentage of total satellites to keep as planetary cargo := 40
Percentage of total drones to keep as planetary cargo := 40
Number Of Anti-Ship Drones Per Target := 3
Number Of Anti-Planet Drones Per Target := 3
Maximum Anti-Ship Drone Target System Distance := 5
Maximum Anti-Planet Drone Target System Distance := 5

I think that's really it (I don't have my notes right to hand). If it doesn't work, the error Messages tell you exactly what the problem is, and you can usually find the solution by comparing the file in question to an "authentic Gold" file of the same type.

Note that the mod never uses drones, but the components file has to account for them.

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 05:12 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Oops! DOH! I used star-unstable for the structural stuff...I'll use the resource generation or whatever for the regular armor....sorry

grumbler

January 13th, 2003, 05:22 AM

I always wondered why "ship's bridge" appeared as an ability in facilities, and the like. It's the "useless ability" gig!

Glad I didn't waste time going back and deleting all of those!

Does the new components file allow you to use more than one kind of armor (like Refractive plus Scattering)? The old one didn't, and all the armor tyes were just the same, except maybe a bit in cost. Was that intended?

Also, I see you could the fact that the cargo and living CPU families having formerly been the same. I meant to mention that (I think it was causing the multiple-cpu problems with the shadows).

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 05:38 AM

Grumbler: not sure on allowing more than one type passive armor...though you can use inert + scattering (Minbari do in current test game)...the AI "cheats" and puts 2+ "primary" passive armor....you and i can't do it but that AI does http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Yeah, seen the multiple livuing cpu's. never figgered those out. did you fix that? How?

[ January 13, 2003, 04:02: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 13th, 2003, 06:04 AM

Bleah....yet another miscellaneous ability line... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ January 13, 2003, 11:41: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

grumbler

January 13th, 2003, 07:45 PM

PF: On the armor thing, why have all these types of reactive armor if they are not being used? One of the things that makes finding problems in the game so hard is that the components file is so big. Yet a lot of components seem unnecessary or redundent (like different types of near-identical armor, or the base supply depots) so maybe we should be looking at cutting the components that aren't needed.

On another topic, is there any reason why reactors are allowed on bases? The AI seems to put them on the defensive bases, when bases already have unlimited supply.

On the shadow/cpu issue: I thought that I had figured out at least part of the problem (the fact that both living CPU and external cargo pods had family # 11008. Checked it out more thoroughly, and that didn't solve the problem.

I tried changing the size/cost/capabilities of the cargo hold to allow for a 10 kt cargo hold, in the event the AI was just using CPUs to fill empty space. No joy.

I tried making Master Computer a required ability. No joy. I played around with the "Misc Ability (x) Spaces Per One" values in the Ai files. No joy.

I deleted the redundent abilities from the living CPU (abilities 2-4). No joy.

I even made living CPUs base-mountable only. They still appeared on ships (along with bridge, crew, and LS). Something is making the AI add specifically the living CPU beyond the minimum needed.

pathfinder

January 14th, 2003, 01:56 PM

Grumbler: Reactive armors---ask Val.

Reactors: ask Val, it's a bug.

LCPU: did extensive testing Last night, I give up. nothing worked.

All: Once I get the next AI out, that is my Last. Real life intrudes and I do NOT have the time it takes to do this.

[ January 14, 2003, 11:59: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 03:01 PM

Nomor: Do you have a good idea for a flag for the Ipsha?

grumbler

January 14th, 2003, 05:25 PM

PF: I second the motion that your great work on the AI files has been the most important contribution anyone has made since the orig components file. Having just worked with the IA files a bit, I cannot imagine how you can tolerate doing so many. Must be in your blood or sumpin! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Sorry for asking the questions to which the obvious answer is "ask Val" but I think we may need to consider the possibility that Val is gone long-term (Thanksgiving was a while ago). If that proves to be the case, I think you are the natural new leader for the project.

pathfinder

January 14th, 2003, 08:10 PM

Folks: Don't know if ya'll picked up on missive I made: The data/vehichlesize.txt file calls for a baseship image for the baseships. Most of the 5 "main" races already had them done BUT the races I did sets for don't. I will try, after the AI is done to make those images. Just note that I would consider them placeholder only until a suitable image is made.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif One reason I am pulling back is: took me almost all day Saturday to do all the AI armor and test it (make sure no typos or screw-ups) sooooooo, since I now have to take the AI back to scratch I don't have time to do more than that. Now that the RCes (at least mostly) are gone I do NOT feel a real rush to tweak anything more than my typos or such.

On the armors, I vaguely remember discussion about them this Last summer. The passive armors are mainly for the Mid-life and ancient races. The inerts are for the "younger" races. I remember asking about which went with what race and the races are basically set up that way. As for the need...*shrug* beats me...

The LCPU used to work but 2-3 Versions ago they stopped, I have no idea why.

[ January 14, 2003, 18:18: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Timstone

January 14th, 2003, 08:16 PM

All we can say is: okay. Real live is more important than the mod.
Could you try and send Val another mail? It would be really nice if you got through this time. Scary thought, but he could be killed on The Strip stealing a lot of chips from Cesar, hehe...

pathfinder

January 14th, 2003, 08:20 PM

Timstone: tried, they still bounce http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

grumbler

January 14th, 2003, 11:06 PM

PF: Gold has a workaround for exactly the situation you describe with the baseships: an alternate bitmap name. In every case, the alternate for baseships is starbases. You can duplicate this feature in 1.49 for those races that don't have baseship bitmaps by simply making a copy of the starbase bitmaps and renaming them (race)_mini-baseship and (race)_portrait_baseship. They can always be replaced later.

Rollo

January 14th, 2003, 11:47 PM

The easiest workaround would probably be a copy of the starbase in the generic shipset with name baseship. Sure, they'd all look the same...
But I said easy, not pretty.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Rollo

pathfinder

January 15th, 2003, 12:28 AM

Rollo/Grumbler: True.....that what I plan to do for the short run http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif just not sure when I can upload a folder with the images here..

I was trying to let any other who may be pla...er testing to expect some weirdness (escort mini with battlecruiser portrait) unless they or I get a new pic done..

[ January 14, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Suicide Junkie

January 15th, 2003, 01:13 AM

The reason why there are so many armor components, (and probably other components as well) is because they are grid techs. The inert armors have three dimensions; bigger, stronger, cheaper.

Fyron

January 15th, 2003, 02:49 AM

Also, the Primary armors have a higher level of emmissive and crystalline abilities, and the Secondary armors have lower levels. This is so that 1 piece is still effective, but a lot of pieces aren't nearly invincible. I can assure you that all of those components have a purpose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Timstone

January 15th, 2003, 02:52 AM

Where's Val when you need him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
PF:Great work on the files so far. You really did a lot for the mod.
Grumbler: Great work on the conVersion so far. (Hey, that's the same sentence I used before, must be getting tired after sitting behind the computer for over 10 hours)

Nomor

January 15th, 2003, 03:47 AM

Nomor: Do you have a good idea for a flag for the Ipsha? Timstone: Try looking up National Flags on Google and see if you can find something you like.
As I have said earlier the Ipsha remind me of Kermit the frog, so... using a flag from some equatorial county, nice for amphibians, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif might be appropriate. I like the look of the Congo flag or maybe even the "new" South African. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
http://www.photius.com/flags/alphabetic_list.html
this is a good link... I like Jamaica http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ January 15, 2003, 02:51: Message edited by: Nomor ]

pathfinder

January 15th, 2003, 04:03 AM

Timstone:

how about this (Isle of Man):

http://www.flags.net/ISMA.htm

grumbler

January 16th, 2003, 04:50 PM

IF: I guess my point is that there are lots and lots of "passive" armor type entries in the components file (making it bigger) but the differences between them are small. It seems disproportionate to research passive armor physics to level 1 and scattering armor engineering to level 1 (total cost 120,000 RPs) and get Scattering Armor 1, and then proceed all the way through the chain to its end at Emissive Armor VI (almost 1.6 million RPs later) and see that the differences are:
1. 5 tons lighter
2. Takes 25 tons less damage
3. Costs 50 min more
4. Reduces damage from weapons by 25 ADU vice 15.
5. Can withstand 25 ADU hits without damage vice 15.
6. Regenerates 25 shields per turn vice 15.

I guess my point is that if the game is going to have such small differences between armor types then they should either be made racial or else the research deltas should be much less. Even better would be to not have such subtle distinctions and simplify the components file.

Fyron

January 17th, 2003, 08:57 AM

I'm sure there is a very good explanation for all of that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif SJ is the one that made the armors, so he'd be the one to ask.

Timstone

January 18th, 2003, 07:24 PM

Nomor, PF: Thanks for the links. The Manx of Isle of Man is certainly interesting. Maybe I can make something of it.

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 02:22 AM

Currently trying to finish up what I can do with the AI. Couple of questions:

Should I enable large colony ships to have weapons other than pd?

Fyron

January 19th, 2003, 02:25 AM

For AIs, one small weapon or 2 can be useful. Gives you a nasty surprise when you attack them.

The B5 Mod PBW Game has restarted!

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 03:41 AM

IF: yeah, tried that my Last test game. That why I asked..... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

grumbler

January 19th, 2003, 04:23 AM

PF: Why is the AI (especially the Narn) building so many weaponles scouts and Escort Carriers with no reactors? On the latter, the CVE design specs call for "solar resource generation - minerals" which is the light reactor. Curious, huh? Is the AI using the default AI somehow, you think?

I also noted that the Shadow's Heavy Molecular Slicer Beam I is twice the weight of the regular MS VII (which you have to have to get to Adv Shadow Molecular Weapons and the Hvy MS), but only does about 20% more damage. At all comparable design levels, the percentage weight increase is barely ever matched by the increase in damage, and the ranges are the same. Wazzup wif dat? Who's doing the weapons data? Maybe I can help with some analysis.

Suicide Junkie

January 19th, 2003, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by grumbler:
IF: I guess my point is that there are lots and lots of "passive" armor type entries in the components file (making it bigger) but the differences between them are small. It seems disproportionate to research passive armor physics to level 1 and scattering armor engineering to level 1 (total cost 120,000 RPs) and get Scattering Armor 1, and then proceed all the way through the chain to its end at Emissive Armor VI (almost 1.6 million RPs later) and see that the differences are:
1. 5 tons lighter
2. Takes 25 tons less damage
3. Costs 50 min more
4. Reduces damage from weapons by 25 ADU vice 15.
5. Can withstand 25 ADU hits without damage vice 15.
6. Regenerates 25 shields per turn vice 15.

I guess my point is that if the game is going to have such small differences between armor types then they should either be made racial or else the research deltas should be much less. Even better would be to not have such subtle distinctions and simplify the components file.Note: The tonnage difference you see there is only the "prototype" vs 1st "real production" component, and you will see that for each class. The Prototypes are 50% larger than the regular ones.

Also, you don't need to research any engineering or manufacturing techs to move on to the next theoretical physics level in passive armor.

The way the techs are set up is that you will research Passive Armor Physics as deep as you like. The farther you go here, the better your results will be later.
Practical tech developments for one class of passive armor will not carry over to the next class (Scattering armor manufacturing does not help with Conductive armor manufacturing)

Once you are ready with PAPhysics, you can start actually building production armor by researching the level-specific Engineering tech.

You can also optionally reduce your costs with the level-specific Manufacturing tech area.

Summary!
Passive Armor Physics
This is the critical first step, and determines how much emissive ability you will get per KT.
Reaching the top gives 2/3 more resistance than the first level.
Also, once you start reseaching the practical armor use, you will start to lock yourself in. The appropriate level to stop at is the one that lets you finish constructing ship with the best armor before the enemy attacks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Engineering
First level moves you from theoretical prototype to a real, useful primary armor. Second level allows you to add a single "add-on" armor segment. Third level removes the one-per-vehicle restriction on the "add-on" segments.
(You need only level 1 for small ships, 2 and 3 are good for large and very large ships or bases.)

Manufacturing
Advantages here are pretty obvious, and simple. Lower price means you can afford more ships.

Mental Picture
To view the Passive Armors, think of them as offices and cubicles in an office building. The salary of the occupant is the value of the armor.
PAPhysics tech is the elevator in the office. The longer you spend in there, the higher up you'll go, and the better salaries you will see.
Once you decide to get out, you can travel in two dimensions (North or East, say, for Manufacturing and Engineering) These techs will take you to the windows, and then the corner office.
At that point, you would have to return to the elevator and explore the next floor to see a better salary.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AI notes, and general points
PS:
If you are worried about the high research costs, don't! This is the Very Tip Top Tech in damage absorption technologies, so it shouldn't be fully researched until well into the endgame.

PPS:
If you are worried about the hitpoints per KT of the armor, just put a primary on, and then add lots of Inert armor over top of it.
For enemies with plenty of low damage weapons, it may be more effective to add the secondary armors, but considering that you are scripting an AI, its not worth thinking about.

PPPS:
I suppose the manufacturing techs could be given a greater effect, since they only provide a maximum of -20% to price, but on the whole it looks pretty good to me! Something to spend your research points on in the very late game.

Spiel/Rant
I did not intend for these techs to be sprinted down. That happens too much in the regular game for my liking.
Do a bit of armor research, then quit when the return on investment gets too low. Research Basic ECM for a while instead. Once those returns start to slow down, then come back to armor and do a few more levels. Soon, the Advanced ECM will appear to have more effect for the dollar than further armor research.

Flying through projectile weapons tech so fast that you may not even bother making a design that uses the DUC III seems silly to me. You can't change the player, since they're just doing what's best for the empire. Instead you change the game balance to encourage slowing or stopping in the middle!
See what I mean?

Edit: Hey, long enough to be worth a sig http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
And, added some Category headings.

[ January 19, 2003, 02:54: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 05:12 AM

Grumbler: Val (IIRC) set up the weapons data. All I am doing is the AI_designcreation and AI_research. In other words, i am NOT going into the "weeds" with the techs, just giving the AI the ability (well, somewhat anyways) to research then apply that tech some.

I got enough challenge just doing that.

On the scouts and carriers, again, so far I have not dealt (as yet) with more than getting the racial weapons researched and put on the ships. I am finishing the armor atm.

2 things I would LIKE to fix are the LCPU for Shadows and reactors on bases.

I'll look into the carriers if/when I get time. I am not worried about weaponless scouts UNLESS they are slow and are not putting on ECM and such http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Update: The reactor "ability" you noted is so that the AI is limited in reactor size for ships.

Reactor with "radioactive" ability = Heavy
Reactor with "Organic" ability= Medium
Reactor with "Mineral" ability= Small

So scouts which have misc ability of solar generation - minerals will be limited to small reactors. otherwise the AI would fit the latest, greatest (and usually biggest) one available.

as for no weapons...probably the tonnage allowed for support stuff like sensors, ecm, etc and even though there is a requirement for weapon that weapon is not fitted *shrug* not sure how to fix that.

BTW I HAVE figgered out why the AI is stuffing reactors into bases. there is a call for soalr generation which reactors also have. the call should be for "combat movement" which puts station keeping engines in. that way the bases move a bit to engage enemy ships. that way they are not stuck on a side of planet (masked) and out of range of enemy.

[ January 19, 2003, 03:40: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 07:52 AM

What would cause a "failure to load AI_designcreation.txt" error?

I checked spelling and spaces... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

current test game won't load Dilgar_AI_designcreation

grumbler

January 19th, 2003, 09:18 PM

PF: On the weapons, gotcha. I was just offering some analysis help to whomever was writing them - I like analysis! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On the reactorless CVs, I note that the EA CV and HCV have the line "Must Have Ability 2 := Solar Supply Generation" with no generation type specified. The Narn problem I have resolved - it was a mistake I had introduced myself while testing something and never backed out.

I also noted that the EA uses heavier reactors on their smaller CVs than the Narns. I assume that this is because they carry Cobra Bays instead of fighter bays? In any case, it works well, and I am impressed at the amount of work you have put into the AI!

I am looking now at the shadow LCPU problem, and will let you know if I find anything that might help you out.

pathfinder

January 19th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Grumbler: Understood. I just don't have a clue how to balance them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hmmm...hadn't noticed differenses between the races....though there SHOULD be some. Mostly I have been trying to the racial techs on-board, so to speak, and to get rid of the RCE's so a full game could be had ...

Hmmm.....Scout have 2 calls for reactors, that may be why no weapons... 1 call in abilities and another in misc abilities... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I wondered why there was an extra line in scouts....

[ January 20, 2003, 02:42: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Don't know what the &^%$ happened with the Dilgar AI_designcreation but made another from the default AI_designcreation and now all I gotta do is re-do the weapons and off they go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

When that is done, the basic (repeat BASIC) AI is done....tweaking (armor levels, ecm/advance ecm/support ecm, sensors/advanced sensors/supprt sensors, etc), construction (both facility & vehicle), balance (I sure Val returns for this!!!!) remain to be done. All AI have some level of armor, sensors, ecm...most do NOT have the construction files. I guess I could make some dummy ones out of TDM races (1.49 Version)

[ January 19, 2003, 23:13: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

grumbler

January 20th, 2003, 03:31 AM

As far as I can tell (a bunch of my early notes are now MIA), this files should contain all the data needed to make the basic mod work in gold:
1043026003.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043026003.zip).

Just replace all the files with the identically-named files in the zip and let 'er rip.

If someone can run it in Gold and confirm that it works, that would be great. I have lost "configuration control" and cannot confirm it for myself! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

grumbler

January 20th, 2003, 03:38 AM

ALL: Btw, the only mod I made was in the components file. Family 11008 was shared by Living CPU and External Cargo Pod, so I changed living CPU to family 11011.

And no, PF, this didn't solve the problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I just spent 4 hours making tweaks to the design file and components file to see if I could figure out the multiple LCPU. No joy.

Interestingly, if I changed the LCPU compnent to a component identical to the Master Computer in the original game (but with the same tech as the LCPU), the AI started using bridges and the rest!

One thing that did NOT work (and I was sure it would) was making the LCPU a required component and not a miscellaneous ability. Sigh...

Will keep at it, as soon as I can figure another approach.

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 04:40 AM

Grumbler: hehe, I changed LCPU to 1105 and it didn't solve it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

and when I changed it to mC..same as you the AI used BOTH LCPU and bridge/living quarters/life support

[ January 20, 2003, 02:44: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 05:35 AM

Would ya'll mind if I added 2 weapons to the Dilgar. They seem to be missing the scatter pulsar and quad pulsar from their arsenal (Llort also have them so not hard to add).

grumbler

January 20th, 2003, 05:56 AM

PF: Where is the Dilgar ship set? I've got your Ai and a few bits and pieces, but nothing nera enough to play them with.

All: I left out the settings.txt file from the download. Its the same as the pre-gold Version, but with the following lines added (they can just be cut-n-pasted from the end of the original Gold settings.txt file):
Drone Supply Usage Per Turn := 200
Drones Can Be Hit By Mines := True
Population Mass := 5
Reproduction Check Frequency := 1
Minimum Computer Player Low Setting := 1
Maximum Computer Player Low Setting := 3
Minimum Computer Player Medium Setting := 3
Maximum Computer Player Medium Setting := 7
Minimum Computer Player High Setting := 6
Maximum Computer Player High Setting := 10
Minimum Neutral Player Low Setting := 1
Maximum Neutral Player Low Setting := 3
Minimum Neutral Player Medium Setting := 3
Maximum Neutral Player Medium Setting := 7
Minimum Neutral Player High Setting := 6
Maximum Neutral Player High Setting := 10
Fighter Supply Usage Per Turn := 5
Fighters Can Be Hit By Mines := True
Maximum Planet Percent Value := 250
Minimum Planet Percent Value := 0
Maximum Planet Resource Value := 999000000
Minimum Planet Resource Value := 0
Bases Can Join Fleets := False
No Retrofit Adding Of Spaceyards := True
No Retrofit Adding Of Colony Module := True
Seeker Combat Defense Modifier := 40
Planet Combat Offense Modifier := 30
Planet Combat Defense Modifier := -200

AGoetz

January 20th, 2003, 06:03 AM

For the races that PF has released AIs for but which I have no graphics etc I've just dummied up the remaining data files, let them use default ship graphics and pulled race images out of the standard game (so they definetly don't look right).

I have to do some more playing around, but I'm starting to get to the stage that I cannot narrow the RCEs down to specific hull sizes/engine techs (so I think we have pretty much gotten all the easy ones now). Example : Dilgar (I think, or was it the Abbai? Got to check.) got an RCE on the same turn that they discovered Long Range Scanners I (and no other techs). Doesn't make much sense to me, so I went through their Design_Creation file and removed every line requesting Long Range Scanners (about 5 of them) and tried again. The game still RCEed. I have absolutely no idea.

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 06:20 AM

Grumbler: I gave the Dilgar to Val to clean up. I guess I could post the shipset if ya'll understand these are very rough images and IF Val returns, a much improved (textures & lighting) will be available then.

[ January 20, 2003, 04:40: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 06:47 AM

The rough Dilgar ship set for B5 MOD:

1043037950.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043037950.ZIP)

grumbler

January 20th, 2003, 07:12 AM

Just a random thought regarding RCEs. Most of them seem to have to do with engines. What if we made the engine requirement 1 per 100 tons vice 1 per 50, and doubled all costs for engines? Even a planet-killer (which I have never seen, BTW) could go speed 10 at that rate (plus bonuses) and the normal lessor ships would be much easier for the AI to figure out. It would mean abandoning the "+50" ships like the heavy destroyer and the ecort, but might be worth it.

Just a thought...

Fireblade

January 20th, 2003, 08:29 AM

grumbler had me playtest his gold fix.

Another bug:

(race)_ai_fleets.txt

Percentage of fleets to use for defense := (variable?)

(race)_ai_settings.txt

Ships don't move through minefields := false
Ships don't move through restricted systems := false
Clear orders on encounter enemy := false
Clear orders on encounter all := false
Percentage of total satellites to keep as planetary cargo := 40
Percentage of total drones to keep as planetary cargo := 40
Number Of Anti-Ship Drones Per Target := 3
Number Of Anti-Planet Drones Per Target := 3
Maximum Anti-Ship Drone Target System Distance := 5
Maximum Anti-Planet Drone Target System Distance := 5

Timstone

January 20th, 2003, 12:19 PM

Sigh... I really hope Val returns, only he knows the full extend of the mod.
When my exams are over (I don't know the exact word for it. Midterms, was it not?), I'll go ahead with TAInT King and implement them into the mod. The images take more time to make, so first step is the data, then the pics. Oh, and I'll want to make the Ipsha techs too. You know, since I'm making their shipset.

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 10:29 PM

Latest B5 MOD AI (pre-gold) from Da path:

1043094274.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043094274.ZIP)

My latest fixes:

Version B5-VI-Path-C:

1: Re-did settings for "engines per move" for all ships (B5 standard) to prevent range check errors.

2: Re-did minimum/desired speeds in most ships, again to halt range check errors.

3: Changed to "resource generation - organics as ability for armor (leaky) and loaded armor into all ships/bases/wp as a misc ability.

4: Re-set maximum number engines for baseship and heavy baseship to 100 in order to prevent range check errors.

5: Took out misc. ability "solar generation" from scouts, colony ships, population transports, repair tugs to prevent 2 or more reactors from being designed into ships by the AI.

6: Changed defense base misc. ability from "solar generation" to "combat movement" to prevent reactors from being designed and to add "station keeping engines" to the designs.

7: Added scatter pulse and quad pulse weapons to Dilgar (based on same weapons used by Llort) in components.txt file.

8: Hopefully I didn't forget something I did, my notes are not the best.

AND HOPEFULLY most RCEs are gone..

Note: I am unskilled in making zip files, so mine don't self-extract to the B5 MOD directory. You have to manually load them in. Sorry..

[ January 20, 2003, 20:30: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 10:39 PM

Timstone: Electromagnetic weapons (Surge cannon, Surge bLaster). I think (not sure) that their PD is the EM pulsar. They also have a short range resonance generator and spark field. Good luck in figuring out the damage effects and range of all 10 levels on each one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . I guess they primarily use electromagnetic reactors and drives.

Hehe, I got a headache when I looked at the damage/range stuff earlier. You are more than welcome to establish these techs!

Timstone

January 20th, 2003, 10:43 PM

PF: Haha... don't get headaches, they suck. I find the range/damage question quite pleasing to do. It's rewarding to see all the weapons in the game. BTW. the sparkfield is their PD weapon. The EM pulsar is also a PD weapon, but it mainly used against mines and large ships because it causes damage on all sides of the enemy.
Don't expect an update soon. I'll be studying for the Last modterm... ehh, I meant midterm.

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 10:48 PM

Timstone: Hehe, though actually the graphic/pic for the image mod so they can be seen in-game may actually the hardest to do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

pathfinder

January 20th, 2003, 11:22 PM

*grumble* Despite my testing, at least three errors got by me. A typo in the Earth Alliance & Gaim AI_designcreation (large Colony ship, can't remember which one...Ice i think) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif and the Lnaw AI designcreation got corrupted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif .

I'll post a fix later for them.

All the LNAW is, is a slightly tweaked default AI_designcreation.

Maybe one of you other testers could look at the LNAW and see what got scrambled...???

[ January 20, 2003, 21:40: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 21st, 2003, 02:47 AM

This corrects the EA & Gaim AI_designcreation.txt typos and a new LNAW AI_Designcreation.txt

1043109898.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043109898.ZIP)

Again, yo'll have to manually extract to the mod pictures/race folder

grumbler

January 21st, 2003, 04:18 AM

PF: Noted the following errors in the LNAW design_creation:

Destroyer states 8 misc abilities, lists 9
Defense Base states 9, lists 8 (causes fault)
Base SPace Yard states 10, lists 11

If there are more than the stated number, the program just ignores the extras.

grumbler

January 21st, 2003, 04:19 AM

PF: oops, see you caught that.

AGoetz

January 21st, 2003, 10:05 PM

Not sure what has changed, but when I'm no longer getting Infantry Matter Guns. I've got 4 levels in Matter Weapons, 1 in General Tiny Weapons and 1 in Infantry - that used to be good enough to get Infantry Matter Gun I and show Infantry Matter Gun II under General Tiny Weapons II.

Edit : I think I've found part of the problem - there is no line break between Pulsar Mine X and Quad Pulsar I (Dilgar) and there are two line breaks between Quad Pulsar X (Dilgar) and Quad Pulsar I (LLort). Still doesn't bring back Infantry Matter Gun or Boarding Parties but did bring back ScatterGuns - there must be another CRLF screw up in here somewhere ...

[ January 21, 2003, 23:11: Message edited by: AGoetz ]

pathfinder

January 22nd, 2003, 05:36 AM

AGoetz: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ...sorry, I'll check and see wth is up....

pathfinder

January 22nd, 2003, 06:25 AM

This hopefully fixes the spacing errors in the B5 data/components.txt file.

1043209409.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043209409.ZIP)

There was also a run together in addition to the spacing errors AGoetz found.

pathfinder

January 22nd, 2003, 01:25 PM

1043234622.ZIP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1043234622.ZIP)

Replaces earlier one (still had an error).

B5 data/components.txt.

Left out word "quad" from quad shield damage in flash missile I for Drazi.

[ January 22, 2003, 11:27: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

AGoetz

January 23rd, 2003, 12:04 AM

In the never ending quest to find RCEs, here's another one for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Abbai researched Medical Bay I - RCE occured. Have I had a game go long enough to have a Medical Ship RCE before?

In the good news, in my current game some of the races have Ship 12 and Propulsion 12 and are fielding SuperDreadnougts with Ultra-Efficient Fusion Drives without problem. I'm currently the MEE, got the Shag'Toth to surrender whole (You have one planet, we have 80 planets, 12 Space Yards and 30 Base Mounted Ship Yards - Join us or willing or unwilling) and are at war with the Llort and Narn.

pathfinder

January 23rd, 2003, 05:14 AM

AGoetz: So far unable to duplicate that RCE. Of course most races are only at lvl 5 ship construction...

AGoetz

January 23rd, 2003, 06:46 AM

I'll check the Abbai's Ship and Propulsion levels when I get a chance, probably be tommorow before I get back to you.

AGoetz

January 23rd, 2003, 09:04 AM

Earlier than I anticipated.
Well of course now that I'm lookng for it the RCE doesn't occur. But anyway the Abbai are currently level 11 in Ship Building and level 11 in Propulsion. An oddity - the Abbia have Basic ECM III but all of the ships only have Basic ECM I installed.
Abbai current Dreadnought design :
20 Ultraefficient Fusion Engines
Massive Fusion Reactor
7 Heavy BLast Cannon IV
2 Fighter Bay I (wish the AI would load fighters on all these bay equipped capital ships)
Basic ECM I
Basic Combat Sensors III
Required Bridge, Life Support, Crew Quarters and Military component.
No armor though ?

[ January 23, 2003, 07:04: Message edited by: AGoetz ]

pathfinder

January 23rd, 2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by AGoetz:
Earlier than I anticipated.
Well of course now that I'm lookng for it the RCE doesn't occur. But anyway the Abbai are currently level 11 in Ship Building and level 11 in Propulsion. An oddity - the Abbia have Basic ECM III but all of the ships only have Basic ECM I installed.
Abbai current Dreadnought design :
20 Ultraefficient Fusion Engines
Massive Fusion Reactor
7 Heavy BLast Cannon IV
2 Fighter Bay I (wish the AI would load fighters on all these bay equipped capital ships)
Basic ECM I
Basic Combat Sensors III
Required Bridge, Life Support, Crew Quarters and Military component.
No armor though ?I have no idea why they won't use latest sensor/ecm.

nor do I know why "no armor". The 'resource generation - organics" misc ability is the call for armor...*shrug*

thorfrog

January 23rd, 2003, 03:49 PM

I have all of the major races but non of the smaller ones. Where can you find those sets?

pathfinder

January 24th, 2003, 03:10 AM

Atomannj: I made a number of shipsets (Abbai, Dilgar, Drazi (some), Pak'Ma'Ra, Cascor (some), Gaim (some), Brakiri (VERY rough)). Val was finishing them up while waiting for me to finish their AI_designcreation and AI_research files but that fell through as he hasn't been "seen" since before Thanksgiving.

In other words, they not "published".

[ January 24, 2003, 01:27: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 24th, 2003, 03:31 AM

ALL: How close to 'canon" do I need to have the weapons in AI_designcreation. As is the Dilgar would be very easy victims to most other races unless I use a bit more "modern" weapons, as in Shadow War era Versions versus Dilgar War Versions. Thinking along a single-player game, not a PBW or RP PBW/PBEM game.

Fyron

January 24th, 2003, 05:22 AM

To remain competitive, the Dilgar should not have extremely sub-par weaponry. Remember, this is a mod, not a scenario. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 24, 2003, 03:22: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

AGoetz

January 24th, 2003, 07:14 AM

Unless someone is going to go to a lot of work, of course this mod will be unbalanced. Even ignoring the power of the Ancient Races, the differences between what the various races have available will add up.
For example in an older game (as Gaim) I captured a bunch of Vree tech, enough that I could research their Heavy Antimatter Weapons line. I looked at the results, compared to the Particle Concentrator I already had and stayed with the PC - longer ranged and it was so much cheaper that I ignored the slightly higher damage and smaller size of the Vree Antimatter Cannon.
As it currently is, no-one has more choice than the EA for weapons (for that matter, does anyone else have a mine clearer that can wipe out 20 mines per use? 5 of these on a ship and that 100 strong mine field is gone). Races with fighter mounted missiles have a huge advantage in battles over those that don't.
A weapon that is definety broken - the HARM Missile. A single hit from the mark I variety will eliminate the ship from the rest of the battle as it's weapons will not recover before battle timeout occurs. A human designer will make sure that there are other missiles launched first to absorb the PDF.

Timstone

January 24th, 2003, 12:18 PM

AGoetz: You are absolutely right. The whole mod is very unbalanced. I thought (hoped) Val knew what to do with it, since he was the founder of the mod. I thought he all had it calculated. But now he's goen. The whole persepective on the mod has changed dramaticly. With him out of the picture (maybe). I think we seriously need to remake the mod. Nobody knows excatly how the mod works and what the endresult must look like. I think we need to rethink our mod.
Okay, this won't be a very popular anouncement, but let's begin from scratch again. The first thing we need to do is to make an inventory of all the races we want to include. Then we take a look at which races are already included. After that we pick volunteers who's job it is to make ajustments to the particular races they want to do. Then step by step the whole mod will emerge agian. And this time with all the stuff in the right places. We have accumalted enough knowledge to do this. When we decide to remake this beautiful mod, I volunteer to do the Ipsha and the Ancients (minus the Vorlons and the Shadows).
We can even call in some help from other people around this forum.
What do you guys think about it?

I think if we don't do this, this mod will be a never ending proces.

(the sentence above was edited in)

[ January 24, 2003, 10:28: Message edited by: Timstone ]

Timstone

January 24th, 2003, 01:28 PM

The message below is for everyone to comment on of course. Come on people, say something about it. I'm really interestd in your thoughts. I was pondering about this plan for a while, but AGoetz was the proverbial drop. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Two questions: If I want to give a groundtrooper a weapon. What do I select as "Can Traget" and "Vehicle Type"?
If I give "Ftr/Trp" to it, can a GroundTrooper use the weapon?

pathfinder

January 24th, 2003, 01:39 PM

For infantry-type weapons take a look at the infantry matter gun in data/components file. that should at least give you a method of how to set-up the weapon data to be placed in the components file. Troop (armor) weapons follow a similar pattern.

As for re-doing the MOD. Not me.

Timstone

January 24th, 2003, 01:45 PM

PF: Thanks for the info. Stupid me, could have thought about that myself. To quote Geo: Doh!

About the remake. Why not?! Do you really think this mod is ever going to be finished?! No, I don't think so. Not as long doesn't Val returns. And even if it's going to be finished. It will need a thousand hours tweaking period. That's not the way to go. Well at least in my vision. Why not make the mod very small at first and add more races as you go along. At least finish the core, then you'll be a lot further than we're now. All we've got now are some bits and pieces.

Stupid typos.

[ January 24, 2003, 11:46: Message edited by: Timstone ]

jimbob

January 24th, 2003, 06:39 PM

If you're going to start from scratch (I won't say "if we" start from scratch, cause I wouldn't be much help) I'd just like to suggest a few things.

1) don't have a separate tech tree for each race. There is currently a "general" tech tree for lasers (for example) and then a separate laser tech for each and every race. This redundancy is killer on both file size, etc. etc.

Proposal: Have a single tech tree, and then have all the race specific components have the requirement of the general tech + the racial trait (level 1).

2) make the mod "ready" for the eventual synthesis into the Sci Fi Cross-Over Mod (X-over). You may ask yourself "Self, why would I want to do this?" And I would say to you "because it will increase the number of people interested in playing your mod!!" Not everyone is a B5 fan - yet. But they are a SW fan, or a ST fan, etc. And maybe they'll get bit by the B5 bug when they play against the B5 universe in a cross-over game. It may be a tiny bit more work initially, but it will save a lot of work later. This would be pretty easy to do, and if there is interest, maybe this should be worked out with Andres before the project goes too far.

just my thoughts, feel free to ignore.

grumbler

January 24th, 2003, 09:21 PM

Re: a "restart."

I think that if we decide to follow Timstone's suggestion, we should first "clean up" the existing mod. Not adding anything, just taking out those techs that don't yield anything (like Ship Enhancement Level 4, or Armor under basic sciences) and creating a stable "Version 1" mod.

Then, we can come back and look at the new mod in light of what was learned from the first go-around. Like engines. I HATE having to wade through 20+ 5 ton engines trying to figure out my reactor needs. Like the weapons techs, which as jimbob points out are hard to calculate. In fact, unless you know how to read the components files, it isn't possible to rationally decide what weapons techs to pursue. E.g., unless you can read the components file, what tells you as the Minbari to research (almost exclusively) Molecular weapons? Or as the narn, ballistic weapons? This could all be re-evaluated in the light of experience.

The overall thrust and feel of the mod are outstanding, IMO. It really is a completely different game than the original, and more "different" than any mod I have played. however, it really does require a good knowedge of the nuts and bolts of the system to play well, and I think we can do better.

I will help with this effort.

I would like to also suggest that you reconsider the idea of making this a primarily 1.49 mod, with a port to Gold. Conidering the amount of time you are spending on this, the fact the Gold continues to be patched and 1.49 won't be, and that judging by PBW there are twice the number of Gold players as 1.49 players... is the money really an obstacle? I will continue to be willing to port over the games, but think going "native Gold" makes a lot of sense.

pathfinder

January 25th, 2003, 01:43 AM

Guess this is my post-logue or whatever. Not up to a re-write myself. No hard feelings on my part but I won't be a part of a total re-write. Not that some things aren't broken, weapons sure are, LCPU are, trading Posts are. *shrug* I been too deep in the weeds to stomach a total re-write, so I guess I am out of here.

Later...

Oh and BTW...The main thrust for Minbari may be the molecular weapons but their BEST (damage & range) weapon is the neutron laser (laser tech)!

[ January 25, 2003, 00:49: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Rambie

January 25th, 2003, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by pathfinder:
No hard feelings on my part but I won't be a part of a total re-write. Not that some things aren't broken, weapons sure are, LCPU are, trading Posts are...Let's not get hasty, I don't think we (like I helped much) need to totally re-write the MOD. I do agree that fixing the major races -EA, Narn, Centauri, Minbari, and a few others- should be done to make a stable MOD.

The question is, what needs to be done to make the mod stable?

pathfinder

January 25th, 2003, 05:56 AM

Trading Posts: limit one per planet (same as space yard). AI builds them like fleas.

LCPU...make it exactly like master computer...only one per ship (that IS a requirement but AI ignores that).

Above are annoyances not imbalances.

Weapons are broke/not balanced. Mostly what needs is re-write of designcreation to use MOST effective (instead of neo-"canon") weapons available. Some weapons are WAY to powerful (eg molecular slicer for shadows {matter of fact ALL shadow weapons have way too much range in comparison to other races--should ahve more but not as much). fixing the weapons MAY fix the "canon" weapon imbalance.

Not sure if any more RCE inducers are there. MOST are gone (at least the ones that have plagued the testing since I started in May).

Work needs to start on both the construction facility and construction vehicle files to get the most out of the AI's also. I been mostly fixing those RCEs and except for a trial foray into getting fighters to work, nothing has been done with these two files.

[ January 25, 2003, 12:06: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Fyron

January 25th, 2003, 09:50 AM

Restarting the mod from scratch would be a bad idea.

grumbler

January 25th, 2003, 11:01 PM

PF: Agree in principle, but ROF should play into the calculation as well. Assuming that it takes 5 turns to get within range, a fighter IT (ROF 1/15 turns)would fire twice in a combat, while the ship Version (rof 1/2 turns) would fire 15 times. The imbalance isn't as great as it seems at first blush.

My real problem with the ship-based ion torpedo is simply that it doesn't get any of the economies of scale that large, etc mounts give to equivelent DF weapons. I think we need to look at creating component enhancements for seekers as well.

I also think that the way to increase range might be better handled using compnent enhancement (like currently done for satellites and bases) rather than just improved weapons themselves. As it is, ships like the shadow escorts can considerably outrange other races' capital ships. By considerably lowering the range of the weapons themselves, and especially light weapons, and then adding back in range using large+ component enhancements, we could restore the advantage ship size gives in the real world - not just more weapons, but bigger and longer-ranged ones.

All: When I talk about a "complete re-write" of the mod, what I am talking about is a re-thinking of the mod from the ground up, based on experience with the game. Not all that much would have to be re-written or changed - mostly just the components and vehicle-size files.

For instance, do we really want to cripple the speed of the larger ships in order to have a few "x50" ton ships? Doersn't it make more sense, now that we have played the game, to make the engine per move divisor 100 rather than 50? Planet killers should be slow, sure, but a max speed of 5 (9 with all possible bonuses)? Why, using newtonian physics as our model, are we deliberately letting the 253 limit, rather than space avaiable for engines, drive the max speeds?

Anyway, those are the kinds of things I am talking about when I say re-write (and probably mean re-examine). If no one is really very interested in this, then I can live with the decisions made to date (after all, I can just mod things to suit myself and leave the "official Version" as per the consensus).

Seeing all the work that was done before I came on the scene, and having read all 160+ pages of this thread, I know that lots of this has been hashed out in some form or another. I just think that experience may give folks a different view when re-examining decisions made in the past.

Fyron

January 25th, 2003, 11:10 PM

Comp enhancements for Seekers can only affect size, cost, supplies, and range fired at (but not actual range). They can not affect damage at all.

pathfinder

January 25th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Grumbler: hmmm...agree in principle, mostly anyways. weapons definitely, IMHO, need some re-evaluation. Not sure about the tonnage thing (the math makes my head hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). I am re-doing the AI_designcreation files in an effort to make some of the races more competitive while still retaining some racial "flavor". also making race-specific AI_construction facility files (done with that, though they'll look similar). Gonna try and make AI_construction vehicle files too but those will be more difficult (racial differences)...

[ January 25, 2003, 21:55: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 02:09 AM

Example (IMHO) of weapon imbalance:

Cenaturi:

Light Ballistic torpedo (fighter weapon): Range 10, damage 47.

Ballistic Torpedo (ship): range 10, damage 39 (!?).

Fighter-based weapons IMHO should be weaker in damage than the ship based ones and probably shorter range. Though here a balance of PD range vs fighter weapon should also be looked at.

[ January 25, 2003, 12:12: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

grumbler

January 26th, 2003, 02:53 AM

PF: Agree that the contruction_facilities files almost have to be very similar, otherwise there will be sub-optimal ones. I've never seen mining as a very key priority, since maint costs are so low, for instance, and you only ever really need one educational center, since arch digs are so much cheaper and nearly as good. Maybe the facilities files themselves need some work.

Tell me what I can do to help with the vehicle design Ai files, I am starting to get the hang of the AI stuff by following in your wake.

IF: Pity about the seeker enhancements. Is it worthwhile to consider adding back in torpedoes for the torpedo-like seekers (e.g. Ion torpedos)?

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 03:08 AM

Grumbler: take a race (or two) and look at the race(s)' weapons. See if there can be balance improvements (eg Shadows molecular slicer maybe a little shorter in range and not quite so much damage, also maybe has longer recharge time, [not 1 pop per turn! versus 4 turns for heavy laser http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ] )

I'll update my weapon spreadsheet and post it tommorow I guess so it will be easier to figure this out without going to the components.txt file http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif all it does is give the "canon" weapons used by any of a races ships.

[ January 26, 2003, 01:10: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 04:15 AM

Okies, me doing a down and dirty convert to Gold using TDM Gold race files.

then gonna test it....

The Canuck

January 26th, 2003, 04:24 AM

Hey all, i have some bad news, im gonna have to drop out of the PBW B5 mod game as RL has gotten in the way. i have 2 mods to do, one on my own for SEIV, a painting for cover art for my friends band TRANSFIXT, and school work so for now i dont have time, but maybe next game during the summer or something ill have time, anyways ill still be around and what not, sorry if i screwed up anything

Peace

P.S. whoever is in charge of the PBW game just email me if i need to do anything

[ January 26, 2003, 02:25: Message edited by: The Canuck ]

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 05:48 AM

Big problem with conVersion: Target type----do you HAVE to add drone to target type?

grumbler

January 26th, 2003, 05:59 AM

PF: Yep, you have to have the target types include drones if they are also ftr/sat, ftr/sat/WP, etc.

You also have to have drones as the using platform if you have ftr/trp, etc.

That conVersion alone takes about an hour with the existing components file, and that's using the find and replace feature. that file is just a monster!

Then you have to change every vehicle in the vehicles file to include "Primary bitmap image" and "alternate bitmap image" - which takes another 90 minutes or so, since you cannot do it except by hand.

Plus some other changes.

So, the two Versions do not work together, and conVersion is a *****! That's why I haven't followed each of your imprvements with an improved Gold Version - its lengthy and dull work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OTOH, you have continued with your lengthy and dull work on the AI mods, so I am a bit ashamed of complaining.

But only a bit! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Graeme Dice

January 26th, 2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by grumbler:
My real problem with the ship-based ion torpedo is simply that it doesn't get any of the economies of scale that large, etc mounts give to equivelent DF weapons. I think we need to look at creating component enhancements for seekers as well.
I think a better idea would be to remove the weapon mounts altogether, as that would make the active armours much more useful.

Lighthorse

January 26th, 2003, 06:47 AM

Pathfinder

Do you want me to forward the excel spreadsheet I did for Val on SE4/B5mod weapons to you?

Lighthorse

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 07:20 AM

Naw, I already have it. Maybe post or link it so Grumbler can get/use it.

pathfinder

January 26th, 2003, 06:59 PM

Timstone: No anger or hurt here. Tired, yes. Weapons are the biggest muddle/imbalance, I think most, if not all, will agree with that. Not sure what approach will get "biggest bang for the buck" and not take another year to implement. But SOMETHING sure needs to be done with them.

BTW I have gotten the biggest bugs fixed and now have a "tarnished" Gold conVersion of what I have on the MOD. Should be fairly up-to-date (based on latest [I hope] TDM AI).

Now to figure out how to zip it so the rest of ya can test it...all I have is the basic/non-registered winzip (lost registration data during format of HDD).

This what I am going to do. just be patient since I can't auto-exe the zip file, so you folks will have to manually place them. I will make the folder structure like the MOD so it shouldn't be TOO painful. I will upload just the data and AI files I changed to make a Gold Version.

[ January 26, 2003, 20:30: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

grumbler

January 27th, 2003, 12:06 AM

PF: I have tried a little experiment with the weapons. I simply made a rule: all light weapons have a basic range of 2, medium of 4, long of 6. Lasers get +1 range but reduced damage, seekers +2.

Level 1 weapons lost 1 range, level 6 (the highest I went in a short game) got +1. Medium ship mounts got +2 (large would get +4 and massive +6, but again I didn't go that far).

In the short game, things seemed to work out a bit better. Obviously, the low ROF weapons weren't any good - I will try to come up with a reasonable compromise between ROF and range. However, the smaller ships didn't prove as dominating as in the earlier games. In particular, Shadow escorts could no longer zap enemy light cruisers with impunity.

I am working on a cost-benefit calculation for range, hitting power, and ROF. It will have to be empirical, though, since the tradeoffs are not necessarily strictly numerical, and they definately change based on strategic vs tactical combat (since the human player can shoot and scoot and the computer cannot).

Hopefully, such a formula will allow us to more cogently talk about weapons.

ALL: I don't like the idea of abandoning weapons mounts, for somewhat personal "stylistic" reasons. If you get rid of them, especially with the rules as is on reactive armor, then capital ships become a losing game.

Take the example of 800 tons of warships in two cases: one battleship and two light cruisers.

The battleship has 50 tons locked up in required components, the 2 CLs 60 tons. It will take the BB 245 tons of standard fusion engines to get a speed of 16, while it will take the 2 CLs 250 tons to do the same.

At first blush, the BB looks like the better deal, as it has 505 tons to devote to weaponry, armor, and sensor/ECM, while the 2 CLs have only 490 tons. However, when you add in the fact that the 2 CLs can have 2 sets of reactive armor, they seem the better deal. Smaller ships get the advantage of additional reactive armor protection, even if they have to carry more sensors et al to get it.

I don't think we want games where hordes of small ships fight it out. Capital ships should be distinctly different, and more powerful, and more expensive on a ton for ton basis. It should take a capital ship to match a capital ship.

The way to make that happen it with the weapons mounts. I see a triple-cost/double- tonnage/double-damage/increased-range formula as working better than the double-cost/double- tonnage/triple-damage formula used now. that way, capital ships get range as their primary benefit, and pay for it in cost.

thoughts?

pathfinder

January 27th, 2003, 01:02 AM

Grumbler: hehe, I'll ley you and whoever else wants that headache (weapons) to work on it all you want http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I don't care if one race has a small advantage, as long as there is another with a different advantage so they balance out. I agree on the need for cap ships..it is much more satisfying to see one of them blow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Jamorobo

January 27th, 2003, 01:44 AM

You have to remember that range is only good if you've got a chance of hitting the enemy. No point wasting a heavy laser at med/long range with 25% chance to hit as you will have to wait 4 turns for it to reload.

The problem with B5 (which also makes it good) is the fact that there are so many different weapons and it's going to be damn hard to work out a ballace for all (that is if we keep all the weapons. i my self want to keep all) What you need first is a list of all the weapons, firstly general weapons everyone can have and then race specific weapons. Then we can all decide on how each weapons will be different and how it progresses, this allows us in the end to make sure that all the weapons are ballanced before plowing through the component file.

Capital ship battles are a must as the main ships in combat, the main thing about Capital ships is there large enought to effectivly hold fighters. my test on the current Version (fighters my be a big unbalanced but bare with me) my EA battle cruiser with 12 heavy fighters ( 4 cobra bay 3's) and assorted laser weapons could take out two EA battle cruisers that don't have fighter bays but more weapons.

Fyron

January 27th, 2003, 02:03 AM

Right click on the B5 Mod folder, and use the winzip button to make a zip file out of it.

The unregistered Version of winzip only gives a registration message. It still has the same functionality as the registered Version.

Shadow ships should be able to zap other race's ships easily (except Vorlons), because they can not colonize. If their ships are the same as other races, they have no chance of survival. The same goes for the Vorlons.

[ January 27, 2003, 00:04: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Timstone

January 27th, 2003, 02:10 AM

Sorry guys for not replying that fast.
Okay we don't all agree on what needs to be done. I can see PF's problem with the whole situation. But Grumbler made a very useable reply. My idea was to revise not to completely remake the mod. If we would do that, we would be wiping out half a year of work. That would be a shame. The basis of our mod is very good, the feel and atmosphere is very good. No complaints here. Only the imbalance of some weapons and the total choas in the files is something worthwhile to improve. That is what I wanted to remake.
Since I began on TAInT King (The Ancients In The maKing), I was introduced to the mayhem in the components file. It's a real mess in there. When I started with the basic design of the 8 remaining Ancients, I had to choose which techfamilies I had to include for every weapon. That made me realise it all had to be simple.
Example: I gave the Triad Combined Aspects a AntMatter Wave. Although this is a AntiMatter powered weapon, I gave it requirements in the fields of Triad Light Weapons and Plasma Weapons. Why? Well, The Triad Combined Aspects use primarily Plasma based weapons and to keep it simple, I gave the requirement to all their weapons.
Also I gave every Ancient 8 weapons [tiny (Fighter/Troop), light (Ship), light (PDF), medium (Torpedo), Heavy (Ship), Mega (Ship) and Ultra (Ship, One Per Vehicle)]. This really makes the making of each race very much less complicated. Again the principle of simplicity; don't give each race too many weapons. You won't be able to use them all anyway. And I you do want more weapons, just add them later on.
All this simplicity has one big downside though. The diversity is not a big as it could be. Each race has more or less the same weaponstructure. To play each race to it's limits, you just have to master the different weapons (some fire faster, some use them to reder the opponent unable to fight back, etc...), the rest of the tactics behind a specific race is more or less the same as with any other race.

So the main question stays. What shall we do? Shall we re-evaluate things and start making repairs to our precious mod? Or shall we mud on with the concept we have before us?

PF: In no way I'm angry or something. I just had some thoughts about the way we're handling things at this time. And above all, I think you're currently the most valuable member of our ModCrew. If I offended you of hurt you, I appologise.

pathfinder

January 27th, 2003, 02:13 AM

Intersting: Drazi just did a GROPOS on an EA planet.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Seen this happen quite a few in the standard game (this is in current Gold test game)...

Shadow Master

January 27th, 2003, 02:31 AM

On the topic of fighter ships..
All my large (Drazi) ships have 1 launch catapult.
The fighters are more a distraction than a threat unless I can get some good weaps for them. Found those few extra fighters can turn the tide.

I have found with weapons:
Shadows have long range strong weaps but 1 group has better fighter weap (electrical thingy)

Torvalus have long range strong weaps comparible with Shadows but the power laser has longer reload

Streib have a nice reload increase fighter weapon

Vorlons have stronger fighter and similar ship weapons to Shadows

Drazi have big fighters that hold more (less potent) weapons than others

Also many weapons have pased damage but no sheilds exist AT ALL! (oh wait emissive armor creates sheilds, are those phased or normal?)

pathfinder

January 27th, 2003, 03:31 AM

ShadowMaster: Not sure if the passive armors are normal or phased, methinks normal shields...

Suicide Junkie

January 27th, 2003, 04:18 AM

The passive armors should have phased shield ability.

Weapons that skip armor, or ship shields will negate the bonus effects of the passive armor, and are NOT generally reccommended!

Do you really want a weapon that will turn the shadow's armor into cheap inert junk?

You can use the Quad-to-shields damage type (and its variants) to tweak the penetration ability of your weapon much more effectively.

Quarter damage = 80% absorbed (max 4x crystalline ability)
Half damage = 66% absorbed (max 2x crystal ability)
normal = 50% absorbed (max 1x crystal ability)
Double = 33% absorbed (max 1/2 crystal ability)
Quad = 20% absorbed (max 1/4 crystal ability)

pathfinder

January 27th, 2003, 05:46 AM

SJ: all the abilities list is Shield generation/regeneration for the various passive armors.

All: Why would the AI not "turn on" for the neutrals? In other words what did I do to "kill" the neutrals? Only thing that shows up in design menu is weapon platforms...They do not have any facilities on the HW..??!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ January 27, 2003, 04:28: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

Suicide Junkie

January 27th, 2003, 06:08 AM

Well, I suppose it really dosen't matter, since there aren't any true shields anyways, and the phased + non-phased = non phased thing is a non-issue.

If you want to make a weapon that negates the bonus protection of some low level armors, but not the top armors, you could add "phased" to them...
Not sure how that would make sense, but it is possible.

Fyron

January 27th, 2003, 09:53 AM

Regarding the PBW game...

Ok... Val is MIA. Are the Technomages in a playable state in 1.49.33? If so, we need a replacement. If not, I will finish the empire slot off.

The Canuck has posted in Shrapnel that he has no time to play this game. Since I entered a password for that empire file, I know what it is, and so a replacement can take over with no trouble.

Zero Adunn seems to be having a few problems getting the mod to work, but I think he will get that fixed soon.

Comments? Suggestions? Complaints?

jimbob

January 27th, 2003, 05:16 PM

Fyron: I'd be happy to take either slot, seeing as the nomads/Lorkan need a bit of work still (few facilities available, no research facilities, etc.).

I'd need passwords however...

-jimbob

grumbler

January 27th, 2003, 07:24 PM

PF: what you describe happens when the AI race doesn't get the "B5 standard race" trait. It then has no facilities, ships, etc.

Timstone

January 27th, 2003, 10:45 PM

Hi gang! I'm back again from work. Sigh, what a day, what a day, what a day...
It's good to see that many people care about our great mod. Grumbler there gave some nice idea's. But the turnside of it is the lack in originality. No more many diverse weapons. A much better way to standardise things is to implement a maximum amount of damage a younger race can do with it's weapons. The medium old races get a higher maximum amount of damage and the ancient races get the highest maximum amount of damage. That way you can still fill in the range and the damage continuation (how much the damage degrades or increases acording to the range).
I tell you guys what. This week is a reasonably quiet week for me, if I find the time for it I'll write down the weapons that every race should get (the standard weapons). With that done, we can assign every other weapons to a specific race. In other words. We're going to split up the mess we've created so far into smaller block/modules. If you want another race implemented, you can fall back on the standard tech tree and give the new weapons a requirement in the standard tech tree and a requirement in a new family. (Grumbler's idea)
The step beyond that is to kick out every race and evaluate every race. See if it can be standardized 9before that we've got to come up with a standard amount of weapons (which can be upgraded in later Versions)).
Example of standard amount of wepaons (basicly the example I gave earlier):
Tiny (Fighter/Troop), Light (PDF), Light (Ship), Medium (Seeking-weapon, Ship), Heavy (mainstay Ship), Mega (Rare Ship), Ultra (One Per Vehicle, Ship)
Something like this?

AGoetz

January 28th, 2003, 01:13 AM

Well, if we are going to be looking at the weapons system, here is what the Gaim currently have :

Tiny
-Light Particle Beam
-Light Particle Gun
Light
-PDF Scattergun
Medium
-Scattergun
Heavy
-Packet Torpedo (Seeker)
-Particle Concentrator
Mega
-None
Ultra
-None
Special
-Life Support (1/2 size, also 1/2 structure)
-Crew Quarters (1/2 size)
-Fighter Cockpit (combination cockpit/life support)
-Bulkhead (First hit armor, size 5 structure 10 so inefficent compared to the leaky armors)
-Breaching Pods (higher number of marines than a normal boarding component)

[ January 27, 2003, 23:15: Message edited by: AGoetz ]

pathfinder

January 28th, 2003, 01:52 AM

Grumler, et al: Looks like the ORDER that they are listed is important here. "B5 Standard Race" has to be listed 1st in the AI_general.txt file as an advanced trait in order for the neutral to be loaded properly.

Guess I'll d/l the new patch and se what kind of headache I get with the MOD http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On weapons: SOMETHING has to be, just not sure what. 2 things (may be incompatible ??)...Ancient weapons SHOULD be suprior to the mid and younger races; HOWEVER, there should be counters available to the mid and younger races....also the diversity is what makes the MOD interesting (IMHO) for humans to play; HOWEVER, that is what is giving all of us a headache to program the AI to use. One of the componentenhancement mods (mounts) had a neat concept that worked very well. one set of mounts that gave a slight advantage to the AI but limited them to that small decision set while allowing the human a great number of options. Anyway for the races to keep maybe 1 to 2 weapons/mounts so it easier for them to pick. I think, if there is a concensus, that I can do some limits via the AI_designcreation files but the damage/range/rate of fire issues need fixing to some degree.

One personal Comment: Except for the Fuser plasma weapon the Pakmara get, most plasma weapons stink. They have less range than any other weapon and should but even the heavy plasma weapons only have a range of 1-2....bleah no opton IMHO...while their range maybe less the range is too limited IMHO (and they have inaccuracy built in too, IIRC). and they are slow...why not up the range with maybe a faster rate of fall off in damage and keep them relatively inaccurate? just some food for thought...

[ January 28, 2003, 00:28: Message edited by: pathfinder ]