Babylon 5 Mod

[thorfrog]

Great to see this kind of energy back into this project!

[Stargrazer]

We were asked to put in our two cents worth... Well, I guess that my opinion will be that of an average gamer, as grumbler seems to have taken care of the rest.

I really enjoy the B5 universe, and I like the Mod. I feel that game play needs to be trimmed up a bit in two areas. The construction times and the tech trees. I find the tech trees somewhat convuluted and redundant, and I think that if these were adjusted, it would make the game move a little faster. As well, I think that the construction times should be somewhat quicker. Not as fast as in the regular game, but not as long as in this mod currently....

My two cents...

Stargrazer

[grumbler]

Well, I got the Trading Ports built by giving them the "Palace" ability and requiring "Palace" as the first build of the AI's colonies. Since "Palace" is a system ability, the AI builds only one per system.

However, it means changing AI files, not something I want to mess with unless Path tells me to.

Is anyone else playing a solitaire game? If so, could you peek in on your Ai races and see if the problem I have described (the AI not building spaceports) is a real problem?

The Centauri are a good one to check if you have them in your game. The EA is not - they are natural merchants (but if you have them as an AI player, please confirm that they have no homeworld hub).

[pathfinder]

Grumbler: No need for my permission. *shrug* me heading off to get lost in Star Wars Galaxies when I get my copy.

[Timstone]

Yehaa, I got my copy of B5 Season 2 today!! I had it send up here. At a small fee I deemed it worth it. The bad thing is I have to watch it on my laptop. A well, with my GF next to me it's all good and well. Today no updates on 2.0.
About the building times: I look into that when the first Version is completed. After some testing I'll decide what to change about them.

Till the next time! See ya!

Edit: Ehh for the second time, would someone please upload his or her settings.txt (B5gold) for me?!

[ June 24, 2003, 10:02: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[pathfinder]

Sorry Timstone, my PC with B5 on it fried this AM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Yikes, scifi mod computers are dropping like flies!

[Fyron]

Andres is next! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[pathfinder]

Hopefully it is only the memory that fried but one never knows...

[Timstone]

Hmm... scary times these are. I better make a full backup of everything on it. Thanks for the warning...
But I still need the settings.txt.

[Timstone]

Thanks AGoetz for the settings.txt.

[grumbler]

Sorry, Tim I couldn't find the original settings.txt and couldn't remember which changes I made two weeks ago (my notes are around here somewhere) but I should have let you know.

Still working on a an upgrade to the engines system and just started to pick through the Minbari weapons options. I am starting with Minbari since they seem to work pretty well right now but need the advanced stuff if they are to keep up.

BTW, I'm on turn 200 of a game (playing Minbari) with the corrected spaceports AI files and am in 7th place! I don't think I have ever stayed down so far for so long. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 26, 2003, 17:12: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Timstone]

It's alright. Hope that new system of yours works out (starting buildings and so on), coz the buildings the AI in the beginning gets were rightout strange. Ah well, if it works fine, I'll implement it in the 2.0 Version.

[Timstone]

Joehoe, anybody home?! Please opload the settings.txt, it's only a small file, won't take much time and would make me very very happy. Come on guys upload it for me.
*Almost breaks in tears*

[grumbler]

I have kinda reached a dead end with the engine mods, barring the possibility that people will accept a single massive (like 2000kt massive! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ) engine module for the Planet Killers that gives something like a 10-speed bonus.

The problem, as we all know by now, is the 255 limit to engines. Now, without bonus speeds, the planet killers can only move at speed 3, even if they devote 100% of their space to engines!

Unfortunately, as we know from "A Call to Arms" fleets were not limited by the speed of their planet-killers.

Now, since the speed of planet-killers will be determined almost exclusively by the bonus movement assigned by their engines, it seems that the only way to make them work is with a huge bonus, with a correspondingly huge component that provides the bonus (else other ships will use the component and get the bonus "unfairly.")

The system I will propose will take care of ships through 1250k tons very nicely, and through 2000kt with a slight loss of top speed. But the 5000kt ships simply throw all the rules out the window.

So, can people live with such a component? PF, can we get the AI to use it?

[Fyron]

Why not just lower the engines per move of planet killers?

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Why not just lower the engines per move of planet killers?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm Then we get into the whole issue of whether or not we are trying to maintain consistency.

In order for 5000kt ships to move at anything like normal speeds, they would have to massively violate the pseudo-Newtonian principals of the game.

Even better would be to have the engines per move of ALL ships be 1 per 100kt, rather than 1 per 50kt.

However, that would be a massive rewrite of the system that exists, and I already think I am stepping on toes with what i propose.

That is why I suggest that v2.0 use the 100kt per ton (eliminating the x50 ton vehicle sizes, unfortunately, but also allowing more variation at the top end in exchange)), but that does not solve the problem with v1.0 (or whatever Version we are on right now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) which can only be solved through some workarounds.

There are a lot of reasons why more variation should occur at the low end of the ship spectrum, and that is where the x50kt ships are concentrated. For one thing, the costs to build up ship size tech are proportional, right now, to the progression of research points. If v2.0 goes with the x100 model, this will be a tough issue to deal with.

So, bottom line, we need to account for the 5000kt ships in a way that is considtent with the rest of the ships, or else they become disproportionately effective. The only way I see of to deal with this is through some "gawdawful" component that gives a huge movement bounus.

[grumbler]

And before I get too far into my weapons system analysis, I want to get a feel for how many people really want the EA to be "uniquely interesting" by having so many weapons choices.

Right now, I guess about half of the unique weapons are EA-specific. Since the canon revolves around the EA, I guess this is natural as a starting point.

However, I personally find the choices bewildering and the optimal mix hard to calculate. If we are not to end up with unmanageable file sizes, I think we need to rethink having such things as anti-missile-missiles and anti-fighter missiles that do much the same job (let alone all the array of PD weapons) so we can free slots for things like advanced Minbari weapons ('cause right now about half the Minbari weapons research programs are dead ends).

Thoughts?

[Fyron]

So, bottom line, we need to account for the 5000kt ships in a way that is considtent with the rest of the ships, or else they become disproportionately effective. The only way I see of to deal with this is through some "gawdawful" component that gives a huge movement bounus. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lowering the big ship's engines per move has the same effect, and eliminates the need for a special component (which violates the QNP principles equally to the lowering of engines per move anyways).

[pathfinder]

Lost my cookies yesterday and it appears I have lost my @hotmail e-mail address. SOOOooooo, looks like my PBW need to go to harryb1@comcast.net instead.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by grumbler:
And before I get too far into my weapons system analysis, I want to get a feel for how many people really want the EA to be "uniquely interesting" by having so many weapons choices.

Right now, I guess about half of the unique weapons are EA-specific. Since the canon revolves around the EA, I guess this is natural as a starting point.

However, I personally find the choices bewildering and the optimal mix hard to calculate. If we are not to end up with unmanageable file sizes, I think we need to rethink having such things as anti-missile-missiles and anti-fighter missiles that do much the same job (let alone all the array of PD weapons) so we can free slots for things like advanced Minbari weapons ('cause right now about half the Minbari weapons research programs are dead ends).

Thoughts?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why on earth would you need to "free slots" ??
The components.txt will be loaded quickly and correctly even if it is upwards of 7 megs in size!
(I made such a file as a P&N extension using my tech gridder - it works great!)

[Fyron]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
Lost my cookies yesterday and it appears I have lost my @hotmail e-mail address. SOOOooooo, looks like my PBW need to go to harryb1@comcast.net instead.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Then you need to change that on the PBW site. The turn emails are automatically generated by the PBW server; I have nothing to do with them.

Grumbler, having more separate anti-fighter and anti-missile missiles is a good thing because it means that there are more choices to have to make; do you want to be strongly anti-fighter or strongly anti-missile, or a more balanced approach? That, and file size hardly matters at all except for downloads, but those are not very often, so a few extra KBs of d/l aren't much of a problem.

[ June 28, 2003, 17:08: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Lowering the big ship's engines per move has the same effect, and eliminates the need for a special component (which violates the QNP principles equally to the lowering of engines per move anyways).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But if you lower the engines per move of the Planet Killer, how can you justify not lowering it for the rest of the ships? QNP hold that mass is the key, and if you say the mass of the Planet Killer is unique, how do you justify that?

The special component would weigh the same for "effective thrust" as the engines it replaces. It is just a way of getting around the 255 engines limit. In wieght cost per effective thrust it is a push.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Grumbler, having more separate anti-fighter and anti-missile missiles is a good thing because it means that there are more choices to have to make; do you want to be strongly anti-fighter or strongly anti-missile, or a more balanced approach? That, and file size hardly matters at all except for downloads, but those are not very often, so a few extra KBs of d/l aren't much of a problem.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I guess that is my question: do people want to have all of these "choices"? Personally, I find them far too bewildering for the minimal gain received.

The anti-fighter missile shoots down Ftr\Sat\Seekers\Drone, and the AMM does not shoot down anything but seekers. The AMM is a PD weapons and the AFM a seeker, but they have the same range and damage per hull space taken. Personally, I don't think the decision which to use is very much "fun."

It is true that there is no special size limit on the components file per se, but incrasing the size of it makes it more difficult to work through it and figure out what you are supposed to be building towards.

However, if people are happy with the current system, I can always just make the recommended changes to Tim for his Version 2.0, and the components guru can take what he wants from that for the 1.x Version currently underway.

[Fyron]

Well I have not looked at all of the weapons specifically. If that is the case, then the weapons need to be changed to have a choice. An anti-fighter missile should target only fighters. Either eliminated generic PDC-type weapons or making them weaker than specialized ones is a good idea in principle, it just appears to have been botched in this case.

[pathfinder]

IF: I don't remember what that password/userid is....

[grumbler]

I have finished testing my engines mod (less the mega-component idea I am still working on) and the results can be found at 1057417986.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1057417986.zip)

The readme explains the changes. No changes yet to ancient engines (since the AI seems to use them just fine) or fighter engines.

Is anyone interested in a QNP mod for fighters? I have one that still is in testing, but can finish it if there is interest.

[grumbler]

The new AI facilities construction file is at 1057419090.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1057419090.zip).

The readme explains the changes. This seems to work, but Pathfinder is better at finding the flaws than I am, and he hasn't seen or "blessed" these changes.

[Suicide Junkie]

Why the bonus movement for AM and grav drives?
You've already got more thrust coming out of them, so adding bonus movement dosen't help with the movement limits and disrupts the QNP physics.

I would also argue that the reactor cost balance could be pushed even farther. 25% minerals and 75% rads, say.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Why the bonus movement for AM and grav drives?
You've already got more thrust coming out of them, so adding bonus movement dosen't help with the movement limits and disrupts the QNP physics.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The idea I had was to balance out the drives so that the "fleet speed" of a human player using 40% of the ship's tonnage on engines was as follows:
Fission: 4
Fusin: 6
A-M: 9
Grav: 12

I.e. roughly a 50% boost with each power tech. In order to do that without getting into the 254 limit for the bigger ships, I had to use some bonus MP. Right now the 254 limit is reached at Fission and fusion only at the 5000kt shop level, at 2000kt (slight impact only) for AM, and 1500kt for Grav.

In other words, it was a balancing game. It actually helps the AI a bit, as the AI tends to design slower ships, and thus the high tech engines with bonus movement allows them to pack more weapons. Didn't want to upset the balance with the ancients, though, so I left them alone.

I would also argue that the reactor cost balance could be pushed even farther. 25% minerals and 75% rads, say. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, but didn't want to push TOO far! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Timstone]

G'day mates!

Say, I have arrived in the final stages of testing the basic setup of the game (THE moment to bring in some final changes). After this stage I will build some races and bring out a test Version of 2.0.
I begun my testing with a game against a few computers and high tech (i.e. all tech). I took a look at my homeplanet. EEK! It was terrible! Downright scary I tell you! All my Mining Colonies were replaced by Aggressive Mining Colonies! So I had no %'tages left in Minerals, Organics and Rads. My whole planet was stripmined in the first round (looked like Narn Homeworld, hehe...). The horror! So, how do I solve this?

Grumbler: Cool numbercrunching mister! Great job, I certainly include your AI_Facilities Construction file, but I don't really know about the thrust modifications. To be honest, I don't really know what to do with it. You're the first one to bring it up and quite frankly I want to hear the oppinions of other people too. Anyway, great job!

Edit: SJ: Could you make an armor especially for the Ancients? They have very good armor in the board game but not in the game. So, would you like to do this?

[ July 05, 2003, 21:24: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Fyron]

The HW facilities will be as follows:
1) The Last Spaceport facility in the file that is available with starting tech.
2) The Last SY facility in the file that is available with starting tech.
3) The Last Resupply facility that is the file that is available with starting tech.
4) One facility that is the highest producer of Organics.
5) One facility that is the highest producer of Radioactives.
6) One facility that is the highest producer of Minerals.
7) One facility that is the highest producer of Research.
8) Repeast 6 & 7 until the planet is filled.

Position in the file and tech reqs (other than if it is available) are irrelevant for the resource/research facilities.

So, if you start off with Mining Colonies and Aggressive Mining Colonies available, then the Aggressive ones will be picked because they produce more resources.

[Timstone]

Ah, yes, now I see. Thanks IF.

Ehh... to repeat my question to SJ (see dit Last question): Would you like to make an armor especially for the Ancients (maybe seperate armor for the organics based, the telepathic based and the gravitic based races)?

[grumbler]

Timstone: yep, I noted that Homeworld bug for agressive mines a few days ago, while I think you were off-line. Kinda scary, huh? Just makes you want to be even more careful when "fiddling" with stuff.

Another thought for Version 2.0: it strikes me as redundent that we have light, medium, heavy, and mega Versions for a lot of weapons, and then regular, large, heavy, and massive ship mounts. It seems to me that we could have a basic Version of the weapon and then make the costs, size, damage and range vary by mount.

This would also make it easier to create race-specific "better" Versions of various weapons, as there would be no need to create 40 weapons profiles - just ten.

This would also get rid of much of the seperate different types of weapons for each race and "general" that need be researched, if that was a goal of yours.

Something to think on.

Also, along those same lines, I was thinking about increasing the differentiation between the sizes of ships, so that the LC isn't just a larger Version of the DD, but a slightly different animal. If, for instance, you limited DDs and smaller to "light" weapons mounts, they would have shorter ranges (since in my model weapons mounts increase range as well as damage etc) and thus wouldn't be worth building UNLESS you also gave them (in addition to the defensive bonus they now get) some inherent combat speed bonus. Larger numbers of smaller, cheaper vessels would then be able to get close to their larger opponents faster, and this would make them worth buying.

Thoughts?

[Timstone]

About the weapon mounts: Please explain. I've been drinking heavily when typing this (and fiddling with my GF (she made me type this btw), so I'm not too clear anymore. Please elaborate about the concepts you were typing about.

About shipsizes: The whole purpose of this new Version of the mod is that it will be finished when StarFury arrives. I hated the concept of an eternal mod (eternaly in development), so I began work on this Version. I won't incorporate it into the first Version of 2.0, but maybe in later Versions (when you've fully developed the concept http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ). Okay?

Oh man, I go to bed now, this girl is killing me, so is the booze... G'dnite Everyone, see you tommorrow... or not... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Timstone]

Grumbler: I looked through your AI Facilities Construction File, but I haven't got a Trading Port in 2.0. I checked the older Version (which I used as a basis for 2.0, but there isn't a Trading Port in that either. Is this facility an invention of yours or... also please explain.

[Timstone]

Okay, this sucks BIG TIME!!!

When I was searching for the Trading Port Grumbler mentioned, I discovered I was using Version 1.49.30 instead of 1.49.33. This means I have to implement A LOT of thingies again to make it right. Sugh, the first big setback in the history of 2.0. A well, it's only the first setback. There will be more, I hope they won't be as big as this one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Grumbler: I looked through your AI Facilities Construction File, but I haven't got a Trading Port in 2.0. I checked the older Version (which I used as a basis for 2.0, but there isn't a Trading Port in that either. Is this facility an invention of yours or... also please explain.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Trading Port is the first facility in the Facility.txt file Da path sent out:
Name := Trading Port I
Description :=
Facility Group := Miscellaneous
Facility Family := 1102
Roman Numeral := 2
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 261
Cost Minerals := 9050
Cost Organics := 2263
Cost Radioactives := 1508
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Industry
Tech Level Req 1 := 0
Tech Area Req 2 := B5 Standard Race
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Number of Abilities := 10
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 1000 shield points
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 25
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Spaceport
Ability 5 Descr := Provides a small space port and trading post for the planet.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 1
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Provides 500 extra cargo spaces.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 500
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 7 Descr := Can store 1000 minerals for the Empire.
Ability 7 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 8 Descr := Can store 1000 organics for the Empire.
Ability 8 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 8 Val 2 := 0
Ability 9 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 9 Descr := Can store 1000 radioactives for the Empire.
Ability 9 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 9 Val 2 := 0
Ability 10 Type := Scanner Jammer
Ability 10 Descr :=
Ability 10 Val 1 := 1
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0

Note that Ability 10 "SJ" will be "Palace" in the mod Version, as then only one will be built per system.

This is necessary for the construction of space ports in a system, as currently the AI uses the most advanced SP-capable facility when that ability is called for, and that is the Homeworld Hub (which takes 4.2x10^3 years, or sumpin, for a newly colonied planet).

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Okay, this sucks BIG TIME!!!

When I was searching for the Trading Port Grumbler mentioned, I discovered I was using Version 1.49.30 instead of 1.49.33. This means I have to implement A LOT of thingies again to make it right. Sugh, the first big setback in the history of 2.0. A well, it's only the first setback. There will be more, I hope they won't be as big as this one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Boy, that sucks even bigger-time than you thought, as all my stuff is Gold Version (1.84, I think it is up to now). I cannot guarantee any compatability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Still, analysis is analysis, and the biggest headache remaining is the components.txt file, and that is not Version-specific.

[ July 07, 2003, 01:15: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[grumbler]

Another kinda random thought: I had complained that the Vorlons and Shadows were too powerful, but after playing another couple of 300+ turn games, I have decided that y'all were right and I was wrong! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

In the latest game, as the Centauri, I fought a losing war along with my allies the Minbari against the Vorlons. Each of us lost about three systems (mine were just wiped out, but the Minbari system closest to the Vorlons was actually invaded and captured).

Then the Vorlons left us alone except for intel attacks. It forced me to invest heavily in intel facilities, but that is all to the good. After leaving a big buffer zone around the Vorlons (who waged war on every single species they encountered, BTW, including a takeover of the Gaim), I was able to procede with my plans.

In short, it felt about right.

In the other game, as the Minbari, I just watched as the Vorlons smoked first the Centauri, then the Narn, systems within four systems of the Vorlon Homeworld. Of course, they DoW'ed me as soon as they encountered me, but I left them alone and they didn't bother me (much - intel attacks again, but much less strong).

Again, it felt about right. It was kinda fun sending in scouts who got to watch my allies get toasted and then run for home (only to come back later and find empty systems).

Planet killers seem like a waste of time for a race that has Heavy Lightning Guns, though! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I still like the idea of Line of Sight (20-range) telepath attacks rather than the short-ranged ones in the game as is, but that is another story, for another day, as Emperor londo liked to say.

[Fyron]

Still, analysis is analysis, and the biggest headache remaining is the components.txt file, and that is not Version-specific.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes it is. You have to add Drone on a lot of vehicle and targeting type fields in Components.txt for Gold.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Yes it is. You have to add Drone on a lot of vehicle and targeting type fields in Components.txt for Gold.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True, but that's just a simple search and replace operation. Takes but minutes. It's not like the AI files which have multiple changes (added lines) to each file.

I would be better for Tim's Version to be Gold, of course, but then the fact that it isn't leaves room for my Gold mod Version 2.0! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Timstone]

Well because I wanted to eliminate the hopelessly chaotic stuff in the components.txt (one of the main reasons to begin work on 2.0), I went about differently. But that will be seen in 2.0 when it is ready maybe you'll like it, maybe not. Time will tell.
Work is proceding again in good order, the setback of yesterday is almost completely repaired. But some of the tings new in .33 (in relation to .30) are easily included in 2.0.
Yes, also the Trading Port was in .33, haha. Thanks anyway Grumbler.

[Timstone]

Grumbler: My Version is Gold. But I used the non gold Version as a basis for it all. I just forgot to install the latset (the least old) Version of it.

Another question for you. I have read through your AI Facilities Construction File. I see you haven't used the COlony Hub anywhere. So there is actually noi point in keeping it in the mod now is there. I see it as an "quick" to build Version of the Homeworld Hub.
The way I see it, is that there must be a main structure in the colony and seconday buildings to define the function of a colony. A few examples (these examples are only for the Standard races):

Homeworld
Main: Homeworld Hub
Secondary: anything

Manufacturing Colony
Main: Manufacturing Colony
Secondary: Depot, Resource Extraction

Military Installation
Main: Military Outpost (or Adv. Military outpost)
Secondary: Listening Post

Mining/Farming Colony
Main: Trading Port (or Colony Hub)
Secondary: Resource Extraction

Intel Compound
Main: Military Outpost (or Adv. Military outpost)
Secondary: Intelligence buildings

Research Campus
Main: Trading Port (or Colony Hub)
Secondary: Research buildings

Construction Yard
Main: Ship Yard
Secondary: Depot, Resource Extraction

In other words, I want to have each building a specific task in the colony. I'm worried that if that isn't done a lot of buildings go unused. Furthermore, how is the Homeworld (very, very, very important planet coz of the slow construction of new colonies) put together? Does it contain a Homeworld Hub or a Trading Post as main building? If the Trading Post is the main building, shouldn't you give the Homeworld Hub the "palace" insignia?
Only the main buildings get the Space Yard option (the Space Yard facility the best of course).

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Another question for you. I have read through your AI Facilities Construction File. I see you haven't used the COlony Hub anywhere. So there is actually noi point in keeping it in the mod now is there. I see it as an "quick" to build Version of the Homeworld Hub.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">True. The Colony Hub isn't used right now by the AI (but could be used by human players, though I never do). Frankly, it is a bit of "do everything that the colony already does, but at great cost." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The way I see it, is that there must be a main structure in the colony and seconday buildings to define the function of a colony. A few examples (these examples are only for the Standard races):

[examples snipped]

In other words, I want to have each building a specific task in the colony. I'm worried that if that isn't done a lot of buildings go unused. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, this is true for the human player, but for the AI the plan is a bit different: the Ai needs to be programmed to build the next building which is "most efficient."

As way to get around this is to make the AI build a larger number of different colonies, like "Huge World Agricultural Colony," "Small World Agricultural Colony," "Medium World Research Colony" and the like from the _AI_Planet_Types file and then make a custom Faciliyies build list for each type. I think I could do this if that's the route you want to take. It would make the AI a lot "smarter" in terms of the colonies it ends up with.

Furthermore, how is the Homeworld (very, very, very important planet coz of the slow construction of new colonies) put together? Does it contain a Homeworld Hub or a Trading Post as main building? If the Trading Post is the main building, shouldn't you give the Homeworld Hub the "palace" insignia?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Homeworld as designed right now gets filled by the setup process, so the Facilities list in the AI_Contruction_Facilities file seems a bit redundent. There is no need for the Trading Port on the homeworld because the HH already has a spaceport (and note, importantly, that Natural Merchants do not get a homeworld hub!)

You cannot put "palace" on the HH because then the IA would try to build HHs first thing on the first planet of every system, and so the system would have no spaceport for many many years. The palace ability should be left to the trading ports only. The downside to this is that the first colony in the home system will build a trading port needlessly in order to get the palace ability, but this is something we can live with, I think.

[Timstone]

Ah yes, now I see.
So, the homeworld "loses" one building spot for the sake of the Trading Port. And needlessly creates 2 buildings with the Spaceport ability. Well, that's certainly something we can all live with.
Okay, here's what I'll do. I delete the Colony Hub (it's useless with the Trading Port around) and I'll incorporate the Trading Port.
But, I'm going to change the main buildings to the roles I thought out for them in my Last post.

Great work Grumbler. This is much more productive than I thought. This really helping me a lot.
I was so arrogant and fed up with the state of the B5Mod that I thought I could make the next Version of The Mod on my own. I would do it in a really short time. Yeah, sure... not. I've come a long way without help from people (I wanted it that way), but now the release of the first testVersion is drawing nearer and nearer I see it is a hell of a job to set up and do. Thanks again evenryone for their help, support, recomendations and requests.

Edit01:
Oops, alright, I jumped the gun too soon with my thanks to Grumbler, hehehe...
I entered the whole thing (Palace to Trading Port), but it seems that Gold doesn't know that term. Now what?

Edit02: Sigh, sometimes it really shows when I've been too long behind my computer (read: laptop). I've been doing 3D programming (for work) and analysing structures for about 12 hours now. I complained about the Palace thingie. Well, I've corrected it and now SE4: Gold eats it. Hope it works. I'll report back tommorrow. Today I'm turning in very early. Tommorrow I see my GF again. Ah, sweet dreams...

P.S. Sorry about the mess in this message.

[ July 07, 2003, 18:15: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Timstone]

Okay, I couldn't resist to work on The Mod again after dinner.
I've been fiddling with those facilities, but I can't make them work properly. The Palace "tag" isn't working. I've tried every possible combination to make it work.

grumbler: Would you like to think this idea over? I can't seem to make it work on my computer.

everyone: I want the computer to place a Homeworld Hub on every homeworld I start with (1, 3, 5 or 10) and on every colony the AI must begin building a Trading post first (not a Homeworld Hub). What the heck should I do to make this system work?! Grumbler worked out a possible system, but I doens't work at my computer (and yes I followed his instructions to the letter).

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Okay, I couldn't resist to work on The Mod again after dinner.
I've been fiddling with those facilities, but I can't make them work properly. The Palace "tag" isn't working. I've tried every possible combination to make it work.

grumbler: Would you like to think this idea over? I can't seem to make it work on my computer.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Look in your Abilities.txt file and make sure "Palace" is listed. It should be right after Spaceport. If it isn't there, paste in

Palace
Value1 =
Value2 =

and try it again. It works just great in my setup. What error message are you getting? Do all the AIs have the correct [Racename]_AI_Construction_facility.txt file? Try moving all the race-specific [Racename]_AI_Construction_facility.txt file out of their folders under "pictures/races/[racename] into a temporary folder, and make sure the default_AI_Construction_facility.txt file (in the AI folder) is the correct one, and see if that works.

I'd need more data to troubleshoot beyond that.

everyone: I want the computer to place a Homeworld Hub on every homeworld I start with (1, 3, 5 or 10) and on every colony the AI must begin building a Trading post first (not a Homeworld Hub). What the heck should I do to make this system work?! Grumbler worked out a possible system, but I doens't work at my computer (and yes I followed his instructions to the letter). <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Homeworld bit will work so long as it is either a spaceport or a refuelling station or both, as the AI will place the best facilities that give each of those capabilities. If it has both, then no seperate facility is needed to provide them.

[ July 07, 2003, 23:19: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Abilities.txt is not read by the game...
It is merely a reference file for modders, like the history and readme.txt files.

[Timstone]

Ah yes, a good night it was. It's amazing how refresshing a bit of sleep can be.

Okay, I'll post here waht I've done.

Name := Homeworld Hub I
Description :=
Facility Group := Hub
Facility Family := 1
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 68
Cost Minerals := 95355
Cost Organics := 27740
Cost Radioactives := 27270
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 20
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 5000 points of shielding for the planet during combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 2 Descr := Mines 1000 minerals each turn.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 3 Descr := Extracts 500 radioactives each turn.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 500
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 4 Descr := Colony generates 500 organics per turn.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 500
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 5 Descr := Generates 500 research points each turn.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 500
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 6 Descr := Generates 500 intelligence points each turn.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 500
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Spaceport
Ability 7 Descr := Acts as a spaceport for this system.
Ability 7 Val 1 := 0
Ability 7 Val 2 := 0
Ability 8 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 8 Descr := Provides 5000 extra cargo spaces.
Ability 8 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 8 Val 2 := 0
Ability 9 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 9 Descr := Can store 50000 minerals for the Empire.
Ability 9 Val 1 := 50000
Ability 9 Val 2 := 0
Ability 10 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 10 Descr := Can store 50000 organics for the Empire.
Ability 10 Val 1 := 50000
Ability 10 Val 2 := 0
Ability 11 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 11 Descr := Can store 50000 radioactives for the Empire.
Ability 11 Val 1 := 50000
Ability 11 Val 2 := 0
Ability 12 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 12 Descr := Can generate unlimited supplies each turn for ships.
Ability 12 Val 1 := 0
Ability 12 Val 2 := 0
Ability 13 Type := Space Yard
Ability 13 Descr := Can construct with 1000 minerals per turn.
Ability 13 Val 1 := 1
Ability 13 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 14 Type := Space Yard
Ability 14 Descr := Can construct with 1000 organics per turn.
Ability 14 Val 1 := 2
Ability 14 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 15 Type := Space Yard
Ability 15 Descr := Can construct with 1000 radioactives per turn.
Ability 15 Val 1 := 3
Ability 15 Val 2 := 1000
Ability 16 Type := Change Population Happiness - System
Ability 16 Descr := The presense of the Homeworld provides the system with a bonus to their happiness.
Ability 16 Val 1 := 2
Ability 16 Val 2 := 0
Ability 17 Type := System Point Generation Modifier - Research
Ability 17 Descr := Increase all research in a system by 10% (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 17 Val 1 := 10
Ability 17 Val 2 := 0
Ability 18 Type := Reduced Maintenance Cost - System
Ability 18 Descr := Reduces all vehicle maintenance costs in the system by 15% (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 18 Val 1 := 15
Ability 18 Val 2 := 0
Ability 19 Type := Change Bad Event Chance - System
Ability 19 Descr := Decreases the chance of any bad events in this system (only 1 facility per system effective).
Ability 19 Val 1 := -30
Ability 19 Val 2 := 0
Ability 20 Type := Combat Modifier - System
Ability 20 Descr := When fighting to defend their homewworld system, ships receive a 20% Combat bonus.
Ability 20 Val 1 := 20
Ability 20 Val 2 := 0

Name := Trading Port I
Description :=
Facility Group := Hub
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 2
Cost Minerals := 9050
Cost Organics := 1860
Cost Radioactives := 2550
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 1000 points of shielding for the planet during combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Spaceport
Ability 2 Descr := Acts as a spaceport for this system.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Palace
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 1
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

I want the starting planets (the planets you get in the beginning) to have 1 Homeworld Hub. And the rest of the planets (the planets you colonize) to start with a Trading Port. That's all. Grumbler, you say you have it working on your computer, but mine is stubborn as Hell. Any idea's?

[Timstone]

I saw I had an oportunity to post message number 3300, so I just did it! Yeah!! I got post 3300!! Wohoo! What a sensation!

[grumbler]

Tim,

A couple of thoughts. If you give the homeworld hub a space yard ability, I think that means you won't get the regular shipyard in the initial build, and I know it means that you cannot build the shipyard later, as there is a limit of one space yard per planet.

Also, one of the things I liked in another mod was the idea of something like the Homeworld hubs, only perhaps "suburbs" that had the same values but not the one-time abilities, and cost a bit less. Then, you could slowly convert your homeworld into a more "urban" place by replacing the resource colonies with "urban" ones.

Also, I think the HH needs to improve planet conditions. The slowly growing races, like the Minbari and Centauri, are really screwed compared to the fast-growing races like the Narn because their populations don't grow at all on an unpleasant planet (and the homeworlds are all unpleasant at the start, I believe). Having the HH make the planet more pleasant over time makes these races much more competitive later in the game, as their homeworlds start to grow back in population and they get the production and generation bonuses.

Re the palace for the Trading port: are you sure the AI_Construction_Facilties is calling for it to be built first (i.e. that you are using my Version)? Have you tried moving the racial AI_C_F files to a temprary folder and putting the AI_C_F I uploaded into the AI folder as Generic_AI_Contruction_Facilities.txt, so that all races use it?

Try that, and allow 50 or so turns to go by so that the AI players have a chance to start a colony in a new system, and see if the AI is building a Trading Port.

I cannot see how this would work for me and not for you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If all else fails, you can just make all races "Natural Merchants" and eliminate the Space Port ability from the game entirely.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
I saw I had an oportunity to post message number 3300, so I just did it! Yeah!! I got post 3300!! Wohoo! What a sensation!<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Even more interestinmg is that the "ever-changing Name Thread" lost a LOT of Posts and is way behind now, not more than a coupla weeks after celebrating their "hard work" in overtaking this thread in length.

I just wonder....

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Abilities.txt is not read by the game...
It is merely a reference file for modders, like the history and readme.txt files.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think I knew that once upon a time... But time steals away bits of info like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Fyron]

and the homeworlds are all unpleasant at the start, I believe <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They are random. They range from unpleasant to optimal.

[Timstone]

Okay, we don't seem to get anything done this way (not too many replies besides Grumbler, way to go Grumbler). So I'll ask the question again in the hopes of getting more replies.

We have 2 facilities with the Spaceport ability (Homeworld Hub (HH) and the Trading Port (TP)). Each starting planet must have a Spaceport, a Supply Depot and a Ship Yard. The HH is the most expensive of the 2, so we want each starting planet to have a HH and each planet you colonize thereafter must start building a TP (otherwise the colony takes ages to be build).
Who has a good idea on how to do this?! For the abilities of the HH and the TP, see a few Messages down.

Maybe this question will help too.
Based on what does the computer make the decisions to put which building on your starting planets?

I really hope we get some more replies on these 2 questions. Maybe even a good sollution, would be great.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
They are random. They range from unpleasant to optimal.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you sure that is true when each race starts with one planet? I have never seen anything but unpleasant on one-planet starts, even when looking through the Ai races. Haven't checked enough to be positive, but in the game I am currently in, of 15 races, 15 have unpleasant homeworlds!

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
We have 2 facilities with the Spaceport ability (Homeworld Hub (HH) and the Trading Port (TP)). Each starting planet must have a Spaceport, a Supply Depot and a Ship Yard. The HH is the most expensive of the 2, so we want each starting planet to have a HH and each planet you colonize thereafter must start building a TP (otherwise the colony takes ages to be build).
Who has a good idea on how to do this?! For the abilities of the HH and the TP, see a few Messages down.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you really want every planet to build a TP? If so, then you should give it construction abilities... in which case you have the manufacturing facility! Maybe the key here is to make the MF cheaper and then have each world build that first, obviating the need to build TPs at all. This might be a bit much for smaller domed worlds, though. They take forever to build anything (because even their max pop is so small it has only a few hundred build points at best)and can only build a few facilities.

Maybe this question will help too.
Based on what does the computer make the decisions to put which building on your starting planets?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I can answer this. The AI_Construction_Facilities lists all the facilities to build, in order. Facilities are identified by abilities rather than name because that way ancient and nomad races build the right facilties using the same file, and because that way the AI will always build the most advanced facility available with that ability. System-wide facilties already built or building within the system are ignored, as are all facilities that require tech you don't have.

The AI_C_F files tells the AI how many facilities to build in each "step" before moving to the next step. When the planet is full, the AI stops. You will note that the Last entry is always "build 100 of this type" which just means finish filling out the planet.

I am looking to see if the AI will acccept more colony types than those listed. It doesn't look like it, though. Default_AI_Planet_Types.txt seems to preclude any but the existing nine colony types. If there CAN be more than nine, then we can make specialized building lists for planet sizes, and the larger planets can start on shipyards earlier (which is more efficient).

[Timstone]

I've messed around with the facilities again and I now got the computer so far to build a Trading Port, a Ship Yard and a Homeworld Hub on my homeplanets. I haven't got around to testing yet, but I will. The setup works with the low and medium tech setups. It cost me afternoon, but it's well worth it.

Grumbler, thanks again for the endless enthusiasm and the boundless energy.

Hmm... it seems to me this thread is losing members. Where are it's core-members? Hope it's the holidays. I sure miss them. Hope I'm not to blame for this...

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Hmm... it seems to me this thread is losing members. Where are it's core-members? Hope it's the holidays. I sure miss them. Hope I'm not to blame for this...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, I think everyone, including me, has walked away from this for a while. They'll be back, I think, and I think it is very useful to rehash some of the thoughts behind the choices made.

I'm almost done with my Minbari weapons analysis. I'm still trying to work out a few measures of effectiveness. Once that's done, the others should be a lot easier.

[Timstone]

Grumbler: I don't want to undo your work, but... I've tried to eradicate the chaos in the weapons for each race. In doing so, I proposed a standard "loadout" for each race. Example:
2 tiny weapon
1 light weapons
2 medium weapons
4 heavy weapons
etc.

Because I got absolutely no response on this (and I've posted it quite some times), I let it go and saved the trouble for later. Now I've arrived at the stage in The Mod to implement the various races (thus their weapons). Now I face the same trouble again. Val based everything more or less on the Babylon 5 Wars (2nd edition) books. I bought a good portion of those books (not yet all of it is in my possession) to use for The Mod (and to collect). I decided to implement The Ancients first (I already had plans for them) and later on one race at a time. BUT, I haven't got a clue in what to use as a standard for the standard races. I recon they all must have the same amount of weapons to be equally fun to play. Not the huge imbalance of the current Version (EA with 500 weapons and most races only 5 weapons). So, it's really cool of you to analyse the Minbari, but do you have a good standard "loadout" for this race and the other races?
Hope you can help on this one.
Today, I will begin implementing the first of The Ancients (haha... the first was Lorien, haha... sorry B5 joke).
I'll be Online for the rest of the day, so any questions, recommendations will be read. Hope you can help.

[grumbler]

Tim,

What I am doing is trying to create a metric by which to evaluate weapons aaginst one another (within type) so that cost (in minerals and tonnage) can be adjusted so that the weapons are roughly equal in cost-benefit. For instance, right now the Minbari have 2 Medium weapons, the Fussion Cannon and the Molecular Disrupter. The FC fires more often (once per turn vice once per four turns) but is shorter-ranged, takes more space, and inflicts less damage. However, it hits all but seekers and the MD hits only ships. It is becoming clear from my analysis that it is better to shoot for heavy damage less frequently than for less damage more frequently, but the exact metric is not yet clear.

In the case of heavy weapons, the Neutron Laser, the Antimatter Converter, and the Molecular Pulsar, it is a bit clearer. The AC is only slightly lighter than the NL, has the same reload rate (4 turns) and has nowhere near the range. There seems to be no reason whatever to build this weapon, as there is a better one that does the same thing. Howver, the MP can hit more than just ships, and so even if you have good NLs you need the MP as a secondary weapon.

My idea on ship loadouts has been based on the "weapons mount" idea. In essence, everything up to the Destroyer would use light mounts, and there would be increasingly powerful mounts for the groupings of:
DD, HD, and CLs would use standard mounts,
C, HC, and BC would use cruiser mounts,
BB, DN, HDN would use Battleship mounts
BS, HBS would use baseship mounts.

In my scheme, each ship would mount two primary weapons. The differences between the ships in the groupings would be that the later ships would incorporate more short range weapons and armor. Thus, you might find
Minbari DD with 2 Molecular Pulsars
Minbari HDD with 2 MPs and a PD weapon
Minbari CL with 2 MPs, a PD weapon, and more armor
Minbari C with 2 MPs (in a heavier mount)
Minbari HC with 2 MPs (in a heavier mount)and a PD weapon
Minbari BC with 2 MPs (in a heavier mount), a PD weapon, and more armor
etc.

Does this make sense?

[grumbler]

AGoetz,
In general, do you find it better to equip ships with Gaim-specific weapons, or the genral ones? For instance, I find that race-specific PD weapons are generally less good than the old PDF Particle Beam. Do you find the same?

[Timstone]

Grumbler: Great work on the Minbari and the early beginnings to a universal formulae for catagorising weapons.
Let me warn you, it's something like finding the Unification Theory. It's almost unreachable. I think we'd be far better off if we look at the books and draw our conclusion from the info therein. Let's make a deal here. I plan to release races when I've finished them. Why don't I take care of the various races and you go work on the mounts. I'm not ordering anyone, it's only a proposition.
Tell me what you think of it.
Oh Grumbler, I want to mail you something, this is my mail adres, then you can mail me your adres.
kaptein-aso@planet.nl
Thanks!

[Fyron]

Originally posted by grumbler:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
They are random. They range from unpleasant to optimal.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Are you sure that is true when each race starts with one planet? I have never seen anything but unpleasant on one-planet starts, even when looking through the Ai races. Haven't checked enough to be positive, but in the game I am currently in, of 15 races, 15 have unpleasant homeworlds!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have had optimal homeworlds before. I think unpleasant is just more common than other types, so it may be a coincidence. And, I do not think there is any way you can affect HWs like that in a mod.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I have had optimal homeworlds before. I think unpleasant is just more common than other types, so it may be a coincidence. And, I do not think there is any way you can affect HWs like that in a mod.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting. I went and created 4 games, 2 with only one power selected and two witrh the ten basic players pre-selected.

With the 2 games with only one race selected and the rest generated, the distribution was Unpleasent roughly 33% of the time (but always the selected race), Mild roughly 30% of the time, good some 25% of the time, and optimal about 12% of the time (some rounding errors here, I know).

When I picked the ten races to start, only two (10%) got anything but unpleasent planets, and those were just mild. The rest of the races got U-M-G-D in roughly the proportions of 3-3-3-1.

In fact, I got 19 races in one game - I thought 15 was the max!

So, the distribution depends on how you select the races at the start of the game, from this (possibly not statistically significant) quick look.

And the HH work just fine with the Planet - Change Conditions ability. I have been using it in my "personal mod" for many games now. By turn 200 or so, the homeworlds become good to optimal, and by 300 I think they are all optimal.

[grumbler]

Oh, and Tim, I don't have any of the miniatures books, so I am at a bit of a loss as to how to evaluate the weapons according to them, and I will just leave that in your hands. I will finish and report on my Minbari weapons analysis (which is based on combat using the simulator) just for my own sense of completion.

[ July 10, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[AGoetz]

Regarding Racial specific items.
In the current files the Gaim (whom I'm playing hence I'm most familiar with them) have the following :

General Components -
Gaim Life Support (half the size of regular LS)
Gaim Crew Quarters (not actually any different from normal)
Gaim Fighter Cockpit (small and works as cockpit and LS)
Gaim Bulkhead (a low tech, low efficency, hit first armor - all the normal armors have superior absorbation/size ratios, but there's little in there that's hit first)
Gaim Breaching Pod (higher attack value than standard ship capture components)

Weapons -
Light Particle Beam (Tiny - general purpose)
Light Particle Gun (Tiny - general purpose, the Beam is superior)
PDF Scattergun (Light - very short range Point Defence weapon - completely useless against the fighter weapons of many races due to lack of range)
Scattergun (Medium - very short range power shot)
Packet Torpedo (Heavy - the only Gaim missile weapon, Ships only)
Particle Concentrator (Heavy - general purpose, long range, reasonable damage and reload, gives a plus to hit, the primary weapon of any Gaim fleet with the tech. Won't outpower an Ancient or a Minbari beam for beam, but still quite good.)

[AGoetz]

The Gaim PDF Scattergun's lack of range is what kills it - the general PDF weapons greater range makes them the prime choice. Of course the PDF Scattergun can be researched further so it's cost and damage are superior - just the range remains bad.

[Timstone]

AGoetz: I'm afraid you're just going to have to live with that terrible range. I haven't read much about the Gaim yet, but I've looked through their weapons. And indeed the scattergun can be powerfull, it's range is sucky, sucky. And for the sake of truthfulness to the serie, we are copying it exactly, hehe.

[Fyron]

So, the distribution depends on how you select the races at the start of the game, from this (possibly not statistically significant) quick look.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am fairly certain that is not quite true.

And the HH work just fine with the Planet - Change Conditions ability. I have been using it in my "personal mod" for many games now. By turn 200 or so, the homeworlds become good to optimal, and by 300 I think they are all optimal. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That seems a tad pointless to me. Perhaps the ability should be set at 100 so all races get Optimal HWs within a turn or two. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 11, 2003, 08:13: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Timstone]

Shees, just as I though I would be heading home. I got word from my company. I have to go to Italy (the punishment, hehe) to check out some generators for a large factory near Venice. That's just peachy. I work a large portion of the night (observing the generators we've installed, peaking the effeciency) , then I go home (to my hotel) back to bed next to my GF. I sleep about 6 hours a day this way for about 3 months. At daytime I'm only just able to please my GF (going to places, visiting people, doing the adult thingie). I thought it finaly ended and I was able to go home with the biggest price of my life (well, so far). Ah heck, off to Italy. I'll be leaving coming monday. I'll be out of touch with you guys for about 2 weeks, maybe less. After that I hope I can return home. Would be nice.
Let me see, I've been away from home (Holland) for about 2 years and I've been home (during that time) like 3 months. I almost can't remember what it is like to be home. Sigh... for the goo cause, money and sunshine.

Oh btw, I have continued on the mod, but I've been busy on preparations for later work on the mod.

Now I head for bed, maybe I'll checkin later this evening. I'll remain Online though.

[Suicide Junkie]

Suggestions for Ancient race armors?

What kind of abilities should we be giving these guys?

I've got some basic ideas, but could use additional input before I go at it full tilt.

[Timstone]

Walkers of Sigma 957
Extradimensional armor (they've traveled everywhere)

Kirishiac Lords
Gravitic armor (undisputed masters of gravitic technology)

Torvalus
Good question, I really wouldn't know.

Mindriders
Telepatic armor (beings of pure energy and thought)

Triad (all factions)
Very strong conventional armor (they can construct matter out of anything)

Shadows
Organic armor (need I say more?)

Vorlons
organic armor (shees, why do I write this?)

If you have some cool ideas, please do, the more ideas the better. I have all convidence in you. Give yourself a carte blanche.

[ July 11, 2003, 21:36: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Suicide Junkie]

That makes for descriptions, but not effects...

Shadows, would be big on crystalline ability, with a moderate amount of organic regen, I'm sure.

Vorlons, on the other hand, would have big organic regen ability on their stuff, and only moderate crystalline ability.

What kind of effects would those other race's armor have?

[Timstone]

Good question, I didn't thought of that when I posted. I haven't got a clue what to give them.
I'll give it a try here.

Triad
Very strong conventional armor with component repair.

Kirishiac Lords
Gravitic based armor also with component repair.

I wouldn't give them any shield generating things (other than the ADU stuff). I plan to give some races (Abbai, Vorlons, etc.) shields. But what the armors of all the Ancients should have is a scanner jammer ability. I wish I had some good ideas on what to give these guys, but I haven't. Hope you have enough good ideas to fill the slots. Hope you still want to do this. Thanks anyway.

[Suicide Junkie]

I really don't think anybody (from this universe, at least) should have shields.
That's just not B5.

Now, I really have no idea what you mean by gravitic armor.
I assume by conventional, you mean hit-first?

[HEMAN]

Hello everyone,I playing long hours in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , I have a ?.
1)Armor > when in battle my ship gets hit.Other stuff gets destoyed first,like supplys & weapons instead of armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif . Can somebody give me answer as soon as possible?.

2)Shields > Theres weapons that skip shields ,But theres no shield comp in the game,but there is a shield teck in the research list?. Will there be any shield comps in a expanded mode?.

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #242 More is good...All is better.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by HEMAN:
Hello everyone,I playing long hours in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif , I have a ?.
1)Armor > when in battle my ship gets hit.Other stuff gets destoyed first,like supplys & weapons instead of armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif . Can somebody give me answer as soon as possible?.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You see, beams hitting your ship tend to poke little holes in your armor and then slice through the guts. There is still plenty of armor left, and the next shots will probably hit armor somewhere else on the ship before digging in again.

The lighter your armor, the more easily it is pierced. Heavy armor is more likely to absorb the full impact of a weapon, and protect the guts of your ship.

You will also need lots of armor components installed on your ship. Don't just put 1 or 2.
If you are adding "structural supports", you can expect those to be hit Last, though not always. They're good for distracting enemy ships (unless their strategies are perfect, the enemy ships will keep shooting at your disabled hulks in order to vaporize every Last bit, rather than switch targets to a live one)

As you go from light to heavy armor, the hitpoints go down, but they get hit first more often, and thus protect your internals better.

In 1 vs 1 combat, using otherwise equal ships (same guns, engines, etc), you will find that the light-armored ship will have roughly 50% more hitpoints, yet the heavy armored-ship will win 2/3rds to 3/4 of the time.
This is because the heavy armor absorbs more hits, while the light armored ship loses internals faster. The light-armored ship gets its guns damaged, and eventually can't fight back.
If the light ship gets lucky and dosen't lose any guns early on, it will win when the heavy armor runs out of hitpoints.

[ July 13, 2003, 14:52: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Timstone]

IF: Are the images used by the B5 mod also in the Image Mod? If not, do you think that is possible (if the respective owners agree to do so)? It might be a good idea to use it in 2.0 of The Mod.

Edit:
IF: And what about the Quadrant Mod? Could it be implemented into The Mod too? We do have a B5 Standard quadrant. Maybe you could put it in the Quandrant Mod too?

Everyone: A small request. I need a few images redone. It's not much work, but I'm no genius in manipulating images. It regards the following images:
673.bmp, 674.bmp, 675.bmp, 676.bmp and 677.bmp
(those are the images of all the Fusion based reactors and fusion based cells). I need a red/black Version of those images. In other words, all the yellow areas need to be red/black. Not too bright red, but a bit dull. It must look like Hyperspace. I hope one of you guys can do it.

well, in about a hour I'll be off to Italy (together with my GF). Damn shame my GF is with me. Italy has so many beautfull women with long curly black hair. Ah well, I think I can handle it. Besides my GF is also very beautiful. Well, I think she is, my friends think otherwise, but they're idiots. why do you think I hang out with them? Well, see ya all!

[ July 13, 2003, 18:55: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Fyron]

I think all of the images used in B5 Mod are also in the Image Mod. Go check it out for yourself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

FQM can very easily be added to B5 Mod. But, it can only be added in the Gold Version, as FQM is incompatible with non-Gold SE4. All that you have to do is copy over the system related files, as illustrated in the help folder of FQM Deluxe.

[Timstone]

SJ: Gravitic armor. Ehh... you got me there. I really don't have a clue. I kind of hoped you had any cool ideas. Sorry... again. I am going to give some races shields. They're given in the B5 Wars books, so I'm going to do that. They won't be shileds that can stop anything, but very weak shields. I do hope that I can make them leaky (as the armor now is), I hope that is possible. We'll see.
Edit: The shadows have energy dissipators, that may be a good thing to put into the Shadow armor (better ADU??).

HEMAN: In combat everybody is going to get hurt, the only difference between the victor and the loser is that you have ships left and he/she doesn't. Shields will be in the game eventually (if it's able to make them leaky).

Everyone: Tonight I'm heading for Italy. I don't know if I have internet there, so I might be out of touch with the board for some time (2 weeks, maybe less). Don't wreck the whole place while I'm gone, hehe. Till next time amigos!

I hope they have good food up there in Italy... and internet...

[ July 13, 2003, 12:06: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[HEMAN]

THANKS: Timstone & Suicide junky, about armor etc.

About B5 having Shields, Suicide junky, The B5 TV IN THE BEGINGING,When john scheriten was pilot in that Hyperion ship at a asteroide zone,When Scheriten looked back,his capt was killed, blown thru the ships wall thru debri, it showed a hole to space ??.Is that some kind of shield?? Preventing air to escape to space??. What do you think about this players??.

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #229 Latinum Last longer than lust.

[Suicide Junkie]

US Patent #6,528,948

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week09/OG/html/1268-1/US06528948-20030304.html (http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week09/OG/html/1268-1/US06528948-20030304.html)

From the Brookhaven National Lab:
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/2003/bnlpr052803.html

Air molecules are small and light enough to be bounced back by the flying nuclei, but any decent solid or liquid would pass right through and quench the plasma around it.

Cool stuff.
Well, hot actually...

But aside from that, they had artificial gravity, which could easily be adjusted to hold air in. (tilt 90 degrees, crank up the gradient near the wall)
Reverse the polarity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , really crank up the juice, and it would sap a little bit of energy from incoming weapons fire, like the existing components do. IIRC the minbari already have a custom component that does just that.

[ July 14, 2003, 02:39: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

The only race in B5 that should have shields are the 3rd space aliens, as they actually had shields. It took 4-5 hits from a Whitestar to destroy each of their fighters.

In B5, they do have some sort of defensive screens, but they do not approach a shield. They are more akin to ECM than se4 shields.

[Suicide Junkie]

2)Shields > Theres weapons that skip shields ,But theres no shield comp in the game,but there is a shield teck in the research list?. Will there be any shield comps in a expanded mode?. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are shield -effects in the mod though...
The shield-skipping damage types will cause the weapons to ignore the damage-reducing special abilities of the advanced armors, like shadow-ish conductive armor.

[HEMAN]

Thanks SJ,IF, Good input, I was just thinking Of another 4X Space empire game, That had Armored-Shields or is-it Shielded-armor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif .Cant remember title of game though, but that could bring B5 as close to real arthentic shields for upgraded mod,youldnt you say players.???

Ferengi Rules of Acquisition #16 A Deal is a Deal...untill a better one come along.

[Fyron]

I am apparently missing the HyperSpace system graphics. I have seen at least 3 HyperSpace systems, but none of them have graphics. Have I missed them? Are they available for download somewhere, or are they not made yet?

[Suicide Junkie]

P&N has Hardened Shield Generators which act as armor as well.

Stars had Shield/Armor combo components too.

[Fyron]

Anyone seen these phantom Hyperspace graphics?

[Timstone]

Hi all!
I'm back again from my trip to Italy. Damn, nice women over there. For the first time in 2 years I'm back home. Yehaa! Feels great. And yes, my GF is also here. We haven't decided anything, but for now we are happy the way things are going.
Ah well, back to the mod. As expected I haven't done anything for the mod during my time in Italy. I was busy working and sightseeing with my GF (and enjoying live I might add).

IF: I have seen the pics, I swear. But also I can't seem to find them anymore. Damn, where did they go?!

[Timstone]

Thanks for the swift reply. I send you a mail.

[Fyron]

Could you stick them all in a zip file, keeping the folder structure in-tact, and then upload it to Shrapnel and give us a link?

[AGoetz]

I'll have a go at uploading them tonight (so add a minimum of 10 hours to this message time before I get a chance to try).

[AGoetz]

I have Hyperspace1, 2, 3 and 4.bmp files for 800x600 and 1024x768. Are these the files you are after. If so, email me and I'll send them by return.

[Fyron]

Thanks!

[AGoetz]

If I got this right, this is my grpahics/system folder from my copy of the B5Mod.

1059133002.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1059133002.zip)

[grumbler]

I am also back off of vacation, and TS, I gave some thought while driving to your idea of having colonies be a bit simpler. I think the key ios to have every colony start with a colony hub, which would have a spaceport, some storage, and construction abilities, plus whatever bells and whistles you like. Evry colony would build that first, and then the "resource generating" modules. In my view, this would replace shipyards completely, at least for colonies. Level 3 CHs might even take on some of the attributes of the Military outPosts, with training capabilities.

The existing AI_Construction_facilities files would require only a minor tweak, which I could do (in fact, have done! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Done right, this would allow players to just turn over their construction to the AI as the AI would be as efficient as the players.

[grumbler]

I have done a bit of tweaking of the Stellar Abilities file to incorporate all of the unique techs, and a thought came to me: remember how PF wanted to make some Shadow tech part of the EA tech tree, as the EA used some of it in the series? How about if Shadow-based tech were just a unique tech, since the EA got it by finding shadow vessals left behind from the Last war?

Also, does anybody actually have ideas in hand as to what the "Neurotech" unique tech should do? Should it create a single facility to enhance research on a planet, or create a new type of Educational compound, or what?

[Timstone]

Grumbler: Great that you've actually been busy on the mod on your vacation. Yes, simpeler colonies that is what I want. But is it better? If you give one building almost everything you need and make it pretty cheap (otherwise a colony takes ages to be build) it doesn't seem reasonable. And speaking of intergrating more abilities into one building. I was planning on giving the Nomads more of those buildings. Or shouldn't they be able to colonize?

Today I've ordered the remaining portion of my B5 Wars books. They should arrive in about 2 weeks. Isn't that rediculous. I got a gift from my GF from Poland within 2 days and I have to wait for books for about 2 weeks. I'm living near the center of the world (distribution center, harbor, airport, you know...) and still that awesome waitingtime! Ah well.

The coming 3 weeks I'm busy with family, work, GF and resting. I deserved that. I won't be able to do much about the mod. Maybe some little things here and there. But if you guys have cool ideas, please post them or tell me. Till soon.

Edit: Nice number, I'm feeling evil already! Muahahaha...

[ July 27, 2003, 15:44: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[grumbler]

Tim,

You don't have to put everything in one structure, now that I think it through. You can ignore spaceyard abilities for the start of the colony, as the default colony build rate is 2,000. What you need are "added abilities" at your 6th, 11th, 16th, and 21st structures, to corespond with increasing abilities as planets get bigger.

Somethin I found in a recent test game is that the current system of having very small populations sent with the colony modules is very much inferior to having larger populations (say 50 or even 100) as the AI so seldom (maybe never?)sends out population transports to its colonies. Just make the colony mod bigger and more expensive (so that the AI doesn't deplete the home planet population too much) and I think the AI will be much stronger.

In my test case, I gave the Minbari a colony mod that carried 100 pop. After 100 turns, they had more than three times the points of any other standard race - and had three times the research rate of the ancient races!

[Timstone]

Okay, I'll change the pop of the colony modules to 50. I'll also see what I'll change about the facilities. Maybe I just leave them the way they are. After some playtesting by other people (and of course you and me) we'll tweak them.

Grumbler: What about the RacialTraits.txt I send you? I'm really would like to know what you think of it and if the spelling of the Phonetic stuff is right.

[grumbler]

Tim,

the only questions your RacialTraits.txt raised for me were the following:

[URF A-lai-jans] I think you have a typo here, or something.

[DRAA-see] I am pretty sure that even the Drazi use the "zee" sound and not the "ess"

[IP-sjaa] I am not sure how to pronounce this phonetic spelling (the "sj" sound). I also don't recall anyone ever saying the name, so i don't know how close you are to "canon."

I would add to the Narn they they are primarily using Centauri-designed or derived weapons.

[SJAA-doo] Again, the "sj" sound. Also, the second syllable is definatly the "doh" sound vice "doo".

You also dupe the Yolu at the end.

[Timstone]

Haha... you Americans can't pronounce the "sj" sound? Haha... strange people are aound the world. I designed the phonetic stuff to be readable by Dutch people in particulary and was hoping that the tones were more or less the same for English speaking people. I'll change the ones you said were strange. Oh, and what was wrong with the Yolu?

Edit: Never mind about the Yolu, I've discovered that one.

The reason I haven't filled in all the empty slots with a full descriptions is that I haven't got the books (yet) to fill them with appropriate info.

[ July 28, 2003, 08:56: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[jimbob]

could you add a new racial trait "computer player"? Then you could add in the technologies you need to make the computer "smart" without changing the components used by all.

Now I'm not suggesting that any components be added to this tech tree that would give an unfair advantage to the computer (and so it wouldn't matter if a human player actually chose this racial trait), but you could do things like a customized sized colony component (with larger volume and subsequently higher price) to "force/coherce" the computer into being smarter. I don't know if this would be worthwhile for just the colonization problem, but it seems to me that there were a number of other AI intelligence issues that may be solved this way.

Timstone: Oh yeah, well "sj" you too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 28, 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Timstone]

Well, it's good idea. But the downside of it would be that I would hvae to duplicate the whole contens of the mod. Also that problem isn't that big or difficult, but it would take time. Also I would have to implement 48 new racialtraits. Now that is a hell of a job. Implement both the computer controled racialtraits and the duplication of all the facilities, components, cover ops, etc. One big job. Till now the mod is holding up great and with good AI makers like Pathfinder and all the others at this board, I think it would be a bit of a big job to do rightout. I tell you what if there will be more voices about this idea, I'll try to implement it into the next Version (2.1), alright?

edit: Oh, I would need to implement 48 new racialtraits because of the various racial based facilities.

[ July 28, 2003, 18:08: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Fyron]

edit: Oh, I would need to implement 48 new racialtraits because of the various racial based facilities.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, if it is just adding AI Versions, you can give the AI facilities an extra tech req and have all the AIs use the same trait.

Also, you only need to add extra Versions of those items that would need changes to make the AI smarter. Otherwise, there is no point in making a duplicate of them.

[ July 28, 2003, 19:50: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Walkers of Sigma 957
Extradimensional armor (they've traveled everywhere)

Kirishiac Lords
Gravitic armor (undisputed masters of gravitic technology)

Torvalus
Good question, I really wouldn't know.

Mindriders
Telepatic armor (beings of pure energy and thought)

Triad (all factions)
Very strong conventional armor (they can construct matter out of anything)

Shadows
Organic armor (need I say more?)

Vorlons
organic armor (shees, why do I write this?)

If you have some cool ideas, please do, the more ideas the better. I have all convidence in you. Give yourself a carte blanche.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preliminary stats:
Vorlon Active Armor - size 2, hp 50. Cost 40/80/40
5 crystalline points, 20 OA regen

Shadows - same but 20 CA, and 5 OA.

Triad - Size 5, hp 50, Cost 40/20/120
10 OA, 5 CA, Is Armor.

Mindriders - Suggested: -999% to hit on their ship hulls, since they have little to no physical form?

[ July 28, 2003, 23:48: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[Fyron]

Triad - Size 5, hp 5, Cost 40/20/120
10 OA, 5 CA, Is Armor.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So it can regenerate 2x itself every turn. Isn't that a tad overkill?

[Suicide Junkie]

That should be 50 hp

[Fyron]

That makes a huge difference. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[jimbob]

Imperator: rather important (to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) PM

[Timstone]

Mindriders - Suggested: -999% to hit on their ship hulls, since they have little to no physical form?

Hmm... isn't that a bit over the op? I mean, they are made of pure energy, but most of the weapons are energy weapons.

[FMMonty]

Hi all, I have been playing this Mod for a short while and I must say it seems really good. It is nice to see a decent adaptation of B5 as an actual mod.

While playing this game though I have discovered a large number of bugs and problems, and was wondering if you would like details of them. However I am using the "Gold" Version rather than the 1.49 Version, so I thought I'd ask rather than just post a list of things that don't work that you may have fixed.

By the way why have you chosen to stay pre gold with the mod rather than updating it to the newest Version? I ask this simply because it seems to me that once you have the mod ready you'll have to do a lot of work to move it to the new Version, and then playtest it to check for any mistakes made when moving it over...

[Suicide Junkie]

Going from classic to gold is easier that the reverse.
Since a Version for both was wanted, developing the mod for classic first was the natural choice.

My worst complaint right now is the unfinished ability descriptions.

PS: Who did those, and why haven't they finished it?

[FMMonty]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Going from classic to gold is easier that the reverse.
Since a Version for both was wanted, developing the mod for classic first was the natural choice.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, thanks, that makes sence.

[Timstone]

My worst complaint right now is the unfinished ability descriptions.

Ehh... it might sound a bit noobish, but what do you mean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Half of the facilities have abilities or descriptions labelled as "0" or just blank Last I checked (The PBW game files)
Same with many weapons.

We need to get them filled in, and distributed.

[Fyron]

My worst complaint right now is the unfinished ability descriptions.

PS: Who did those, and why haven't they finished it? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Val, and because he made 1000s of comps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I could make a little utility to set the descriptions on abilities to
"[ability name] - [Ability amount 1] ([ability amount 2])"
If that would help...

I'd have it change only descriptions less than 3 characters long, to protect the ones that have been done already...

[Suicide Junkie]

Laser beams and flashlights generate energy beams, and they don't have any effect on each other.

At least when throwing rocks, the rocks could absorb some energy as they pass through.

Of course, it all depends on exactly what kind of energy is meant by the "beings of pure energy"

[ July 29, 2003, 12:49: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[jimbob]

You see SJ, that's why you're brilliant and... well, I'm not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . I'd have gone in and changed them individually by hand. More accurately, I wouldn't have gone in and changed them all by hand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

No, he is just a programmer. The first rule of programming is that if you are going to do a task more than once, you might as well write a program to do it for you.

[Timstone]

Well, just to be on the safe side I do an overall change... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[FMMonty]

From what I can gather the most up to date Version of this mod is the updated 1.49 Version, and the 1.84 Version is now slightly out of date.

Is there an FAQ or some well written explanations of how to convert from 1.49 to 1.84 out there anywhere, it might give me something to do over the school holidays (being a teacher has some benefits).

[Timstone]

There is a Gold Version around. I don't know where you DL that Version. But the next Version of The Mod is under construction by yours truly. Well, it's not the next Version. It's a remake of the contans of the mod so far. But I hope this Version will become the first choice with the players around. As I said it's still under construction, so you'll have to wait a little longer.

[FMMonty]

Originally posted by Timstone:
There is a Gold Version around. I don't know where you DL that Version. But the next Version of The Mod is under construction by yours truly. Well, it's not the next Version. It's a remake of the contans of the mod so far. But I hope this Version will become the first choice with the players around. As I said it's still under construction, so you'll have to wait a little longer.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you'd like a hand then message me. Too much free time makes me crazy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Timstone]

Thanks, I'll let you all know when I have something usefull to do.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by FMMonty:
If you'd like a hand then message me. Too much free time makes me crazy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey, if you have too much free time on your hands, perhaps you could volunteer to help with Adamant Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Adamant Thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=007973)

[Nomor]

b5mod@yahoo.com

Val would appear to have severed his links.

Come back Val. All is forgiven. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ July 31, 2003, 19:42: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Timstone]

Hey there Nomor! Good to see you again. Where have you been?

[grumbler]

I cannot remember what the justification was for abandoning the B5 canon that starships were built in base spaceyards for the SE4 canon that starships are built on planetary spaceyards. I just was thinking about this the other day (as part of my facilities analysis) and was wondering if anyone could remind me. I am pretty sure this was discussed at one time, but cannot search through all 200+ pages of the thread to recover the argument.

Can anyone help with the justification or at least the timeframe when it was reached?

I cannot finish my v2.0 facilities recommendations without it or the risk of looking like the ADD idiot I am! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Omnicron1]

This is from a guy who has not the time to aid in this monumental task, but idly wonders are there any playable 1.84 Versions?

Originally posted by FMMonty:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Timstone:
There is a Gold Version around. I don't know where you DL that Version. But the next Version of The Mod is under construction by yours truly. Well, it's not the next Version. It's a remake of the contans of the mod so far. But I hope this Version will become the first choice with the players around. As I said it's still under construction, so you'll have to wait a little longer.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If you'd like a hand then message me. Too much free time makes me crazy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Fyron]

Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...

[FMMonty]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think he meant he was after a copy of the gold, but I may be mistaken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway for gold download and install the stuff from Rambies site, and then you need:-

The data files (Gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055128545.zip

And the ai files (gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055690978.zip

These were upped by pathfinder.

[Nomor]

Timstone: Went back to lurking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Timstone]

Nomor: Ah yes...

[Omnicron1]

yes sorry for any confusion FMMonty was correct i was just looking for a working Gold Version sorry for the confusion

Originally posted by FMMonty:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Omnicron1, that statement was a bit harsh. He indeed volunteered his time to help out...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think he meant he was after a copy of the gold, but I may be mistaken http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway for gold download and install the stuff from Rambies site, and then you need:-

The data files (Gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055128545.zip

And the ai files (gold) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055690978.zip

These were upped by pathfinder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[grumbler]

I did a bit of spreadsheet number-crunching while it rained today, and this is what I was able to
come up with in terms of a cursory fighter weapons analysis.

Please excuse any formatting issues.

Comments are welcome.

Summary:

There are 18 unique weapons that fighters can carry. Of these, 3 are seekers, one is point
defense, and 15 direct fire.

Of the three seeker types, all are race-specific:
1. The Fighter missile to the Drazi, Dilgar, and Earth Alliance;
2. The Light Ballistic Torpedo to the Centauri; and
3. The Light Ion Torpedo to the Narn and Cascor.

The PD weapon, the Dogfight Missile, is unique to the Earth Alliance.

Of the Direct fire weapons, all but one are race-specific:
1. The Light Antiproton Gun to the Vree
2. The Ion Bolt to the Centauri and the Cascor
3. The Matter Gun is unrestricted through MG III, then restricted to the Belt Alliance
4. The Light Particle Beam to the Gaim and the Llort
5. The Ultralight Particle Beam to the Abbai and the Raiders
6. The Uni-Pulse Cannon to the Earth Alliance
7. The Gatling Pulse Cannon to the Earth Alliance
8. The Paired Particle Gun to the Narn and the Drazi
9. The Particle BLaster to the Drazi
10. The Light Fusion Cannon to the Minbari
11. The Polarity Cannon to the Shadows
12. The Light Discharge Gun to the Vorlons
13. The Light Plasma Gun to the Pakmara
14. The Light EM Wave Disruptor to the Streib

The Light EM Wave Disrupter is a different style of weapon than the others, because it disrupts
reload time rather than inflicting damage. Thus, I will not consider it further.

For the remaining weapons, I will evaluate using five criteria:
1. Damage/turn/ton of fighter hull taken up (including mod for weapon to hit);
2. Target type
3. Range and loss of power over range;
4. Seeker speed (where appropriate); and
5. Cost in minerals and research points.
In all cases, I will use the “X” model of the weapon to be consistent.

First, I will look at the seekers.

For reference, the following table lists the hull space taken by the X model:

Fighter Missile X 2
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 2
Light Ion Torpedo X 2
Dogfight Missile X 3

Damage/turn/hull is as follows:

Fighter Missile X 3.38
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 4.07
Light Ion Torpedo X 3.38
Dogfight Missile X 1.36

All but the dogfight missile seek only ships. The dogfight missile seeks Ftr\Sat\ Seekers\Drone

Range is as follows (with all seekers keeping the same damage over range):

Fighter Missile X 5
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 13
Light Ion Torpedo X 11
Dogfight Missile X 4

All of the seekers have a speed of 3, except the Dogfight missile, which has a speed of 6. Note
that ship-based seekers at level 10 generally have a speed of 6.

The cost of the weapons is as follows (minerals, then RPs to level 10 rounded to nearest k):

Fighter Missile X 20 759k
Light Ballistic Torpedo X 65 759k
Light Ion Torpedo X 39 759k
Dogfight Missile X 30 759k

Summary on seekers:
While I remain highly dubious that the B5 universe accommodates seekers fired in space by fighter types (never having seen it in the series or movies), it seems that the seekers as set up are a good balance of cost versus effectiveness and they are uniquely different. I would say that the seeker speed of 3 makes them much less effective than they should be in combat, since it makes it possible for ships to outrun them rather easily. I would think it better to make the missiles move 6.

I also do not understand the rationale for having the missiles reload in combat. Where would the
reloads come from? By making reload time 35 turns you can counter-balance the effects of
increasing the speed: the fighters then are very effective on the turn they fire, and then have
to rely on direct fire weapons.

Next, the Direct Fire fighter weapons:

Again, for reference, the number of hull spaces taken by each weapon:

Name Space Taken
Light Antiproton Gun X 5
Ion Bolt X 4
Matter Gun X 2
Light Particle Beam X 4
Ultralight Particle Beam X 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 2
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 8
Paired Particle Gun X 9
Particle BLaster X 19
Light Fusion Cannon X 5
Polarity Cannon X 6
Light Discharge Gun X 5
Light Plasma Gun X 3

The damage/hull/turn of these weapons is as follows:

Light Antiproton Gun X 9.37
Ion Bolt X 10.06
Matter Gun X 10.90
Light Particle Beam X 9.80
Ultralight Particle Beam X 10.35
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 11.50
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 11.21
Paired Particle Gun X 10.99
Particle BLaster X 2.51
Light Fusion Cannon X 9.20
Polarity Cannon X 22.53
Light Discharge Gun X 23.88
Light Plasma Gun X 12.10

All of these weapons fire at Ships\Planets\Ftr\Sat\Drone except the Particle BLaster which fires at ships only.

Max Range is as follows

Light Antiproton Gun X 2
Ion Bolt X 6
Matter Gun X 2
Light Particle Beam X 2
Ultralight Particle Beam X 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 3
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 3
Paired Particle Gun X 3
Particle BLaster X 8
Light Fusion Cannon X 3
Polarity Cannon X 4
Light Discharge Gun X 5
Light Plasma Gun X 4

Here we see some of the “payback” for the Particle BLaster’s low damage levels: its range.

Generally speaking, PD weapons cannot reach this far out.

Of these weapons, most follow the 10% loss per square of range. The exceptions are the particle
bLaster and Ion bolt, both less than 5%, and the Plasma gun, at 15%

The costs of the weapons are as follows (first, cost in minerals, second cost in 100k RPs):

Light Antiproton Gun X 3 14.81
Ion Bolt X 13 9.34
Matter Gun X 0 7.59
Light Particle Beam X 1 7.59
Ultralight Particle Beam X 1 7.59
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 3 7.59
Gatling Pulse Cannon X 8 12.63
Paired Particle Gun X 9 12.63
Particle BLaster X 62 12.63
Light Fusion Cannon X 4 14.81
Polarity Cannon X 9 14.81
Light Discharge Gun X 3 10.00
Light Plasma Gun X 4 5.19

Evaluation of DF weapons:

First, it must be noted that some accommodations needs to be made for races not presently allowed
any fighter weapons other than Matter Cannons I-III. Having noted that, it is quite apparent
that the Ancient races have the best weapons, as it should be. They are both over 20 hits/hull/turn, and the younger races average around 10.

Overall, the EA comes out best when comparing weapons, because the Uni-Pulse Cannon is one of the cheaper weapons (both to research and field), is small, has an average range, and inflicts
above-average damage. The Gatling Pulse Cannon has poorer performance and is more expensive,
however.

The Pakmara light Plasma Gun fares surprisingly well in this comparison. It is cheap, does
above-average damage, has an above-average range (even accounting for its faster range
degeneration) and is small.

There are several weapons that probably are worse than the strict analysis of the numbers would
indicate: the Matter Gun, the Ultralight Particle Beam, and the Light Antiproton Gun. However, the MG has more structure than hull spaces taken, and so resists damage. It also costs nothing to install. The UPG costs no supplies to fire (which may or may not be a moot point, as supply limits have seldom kept fighters from firing in my experience).

The LAG is the exception to the rule that every weapon has a plus side. It is more expensive
than average to research, is big, short-ranged, and doesn’t inflict a lot of damage. I think it
should be reduced in size to 3 hull spaces so that it becomes a more worthwhile weapon.

Of the other weapons, two stand out. The Ion Bolt would be above average (because of damage, and range) but is limited to one per fighter and costs a lot to research. The Particle BLaster looks good on paper, but its targeting deficiencies, combined with the facts that it is huge, is slow to reload, and uses a lot of supply, make it inferior to the other option available to the Drazi, which is to mount two paired particle guns in (less than) the same space. I cannot think of the circumstances under which the extra range of the PB would make me want to build a special class of fighters to contain it.

If you were to categorize the races according to the fighter weapons they get, you might conclude
that:
1. The Vree should stay away from fighters, by and large. They get to produce the Extra
Light Fighter, but have nothing to arm it with.
2. The Cascor and Centauri can produce some interesting fighters based on the Ion bolt and
some torpedoes, but why the Centauri can produce the Ion Bolt and not the Ion torpedo escapes me.
3. The Narn can produce no really worthwhile fighters until they can employ the Paired
particle Beam, and even then their fighters will be slow. They will have to rely on the slow Ion
Torpedo as their main fighter weapon until they get large fighters.
4. The Drazi have lots of choices when it comes to fighters, but few good ones. Like the
Narn, they will have poor fighters (armed with missiles or low-grade Matter Guns) until they can
produce very large fighters.
5. The Dilgar have almost no choices.
6. The Earth Alliance has the only broad range of weapons to choose from. Some of the later choices are counter-productive, but this can be remedied.
7. The Gaim and Llort have no good fighter weapons, but the one they have isn’t hopelessly
outclassed like the Vree’s. Their fighters will just be inferior.
8. The Abbai and Raiders are similar. The weapon they have is just inferior, not totally
outclassed.
9. The Minbari have a good weapon but it is too large to allow them to have the kind of fast
and nimble fighters we know that had. Also, their weapon is inferior to the EA weapons, and we know this was not true, even late in the series.
10. The Streib are incomplete.

The specific changes I would suggest are:
1. Either eliminate the Particle BLaster or give it much more damage.
2. Change the following weapons sizes (and adjust damage inflicted somewhat to bring them
near 10 dam/turn/hull):

Name Now Should be
Light Antiproton Gun X 5 3
Matter Gun X 2 3
Uni-Pulse Cannon X 2 3
Paired Particle Gun X 9 6
Light Fusion Cannon X 5 4

3. Make the Matter Gun through level 10 available to all races.
4. Consider making the default weapons size for all types something like 2 hull, and then
create weapons mounts for the larger fighters that would add damage, range, and cost. This would really only work well with QNP for fighters, which is easily doable (and in fact I have done it, if anyone is interested in seeing the still-in-test-stage results).

A nit from the TV series and movies isn’t reflected in the game: we know from Endgame that both EA and Minbari fighter DF weapons can target missiles. The game does not allow such weapons
(that can target ships and seekers). Is it worthwhile creating weak PD weapons that can only be mounted one per ship to get this effect?

[The Canuck]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

dats alot o writting, but very insightful

good work grumbler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ August 11, 2003, 00:58: Message edited by: The Canuck ]

[Fyron]

First off, keep in mind that gameplay and balance ALWAYS outweigh canonical issues by far.

All of this analysis was done when Val set up the weapons, you know. He did not just pick random numbers out of the blue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I also do not understand the rationale for having the missiles reload in combat. Where would the
reloads come from? By making reload time 35 turns you can counter-balance the effects of
increasing the speed: the fighters then are very effective on the turn they fire, and then have
to rely on direct fire weapons.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">They would come from the fighters, of course. You did not think a fighter can only carry one missile, did you? Real fighter jets carry lots of missiles on them, not just one. There is no reason space fighters would only be able to carry one missile.

Of these weapons, most follow the 10% loss per square of range. The exceptions are the particle
bLaster and Ion bolt, both less than 5%, and the Plasma gun, at 15%
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think you are reading the bonus to hit line wrong. All weapons lose 10% accuracy at each range. The ones with bonuses just get a bonus to hit, not a different scale of accuracy loss.

1. Either eliminate the Particle BLaster or give it much more damage.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do not underestimate the effects of weapon stacking. It is the stacking of lots of PDC fire in unmodded SE4 that makes the PDCs overwhelm missiles and fighters, not their high damage rates.

[ August 11, 2003, 01:21: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
First off, keep in mind that gameplay and balance ALWAYS outweigh canonical issues by far.

All of this analysis was done when Val set up the weapons, you know. He did not just pick random numbers out of the blue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah. I thought he did the numbers from the B5 Wars books. If all the analysis was done, can you point me to it and save me some time?

Even so, I don't see how "gameplay issues" and "balance" relate to the "fighter missile weapons are not canon" issue.

They would come from the fighters, of course. You did not think a fighter can only carry one missile, did you? Real fighter jets carry lots of missiles on them, not just one. There is no reason space fighters would only be able to carry one missile.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uhm, how do modern jet fighters reload, again? I mean, I understand why a fighter in the game can carry more than one missile. I just don't understand how they can be out of missiles for 15 turns and then have missiles again. The issue isn't multiple missiles, it is reloading.

I think you are reading the bonus to hit line wrong. All weapons lose 10% accuracy at each range. The ones with bonuses just get a bonus to hit, not a different scale of accuracy loss.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, I was talking about damage rate degradation over range but wasn't clear on that. I didn't figure in accuracy loss as it is consistent between all the weapons, and so does not differentiate between them.

Do not underestimate the effects of weapon stacking. It is the stacking of lots of PDC fire in unmodded SE4 that makes the PDCs overwhelm missiles and fighters, not their high damage rates.[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am not sure how this relates to my point about the Particle BLaster. The Particle BLaster is huge in size but not in effect. In fact, it is distinctly inferior in all but range to the Paired Particle Beam which becomes available with the exact same research.

I just ran a series of simulations seeing how many of each type of heavy fighter (one with two PPB, one with one PB) it would take to knock out a level 10 Centauri battleship (equipped the same way in both runs, with one Heavy Array as the anti-fighter weapon) half the time.

For the PPB, it was between 20 and 25 (I didn't try for granularity greater than that) and for the PB it was between 40 and 45. That tells me the PB isn't worth it, which is what i suspected from the numbers. So, it should either be improved or scrapped, as it is a weapon people should not buy.

As a side note, I ran the same test using EA fighters, one with fighters having 6 Unipulse cannons, and one with the same fighters having 6 Fighter missiles (both weapons being the same size, it was the same hull otherwise). It took 20 fighters with unipulse cannons to take out the BB half the time. The test with fighter missiles I gave up on after they lost 100% of the time when they had 150 fighters! However, a fighter with 3 of each weapon required only 15 fighters to defeat the BB half the time, so the mix of weapons appears to be best - giving a significant advantage in ship-ship action to those races having both seekers and DF weapons.

When I ran a BB escorted by 10 fighters on each side, the mixed-weapon-equipped fighters still seemed to hold a slight edge (but how much wasn't clear, as I din't run the full 100 reps in any of these tests).

So, what can I say? I am trying to help here, and maybe stimulate some interest. I have concluded from my analysis that including fighter-mounted seekers does not appear to improve gameplay or balance (probably the opposite) and it isn't canon to boot, so at least future mods might want to seriously consider scrapping them. If analysis was done that indicates otherwise, I would love to see it.

[Fyron]

Ah. I thought he did the numbers from the B5 Wars books. If all the analysis was done, can you point me to it and save me some time? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I meant, Val already set them up to be balanced. So no, I can't. You could skim the early pages of this thread to see if anything is there though.

Even so, I don't see how "gameplay issues" and "balance" relate to the "fighter missile weapons are not canon" issue.

So, what can I say? I am trying to help here, and maybe stimulate some interest. I have concluded from my analysis that including fighter-mounted seekers does not appear to improve gameplay or balance (probably the opposite) and it isn't canon to boot, so at least future mods might want to seriously consider scrapping them. If analysis was done that indicates otherwise, I would love to see it. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Fighters shooting missiles is good for gameplay, as it gives more strategic options, and is more fun. Making sure everything is 100% canon is bad for gameplay. They do not appear to degrade gameplay or balance, esp. from your tests...

Uhm, how do modern jet fighters reload, again? I mean, I understand why a fighter in the game can carry more than one missile. I just don't understand how they can be out of missiles for 15 turns and then have missiles again. The issue isn't multiple missiles, it is reloading.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, the issue is multiple missiles. SE4 is limited in that you can not have a missile comp that has 5 missiles and a ROF of 1, but can't fire any missiles after the 5th is fired. So, if a missile comp carries 6 missiles, this has to be done with ROF 5. It has nothing to do with restocking from a carrier or a base or anything.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm pretty sure I've seen missiles on the fighters... little tubes hanging from the wings.
They just don't use 'em much.

I wouldn't use 'em too much myself when I have an effective (one hit either kills or totally cripples the enemy fighter), unlimited ammo energy weapon as the alternative.

[Timstone]

Hi all!

Sorry for the long silence, but I've been busy with work, women and... well, let's leave the other thing to the imagination of the readers.

Good work on the weapon analysis Grumbler! Must have been tough dull work. But very insightfull and usefull. Great work.

It might seem a little bit noobish to react in the manner I'm going to but I think it's the best thing to do. Val has done loads of work and will remain the ferm basis for the 2.0 Version. I have a mayor part of the B5 Wars books and I have found almost every weapon from the mod in these books. He used the books as a direct source for the damage, the weight and the fire rate. The cost of the weapons is yet to be researched by me. With the B5 Wars books being the basis for it all, I think it be wise to use the books again as the basis for the 2.0 Version. The books themselfs are already balanced (to the mechanics of the tabletop game), so the only think we have to do is to translate them into SE 4 terms. This is a very labourous work so it takes a lot of dedication and time (time is very, very important) and just a tiny bit of knowledge of the serie. As Imperator Fyron already noticed. Gameplay before Canon. Again, the books already are as canon to the serie as possible (and balanced), the only thing that remains is the translation to SE 4.

To make the translation to SE 4 easier, I'm busy making a sort of calculation program (sorry SJ, I'm not a programmer, just a simple engineer, so I'm making it in Excel). I hope this program will be the tool for the many weapons in the 2.0 Version of the beautiful mod. This program is the the only thing I would like to finish before I have anything usefull to do for the ones who so willingly said they want to help in the creation of 2.0.

SJ: How is the armor thingy coming along?

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Walkers of Sigma 957
Extradimensional armor (they've traveled everywhere)

Kirishiac Lords
Gravitic armor (undisputed masters of gravitic technology)

Torvalus
Good question, I really wouldn't know.

Mindriders
Telepatic armor (beings of pure energy and thought)

Triad (all factions)
Very strong conventional armor (they can construct matter out of anything)

Shadows
Organic armor (need I say more?)

Vorlons
organic armor (shees, why do I write this?)

If you have some cool ideas, please do, the more ideas the better. I have all convidence in you. Give yourself a carte blanche.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preliminary stats:
Vorlon Active Armor - size 2, hp 50. Cost 40/80/40
5 crystalline points, 20 OA regen

Shadows - same but 20 CA, and 5 OA.

Triad - Size 5, hp 50, Cost 40/20/120
10 OA, 5 CA, Is Armor.

Mindriders - Suggested: -999% to hit on their ship hulls, since they have little to no physical form?

Kirishiac - max OA & CA, non-armor, 5/50 size/hp

Walkers - little bit of everything - Size 7, hp 50, 20 OA, 10CA, is armor

Torvalus - size 2 hp 50, 10 OA 10 CA (shadow/vorlon middle ground)

-----

I'd really like some feedback on how this all sounds.
There will be a tech progression so the ancient races have something to spend their research points on. No extreme differences though.

[ August 11, 2003, 14:52: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[AGoetz]

Nice work there on the fighter weapons.
How long would a side by side comparison of fighers and anti-fighter weapons take by race? Just thinking from the Gaim point of view, a sub-par fighter weapon and a very short range point-defence weapon points to a lot of trouble with the little guys ...

[grumbler]

To all: I have to reiterate that I lack the B5 wars books and (to be a bit snotty about it) don't regard them as canon, except where they correspond to the TV series and movies.

I am interested purely in what works for the mod. If people want to disregard what "works" in favor of "what is canon accoring to B5 wars" I am okay with that completely. My "personal mod" is already pretty far from the "official Version" anyway.

I think I can demonstrate, for instance, that the "Manuufacturing facility" is a net loss to produce, and that the whole issue of planetary versus orbital starship production of spaceships is contrary to canon, but I won't, unless people are willing to acccept that Val's work was preliminary.

If Val's work is set in concrete, then there is little I can add, and I will just make quiet adjustments based on my analysis for my own use.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by AGoetz:
Nice work there on the fighter weapons.
How long would a side by side comparison of fighers and anti-fighter weapons take by race? Just thinking from the Gaim point of view, a sub-par fighter weapon and a very short range point-defence weapon points to a lot of trouble with the little guys ...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not a trivial comparison, but clearly worthwhile. THAT is the comparison worth making, clearly, but the range of PD weapons is so huge (mostly because of the emphasis on giving the EA lots of choices) that it seems useless to go on with this analysis unless something would change as a result.

Or, to give the alternate answer: Val already analyed that and gave the Gaim exactly what they deserved.

[ August 13, 2003, 03:31: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Fyron]

After Val's Last disappearance, there has been little to no direction to this mod...

I never said anything about staying canon to anything. In fact, I said staying strictly canon is a bad idea.

[Timstone]

SJ: Nice work on the armor. Would you mind putting it into text format? Thank you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Grumbler: In my opinion nothing is set into concrete. I don't think the work that has been done so far is absolute perfect. If there is a better solution to a certain problem why not incorporate it into the mod. Again, gameplay above canon. I only argued that the B5 Wars books are a solid base from which to work.

Yeah, number 3400!! Jehaa!

Edit: Oh Grumbler, Ehh... for the release of 2.0, I don't think it be wise to make too many changes. 2.0 is delayed as it is, so I think I keep the contens I have so far and build upon that. As soon as people like the 2.0 we go and snoop out some cool changes. In the meantime, please be free to come up with some nice changes. Keep up the good work!

[ August 13, 2003, 08:36: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Suicide Junkie]

Anything specific, or constructive criticism?

It feels like I'm modding blindly here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Timstone]

Well, as you know I'm not the designer of the armor components in The Mod (duh) and my knowledge is rather limited of those components. So I take your word for it that the things you've deviced are in balance with The Mod and are apropriate for each race.

Ehh... okay, I've got one question for you SJ. Why do the Mindriders have -999% to hit? Isn't that a bit too much? Afterall most of the weapons used are energy weapons and since the Mindriders are energy they should feel something. If one race should have such a to hit bonus it would be the Walkers. They travel to different dimensions, so they could maybe bring their vessels out of phase with the rest of space (one half here and one half in another dimension).

Maybe a good idea for all the members of the Triad. Give them a huge shield bonus. There are four factions; Neutrality, Chaos, Order and Combined. They can have the same armor what I'm concerned. Because Order has angelic names and uses light A LOT, maybe they can have a huge shield array in/on their armor.

A rather large edit, don't you think? Hehe...

[ August 13, 2003, 17:40: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Suicide Junkie]

I can do the balance somewhat...
Determining whether it is appropriate to the race is another thing entirely.

How much stronger should the ancients be? Are the effects somewhat reasonable.

[Timstone]

I've edited my Last message.

[Suicide Junkie]

Energy dosen't interact with energy much at all.
You can't play starwars with flashlights and lasers.

Energy Beam weapons would just pass right through an energy creature and keep going until they hit a solid mass.

Now, I may be completely mistaken on the nature of that race, if so, please mention it.

[Loser]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Energy dosen't interact with energy much at all.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think I really belong in this thread, but moving electrons create magnetic fields. Energy can mess with energy, especially if the potentially disrupted energy is particularly complex (like a 'life form').

I'm not sure that even enters into the discussion but...

[jimbob]

I think that SJ is fairly accurate on this one. I think that fields can definitely mess with energy, as can mass. Perhaps the most effective weapons against an energy being would be either a magnetic field or a mass weapon (ie back to DUCs) of some sort. How you'd make those forms more effective against them and them alone would be a challenge however.

Perhaps have a really high "miss" bonus (for example SJs proposal for -999% to hit on their hulls) and then produce a Category of "anti-energy being" weapons that do very very little damage (ie. 5 to 20 points) but that have an incredibly high to hit bonus. Then give the energy beings very low structure values on all their components to make the "anti-energy being" weapons effective against them.

This does mean that the high to hit bonus will work against all ships, but the paucity of damage should make this a "non-prefered" weapon against most races. It could still be effective vs. units, so make them ship/base/planet/drone only weapon series. Additionally, some normal weapons will occassionally hit the energy beings, and do massive damage relative to their "fragile" ships. However, with a -999% to hit on their hulls, this should be pretty rare, right?

just my 2 bits

[ August 13, 2003, 19:22: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[Phoenix-D]

However, with a -999% to hit on their hulls, this should be pretty rare, right?"

They'll hit 1% of the time. Can't go any lower.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by Loser:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Energy dosen't interact with energy much at all.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't think I really belong in this thread, but moving electrons create magnetic fields. Energy can mess with energy, especially if the potentially disrupted energy is particularly complex (like a 'life form').

I'm not sure that even enters into the discussion but...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And a magnetic field won't affect photons without a neutron star collapse powering the field to a strength of many Billion Tesla.

Its like waves on water... if you have a wave from a boat coming and you throw pebbles into the water, the waves pass though each other, and both waves continue as if the other weren't there.
Up to the point where you start making splashes, of course.

[Loser]

Originally posted by jimbob:
...with a -999% to hit on their hulls, this should be pretty rare, right?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seekers will still hit 100%, no?

[Suicide Junkie]

True. We could have a 0-reload, 1 range PD cannon to instantly smash any seekers that get too close.
"High energy boundary effects disrupt missiles".

[Timstone]

Well this conversation about energy and unknown lifeforms is very interseting, but since we've never encountered such a race before, let alone ANY alien, we are just guessing in the dark. But I have one addition to make.

Quote from SJ:
Its like waves on water... if you have a wave from a boat coming and you throw pebbles into the water, the waves pass though each other, and both waves continue as if the other weren't there.
Up to the point where you start making splashes, of course.

NO, NO, NO!! The waves don't just pass through eachother, they interact with eachother. The wave that goes from left to right gives A PART of it's kinetic energy over to the wave from right to left and vice versa. This energy creates another wave on the "back" of the other wave. They just seem to be passing through each other. EVERYTHING that has only the tiniest bit of energy in it interacts with it's environment. Except when the particles involved have such a high velocity or such a high mass (density) or a neutral charge (chemicaly inert or simply no electrons of protons (or their antimatter counterparts)).

Well we're dwelling of the subject of the matter (oh no, I said matter, hehe...). So what will be the best solution for our problem? I still think the Walkers must have the -999% to hit bonus on their armor and the Mindriders something else, but I don't know what.

Oh, the Vorlons, the Walkers, the Triad and the Mindriders are all energy beings. The Triad were energy beings from the beginning. The other three "just" evolved into beings of energy.

[Fyron]

The Shadows are energy beings too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Timstone]

Nope, in the serie they are beings of flesh (??) and blood (??). Also in the B5 Wars books they are not described as beings of energy. They do radiate a dark energy that drives mortal beings mad or at least makes them feel uncomfortable.

Edit: typo's.

[ August 14, 2003, 10:49: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[grumbler]

The Shadows are beings of light, just as the Vorlons are. This is explicitely stated in Invoking Darkness, the third Technomage book (page 9, in which the death of Kosh is described from his POV). The carapaces are just encounter suits, like Kosh's. And JMS has stated that the Technomage series is canon.

[Timstone]

Okay, okay, I yield. Stupid thing that the B5 Wars books never mentioned that the Shadows use encountersuits too. Ah well, doesn't matter. Thanks for the info guys and sorry if I've made you a bit angry (Imperator??). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[jimbob]

Okay, but the thing that matters isn't whether or not the race is made of energy... but whether or not their ships are made of matter or energy. Some whisp of energy floating around in space isn't gonna waste my dreadnought, but a complete ship - coherent or no - is very likely to do some damage to my beloved fleet. So what races have energy based ships?

[Suicide Junkie]

While the waves are in contact, they add linearly, and after they separate again they still have their original form. One wave isn't affected by the other.

But that aside, it seems all our ancients can be described as energy beings that still use regular (physical) ships.
So the question remains what do to for the rare ancient species. (Mindriders, Torvalus)
We can pretty much ignore their physical form, but What is special about their Ships/Technology?

[Timstone]

Sorry I have to continue with this, but I think this is one of the things I've been trained to do (hey, I'm an engineer, what can I say?!).

Quote from SJ:
While the waves are in contact, they add linearly, and after they separate again they still have their original form. One wave isn't affected by the other.

Add linearly? What do they add and what do you mean with linearly? What do you think happens when a slightly larger wave impacts with a smaller wave? Don't you think that the smaller wave has a minor effect on the larger wave? The waves don't pass through eachother and they certainly effect eachother.
Ever heard of ball lightning? It's more or less the same thing. The ball lightning (the stuff that makes up the ball isn't important, only the energy contens of the ball) can pass through stuff, like bricks, concrete, metal plates, even lead. It accomplishes this by the generated microwaves. The microwaves have a high energy contens so they can go through most stuff (provided it isn't too thick). When the waves hit the wall, some of them go through and some of them don't. The waves that go through always get a little scattered, this leaves the other side of the wall with the same rimples of microwaves as the waves in the water. On the places where the microwaves touch eachother (a peak so to speak) another ball lightning will come into live. Not every peak creates a new ball. Only the ones with high enough energy. It takes more than one of those peaks to create a ball lightning of the same size it was before it hit the wall.

I used this piece of knowledge to show that the waves in water behave excatly like the waves in the water. I hope I didnt sound cocky, angry or otherwise a bit idiotic. It was not my intension to do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Back to the races.

Walkers:
Travellers, they have been to each corner of the galaxy and back again. They also travel to different dimensions (except Thirdspace, hehe...). They use powerful sensors (EM) as their weapons.
Kirishiac:
Warriors, they tried to take over the galaxy and were almost succesful (they were stopped (ultimately) by the Walkers). They are the undisputed masters of gravimetric tech.
Torvalus:
Spies, they are the most secretive spieces ever. Mostly busy with gathering intelligence or gambling. They field the most advanced lasers and best cloaking tech.
Triad:
Actually consisting of three seperate beings (all that is left from their race in our galaxy), Order, Neutrality and Chaos. When they agree to work together thay are the Triad Combined. They can make automatons with simple thought and use advanced plasma weapons to defend themselfs (Combined). Order uses light bases weaponery (prism's and the like), Neutrality uses matter based weapons and Chaos uses a mix of plasma, matter and light.
Mindriders:
Beings of pure thought. They run constantly experiments with lesser races (young races). Their ships are just hollow gathering places. One group of beings steers the craft another controls the weapons yet another protects the ship etc. They use thought to defend them selfs.
Vorlons and Shadows:
I don't think I need to tell you guys and girls much about these dudes.

None of the Ancients use ships that consiste entirely of pure energy. They all use "matter" for the construction of their vessels. I think their armor must reflect the general thought of the race.

So the Shadows must have mostly organic armor with a high damage dissipation.
The Vorlons more or less the same but with a shield instead of damage dissipation.
The Torvalus must have a high cloaking rate.
The Kirishiac must have almost indestructable armor (constructed with many rads).
The Walkers must have a high to hit penalty for they can phase in and out another dimension (so can the rest of the Ancients, but they excel in it).
The Mindriders must have a high to hit penalty and some sort of shield (combo between Walkers and Vorlons).
The Triad must have strong armor and adamage dissipation (combo between Shadow and Kirishiac).

I hope these answers are of help. I hope you guys have some original ideas yourself, coz I'm no creative person, I just mention the first things that pop up in my mind 9and what I read in the B5 Wars books).
Cheerio!

Edit: Typo's! Many more left, I know...

[ August 14, 2003, 18:22: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[Fyron]

When 2 waves of energy pass through each other, they add or cancel, depending on their relative frequencies. But this is only when they are in contact. Once they pass through each other, they return to normal, unchanged. This can be seen by shining two flashlights in crossing paths. Where the beams meet, there will be up to 2x as much light. But after they have crossed, the individual beams are the same as they were before they met. This also happens with sound waves. I am not sure about other types of waves (such as waves of water), but I think they follow the same physics.

[Suicide Junkie]

OT:
If you have a square wave of height 10cm, going left, say. And a square wave of 15 cm, going right.

When the waves begin overlapping, you get a height of 25cm (they add linearly means 10+15=25) where they overlap. After the waves pass, you end up with a 10cm wave on the left and a 15 cm wave on the right, still the same shape.
IE: the waves do not affect each other, since after the "interaction", the waves are still the same as they were before.

For an animated example See:
http://Users.erols.com/renau/wave_interference.html

Ball lightning (http://www.google.ca/search?q=ball+lightning+site:edu&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=20&sa=N) sounds like a plasma of N2/O2 sustained by a concentration of microwaves or just slowly fading away after being generated(by lightning, say).
No matter the source, it is hardly pure energy, since it operates in an atmosphere.

BTW plasma is not pure energy, either, it is just really hot matter, such that the electrons have been stripped away from the nuclei, and it forms a soup of electrons and protons.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Okay, okay, I yield. Stupid thing that the B5 Wars books never mentioned that the Shadows use encountersuits too. ...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Which is one of the reasons why I have difficulties with regarding the B5 Wars books as "canon" rather than as a mere starting place... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif but that is neither here nor there.

The Shadows never man their ships, so their actual form is not meaningful for mod purposes.

Incidently, I just was watching the B5 season 3 DVD, and Garibaldi, in the "Shadow Files" extra bit, mentions that there are only 6 million Shadows. So most of what the mod regards as the Shadows is really their allies and slaves.

[Timstone]

Haha... nice responds. Except on the part of the ideas about the beloved Ancients.

I think we best drop the thing about the waves. I think we all bear some truth but none has the whole truth. Ah well, let's call it a drw. "A draw?! Come back here you coward!" "What are you going to do? Bleed on me?!" Hehe...

Come on people what about the Ancients? What do you think of my ideas?

[Bonefish]

BK - Its just a flesh wound...
KA - But your arms off !
BK - no it isnt.
KA - Look!
BK - Ive had worse! COME ON YA' PANSY !

[Fyron]

To beat a dead horse, there was one episode speficically that showed the Shadows to be energy beings. The humans made a military base on some planet or moon or whatever. Some "demon" killed off all but a few people, then follwed them in the sleeper ship they set off on. It was a soldier of darkness left behind by the Shadows in the Last war or some such, and was an energy being. So either the Shadows are energy beings, or they have the ability to create energy beings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Take your pick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Come on people what about the Ancients? What do you think of my ideas? <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have no comments on them, as I have never even heard of most of them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I think we best drop the thing about the waves. I think we all bear some truth but none has the whole truth. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Except for SJ...

[ August 16, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[deccan]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
To beat a dead horse, there was one episode speficically that showed the Shadows to be energy beings. The humans made a military base on some planet or moon or whatever. Some "demon" killed off all but a few people, then follwed them in the sleeper ship they set off on. It was a soldier of darkness left behind by the Shadows in the Last war or some such, and was an energy being. So either the Shadows are energy beings, or they have the ability to create energy beings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Take your pick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe that you are referring to the episode The Long Dark (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/027.html). JMS says that it wasn't an actual shadow, but a shadow servant.

[Timstone]

Quote by IF:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we best drop the thing about the waves. I think we all bear some truth but none has the whole truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Except for SJ...

Tss...

[Lighthorse]

Space Empires IV Play By Web is back on line

[Fyron]

Is Pathfinder still around? He is the only one that hadn't played the current turn.

[jimbob]

Yaaahhhh

I'm very happy to see this ... I've spent far too much time on work and relatives over the Last few weeks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ummm... I don't want to step on any toes or hurt any feelings, and know full well that RL can get in the way of things, but I've noticed that the Shag Toth are rarely played these days. They have had an excellent record up until June 23rd, but have missed every turn since that date. As only the Shag Toth are yet to play (and potentially won't being playing in the near future?) I propose that we push the turn through right away, so that the game gains some momentum again.

My opinions, viewed as humble or not, are not intended to, in any way what-so-ever, minimize, detract from, or ignore the important contribution(s) of the Shag Toth and/or their relatives to the current B5 Universe and the high degree of their civilizational contributions, etc. etc.

[Fyron]

I don't think we should give up so soon after PBW has come back Online...

[jimbob]

Oh, I definitely agree that we don't want anyone to miss out on a turn. I'm just hoping to keep the momentum up, and the trend for PF seemed apparent... though this could have changed over the Last 2 weeks while the PBW was down/unavailable. If we push this turn though, it would get the rest of us back into the game, and PF would only have missed one more turn (of something like 15). If he pops up really soon, I'd be okay with even going back in time for him and replaying this turn that I'm proposing we push.

But hey, you're the boss, I will bow to the will of the might Vorlons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

cheers y'all,
jimbob

[Timstone]

Are the Shag Toth nomads or a normal race?

[Dawn Falcon]

Sigh. Still getting AI errors.

I get the core and data files off the old website, then add the two newer files, right?

[grumbler]

DF, what errors are you getting? Loading errors, or errors when the game is running? One is a case of bad data files, the other of bad AI files.

[ August 23, 2003, 04:15: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Fyron]

For reference, here is a compilation file of 1.49.33 (what is used in the B5 Mod PBW game) that has no AI errors:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1052175132.zip

[pathfinder]

I lost access to PBW site after replacing my motherboard in late June and that also messed up by hotmail account that I received turns on. AND now the PC is on the fritz again so, whatever ya'll decide for the Shag'Toth is ok by me. I honestly can not say when my PC will be back Online.

[Stargrazer]

IF: PM
SVP

[Fyron]

Send an email to Geoschmo about it, and I am sure he can get your account squared away. If nothing else, you could create a new account, I can kick the old one from the game, and you can rejoin with the new account. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[XenoTheMorph]

Hi everybody! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I must say I am new to these forums but not the Game. I am however having trouble getting the B5ModCore30 files. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/Files/B5ModCore30.zip

This is due to (all of)-
V Slow Connection/2 Hour connection timeout( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif )/xmission.com not allowing me to resume downloads.

With all that grit out the way does anybody know of another download site? It would be most appreciated.

Lets Hope...

[narf poit chez BOOM]

hi, welcome to the forums.

cheese?

[XenoTheMorph]

Only with nachos!
or macaroni! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

I suggest you download this instead, which is a compilation of all of the files including the updates to the mod to 1.49.33:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1052175132.zip

You can use a download manager such as GetRight (http://www.getright.com) to aide in downloading large files. It allows resuming and such, so you don't have to worry about downloading the entire file in one session.

[openair]

Hey... ive been playing the B5 Gold mod for about 6 months now, and just yesterday i realized u can capture (or trade probably too) other races technology... and was wondering how this was done?

ever other mod ive played, as well as stock SEIV does not allowing trading/capture of Racail techs...

[Suicide Junkie]

You can steal/trade any tech that the recieving party has the racial requirements for.

If two races both have organic manipulation, they can trade Organic Weapons and Organic technology with each other, for example.

Also, if Tech A is a racial tech, but tech B is not, and if tech B requires level 2 in tech A before it becomes available, then tech B can still be traded to third parties (but not researched by anyone with out the Racial tech)

[ September 03, 2003, 00:43: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]

[grumbler]

Timstone,

I have not been posting for a while because I was involved in two truly excellent games using some ideas you and I batted around a while ago.

First, I followed up on your idea of having a "core facility" at each colony, followed by specialized facilities. I modded the colony hub aand homeworld hub to include spaceyard facilities and made it the first priority in every colony (I dumped all the other spaceyard facilities by making their tech levels impossible). It was then possible to make reasonable AI choices for all combinations of planets, and that worked out well. Its a bit more dull for the human player, as he really cannot do better than the AI, but that's a price I was willing to pay.

As part of this, I also boosted greatly the cost and build points of base shipyards, so that ships were built in space, but this is a pet project and not necessary for the success of the AI in colonizing.

I also made colony modules carry 50 pop and cost 3 times normal (lest the homeworlds become too depopulated). This also worked out very well.

In both games, I played non-"prime time" races (the Narn in one, the Centauri in the other). After 300 turns, I wasn't in the lead in either game. In fact, in the Centauri game I conquered the Gaim and the Minbari and still was in third place after 300 turns, with less than half the points of the leader, the EA!

The only thing I noticed as a problem was that Black Hole systems basically stymie the AI player. The AI just keeps sending in their colonizers and the colonizers don't have the speed to escape. In one game, the LNAW had a total population of under 2 billion, because they had another 2 billion or so on 40 colonizers caught in a black hole's grav well two systems away from homeworld. Maybe the whole Black Hole issue needs to be revisited with QNP.

In any case, the ideas you had for Version 2 seem to be solid. I haven't ever enjoyed a solo game of B5 as much as I have these two based on your ideas.

I also have QNP fighter stats if you are interested...

[openair]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
Also, if Tech A is a racial tech, but tech B is not...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I see... thank u muchly for clearing that up for me...

[jimbob]

I'm interested! Send the Fighter Stats to me too!

[XenoTheMorph]

Thank you Imperator Fyron just what i was looking for!!! and it is smaller to! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I have to use Getright it is the only way i'm able to download anything of any reasonable size.

[Timstone]

Quote by Grumbler:

I haven't ever enjoyed a solo game of B5 as much as I have these two based on your ideas.

Yeah! Great stuff man! Now that's the comment I love to hear. It's very, very good to hear from you again. I'm busy with amother job right now (when does it ever stop), so I can't actively join you with the making of the mod. But I haven't been idle, I have made some progress with our beloved mod.

Quote by Grumbler:

I also have QNP fighter stats if you are interested...

I am interseted, but please don't send them right now. The computer I have with me is a mess. When it's sorted out, I will contact you here.

PLease Grumbler, keep up the good work. Thank you very, very much for keeping alive my enthusiasm.

[Fyron]

We could use a couple of replacements for open empires in the PBW game "Babylon 5 Game".

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
We could use a couple of replacements for open empires in the PBW game "Babylon 5 Game".<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Alas, I no longer have my preGold game. Next time, if you go Gold, I will be in.

[Timstone]

Quote by Grumbler:

Next time, if you go Gold, I will be in.

Sorry, I'll just work a bit less to get the next Version ready. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[grumbler]

Sorry, I'll just work a bit less to get the next Version ready. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey! I heard that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[grumbler]

A question for y'all:

I have the B5 season 3 DVD, and of course have watched the "severed dreams" ep several times.

One thing that struck me was that when the Alexander wanted to use it's particle weapons, it was from long range (and they were intercepted), but when it wanted to use its laser weapons the CO ordered the Xo to close the range to "right down their throat."

Are we going to folow the series or the B5Wars games in this mod?

[Suicide Junkie]

My guess:
After the first volley failed, he'd want to make sure the next one succeeded.
Getting closer means more accuracy, and the potential to target a critical system instead of just hoping for anywhere on the ship.

[Suicide Junkie]

Secondary images are in case the primary isn't there.
For the stock files, races pretty much ALWAYS have the basics. The only shipsets that don't are probably the Rock/Paper/Scissors sets I made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It becomes useful when you look at the neostandard, or any mod with expanded hull sizes.
You can say:
Primary := troop infantry (a new, or neostandard image)
Secondary := troop small (a stock image, guaranteed to be there)

That way, you can mix shipsets that have and don't have the extra images in the same game.

Does anyone know where you mod the starting facilities?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Homeworlds get:
1 - Facility with Spaceport ability
1 - Facility with Resupply Depot ability
50% - Mineral Extractor
1 - Organics Extractor
1 - Radioactives extractor
Leftover Space - Research Centers

The game will use whatever facility gives the most points, and is available on turn #1.
For Spaceport/Resupply, it will either take the first or Last facility with that ability in the file, IIRC.

[Loser]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Junkie, but if you have the Natural Merchant trait your Homeworld will not start with a Spaceport, and if the game starts with Max Tech you will not have any Research Centers, it will fill the rest of the sapce with Mineral producing Facilities.

[XenoTheMorph]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Junkie, but if you have the Natural Merchant trait your Homeworld will not start with a Spaceport, and if the game starts with Max Tech you will not have any Research Centers, it will fill the rest of the sapce with Mineral producing Facilities. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmm, that would explain why The EarthAlliance does not have the Homeworld Hub.
They have 'Natural Merchant', possible this is a disadvantage to have in the B5 universe since they loose out on lots of advantages that come with the Hub?
And all for 1 extra research facility http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Oh Well...

[Alneyan]

Thanks Xeno, I tried another Version of B5 and then it worked fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It seems like only the latest Version isn't working with SE:IV, or I am unable to make it work, your choice.

Or rather, the game is running fine, but it doesn't seem to take the mod into account. Hmm, I gather you must have the pre-gold Version or make many changes like you.

[ September 06, 2003, 16:57: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

[Fyron]

The mod works fine, but only on pre-gold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif There are some Gold conVersions floating about, but they are not necessarily the latest Version of the mod.

[Alneyan]

I tried to install Babylon 5 Mod (the zip file Fyron mentioned a few Posts ago) but when I launch the game, I have many errors as the game tells me it cannot find some entries in the settings.txt file. When I manually add these entries, I have a hundred more error Messages, this time linked to the weapons and ships. The game still loads, but I can only go to Credits or Quit Game.

I tried with both the Mod Loader and via replacing the stock files, but it still doesn't work. So what I am doing wrong? The mod seems to work fine for everybody else save me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (Nothing surprising here) I searched on the forum for help, but as there are more around three thousand Posts in that single thread, you can see why I only read the first fifty Posts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks in advance if someone can help me out!

[XenoTheMorph]

Yeh ouch!

I belive the B5 Mod is only for pre-gold atm. (or some previous Version at least)
Unfortunealely I have deleted my pre-gold game (and the disk is lost in neverwhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )
You should have seen the number of quick fixes I did to get the game to run (and the Ai to work at all, mostly due to using to many points!, if they don't get "b5 'something' Race" they don't get almost any tech, including facilities & ships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).
Let alone adding all the needed extra lines! (what is the secondary bitmap used for in the ship_sizes.txt it always seems to be the same one in all the gold files I've seen?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Well it was actually fun running down all (well most I presume) of the game breakers.

Does anyone know where you mod the starting facilities? (EarthAlliance still seem to not get Homeworld Hubs)

[XenoTheMorph]

Does anybody know what the following techs should provide (in slightly less general terms than their names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

1. Unique Ship Class
2. Ancient Neurotech
3. Ship Automation

or if you don't know give an amusing guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Fyron]

Check the data files?

[Dawn Falcon]

Sorry for not getting back to you guys sooner. I was ill and then had PC problems.

I only have gold, but I made a working Version of the latest one (Fyron linked, anyway) for Gold. Some of the AI was a bit wonky, mind you. (TechnoMages didn't work at all, frex).

And I promply lost it when the secondary hard disk I had the SE4 install on died on me.. (grr, but I did need the extra 6GB. Sigh.)

I can and will get round to recreating it, but I'm not sure when I'll be broadband access to HOST it, given I'm going back to Salford Uni and a new shared house next weekend. Sigh.

Still, it mostly worked http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[grumbler]

For my own mod, I did the following:

1. Unique Ship Class: I created a destroyer, cruiser, and battleship/dreadnought that had 1, 2, and 3 self-repair points each. Carriers had some extra launch capacity, and transports/colony ships had extra cargo capacity.

2. Ancient Neurotech: I created a new research facility series with (eventually) ancient-like research facilities.

3. Ship Automation: I just introduced the SE4 series of ship automation capabilities (autopilot and then central computer).

Still have found no use for the Great Machine! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But it is great chrome!

Still working on things like Centauri Mega-weapons and the like.
Originally posted by XenoTheMorph:
Does anybody know what the following techs should provide (in slightly less general terms than their names http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

1. Unique Ship Class
2. Ancient Neurotech
3. Ship Automation

or if you don't know give an amusing guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[grumbler]

And yes, one of the first things you need to do is seek out and destroy all "natural merchant" racial traits, since they mean that the homeworld hub isn't awarded, and that is deadly.

I replace it with "lucky" myself.

[Fyron]

Why not replace it with something useful?

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Why not replace it with something useful?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">'Cause nobody starts with "Lucky" and the cost is the same.

All the other 1000 points traits (except maybe "mechanoids") are already assigned to at least one race that has "natural merchants" as I recall.

[Fyron]

There are a lot of 1000 point traits. It would be more beneficial to just increase the characteristic bonuses the race has than giving them Lucky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
There are a lot of 1000 point traits. It would be more beneficial to just increase the characteristic bonuses the race has than giving them Lucky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, no doubt. I just used the simplist solution, not the "best."

If you really want to have the system make sense, you have to re-write a few things. If you want to make it work in the shortest time, use the "grumbler solution!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Jamorobo]

Hello all

well it's been 4 months since i Last posted about the b5 mod. Infact i haven't seen anything on it's development in that time. (Damn those A-levels and summer job and sorting the forms out for uni!)

Hopefully you still remember me.

Right whats happend then in all this time, has there actually been any complete updates to the mod or are we still stuck at squre one? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

Square one... the mod team sort of dissolved after Val dissapeared the Last time. Some people (such as Timstone) are working (slowly) on other Versions of the mod, but no real work has been done to update the Val-created mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[grumbler]

I really think we need another forum to post the mods we want others to look at.

The game I am playing right now is heavily modded, for my own amusement, but frankly I don't want to go through the hoops needed here to post them, because you cannot keep track of them with the non-descriptive names.

Anyone have suggestions? I think this is the best place to keep all comments (despite the really awkward format) but not the best place to keep the mod suggestions (i.e the files).

[ September 17, 2003, 01:32: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Fyron]

I might be able to set something up on SpaceEmpires.net (http://www.spaceempires.net).

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I might be able to set something up on SpaceEmpires.net (http://www.spaceempires.net).<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good. I have signed up.

When mods become somewhat "official" we can post them here, but what I would like is someplace to post just bits of a mod so others can see/comment-on/playtest them.

[ September 18, 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: grumbler ]

[Atrocities]

What ever happend to VAL? He started this thread, a monster thread by all rights, and poof, he dissappeared. Where in the hell did he go?

[Timstone]

Some people (such as Timstone) are working (slowly)

Sorry people. I'm currently busy designing a complete production line for ceramic heaters. Unfortunately it's taking up quite some time (like work always does). But after the message of Grumbler on this thread, I started actively working on the next Version of The Mod again. I must admit that all the work, my relation and the like took a bit too much time. It really mean I could play the games I wanted anymore. But with a new way of living (less work, hehe) I can do all the things I would like to do and contiue work on The Mod.

*Croud goes wild!* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So thanks again for the cheers and little Messages I got from several persons. I really appreciate it.

Oh, how would you all feel about three small pics of transports I made earlier? I decided I couldn't implement them in a particular race, so they're left overs. If you all are curious enough I'll post them. Grumbler might have seen them already, I'm not sure.

[Fyron]

So I was going to install the File Attachment mod for phpBB on my site, but it says it does not support Nuke Portal sites. :cry: Looks like an alternative will need to be found...

I could always have the files emailed to me and I could post them manually...

[Swordsman]

Hi all.

I'm a new convert to SE4, having played Stars! intermittently for the Last few years. As an avid fan of B5, I've been quite keen to get my grubby little hands on the excellent B5 mod (thanks to all who made it possible) to use with SE4 Gold 1.84. Having seen some of the problems people have been having in this thread, I decided to do some testing, and heres the results for all it's worth.

Firstly heres the downloads I was trying:

* Original 4 Set - B5ModCore30, B5Mod_Update31, B5Mod_Update32, B5Mod_Update33 from Rambie's SE4 Shipyards (http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web_Files.htm) installed in that order.
* Original 5 Set - B5ModCore30, B5ModData30, B5Mod_Update31, B5Mod_Update32, B5Mod_Update33 from Rambie's SE4 Shipyards (http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web_Files.htm) installed in that order.
* Compilation Set - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1052175132.zip Post by Imperator Fyron 2 Sep 03
* Additional Files - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055128545.zip & http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1055690978.zip Post by FMMonty 4 Aug 03
* Gold Fixes - http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1022962690.zip Post by PDF 1 Jun 02

I tried installing these in various combinations and heres what I got:

Original 4 Set Only - Errors in Settings.txt on load, can only Quit Game.
Original 4 set & Additional Files - Ok load, AI errors for EA only (see below).
Original 4 Set & Additional Files & Gold Fixes - Seems to work OK!
Original 4 Set & Gold Fixes - Loads ok, but game crashes when reading AI!

Original 5 Set Only - Errors in Settings.txt on load, can only Quit Game.
Original 5 set & Additional Files - Ok load, AI errors in all races (see below).
Original 5 Set & Additional Files & Gold Fixes - Seems to work OK!
Original 5 Set & Gold Fixes - Seems to work OK!

Compilation Set Only - Errors in Settings.txt on load, can only Quit Game.
Compilation Set & Additional Files - Ok load, AI errors in all races (see below).
Compilation Set & Additional Files & Gold Fixes - Seems to work OK!
Compilation Set & Gold Fixes - Seems to work OK!

AI Settings Errors:

During load and after end turn - Could not find field x in record "Settings" for the following:

Ships don't move through minefields
Ships don't move through restricted systems
Clear orders on encounter enemy
Clear orders on encounter all
Percentage of total satellites to keep as planetary cargo
Percentage of total drones to keep as planetary cargo
Number Of Anti-Ship Drones Per Target
Number Of Anti-Planet Drones Per Target
Maximum Anti-Ship Drone Target System Distance
Maximum Anti-Planet Drone Target System Distance

After end turn - Could not find field x in record "Fleet Settings" for the following:

Percentage of Fleets to use for defense

I am unsure as to which downloads I should be using, which downloads contain what, and what impact they have on the game (being a newbie and all). I take it I should be using the Compilation Set, plus the Additional Files. I don't know about the Gold Fixes, it fixes the AI (seemingly), but also contains Components.txt, QuadrantTypes.txt, Settings.txt, and VehicleSize.txt, so I don't know what else it is changing, and it's probably a little old. Also note that I only started the game, and ended a turn to see what happens, I haven't got around to play testing yet.

If sensible values were entered for those missing in the AI files, would this be fine? I assume the only drawback would be that the AI would not know to use drones (being a new feature in SE4 Gold)? Personally I wouldn't mind being fair to the AI and not using drones either if that meant I could use the mod.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Alex

[oleg]

All these error Messages indicate you have classic Babylon5 mod. It will not work with Gold-SE. You need the Gold Babylon5 Version. Check again the dowbnload sites. Some should have Gold-Bab5.

[Swordsman]

I've had a look around, but can't seem to find anything yet.

Forgive my ignorance, but it wouldn't just be a matter of adding the neccessary entries in the AI files?

[Fyron]

And making a lot of changes to several other files too. For instance, the word "drone" has to be added to a lot of vehicle allowed and targetting type entries in Components.txt. But, that can be taken care of in seconds with find-replace all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You will also need to add a Drone Attack strategy to all AI strategy files, as well as the DefaultStrategies.txt file in the Data folder.

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Swordsman:
I've had a look around, but can't seem to find anything yet.

Forgive my ignorance, but it wouldn't just be a matter of adding the neccessary entries in the AI files?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are more than just a few entries needed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I am going to try to get my B5 Gold Version (not definative, but at least working) published somewhere. Right now, I cannot get my cheapass Earthlink account to upload files except with password protection.

The required mod is only 1.7 GB (given that you have everything else) but I cannot seem to hang it anywhere that will make it available.

[Swordsman]

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions.

I added the entries in the AI files so there were no errors. Playing it however the 2 neutral (I think) races I found hadn't built any ships, and I was only getting 1 of each resource per % of trade alliance, so I guess things aren't working quite right. I think I will just have to play a bit more, have a look at some modding tutorials, and try to figure it all out.

I did like how the number of engines required to make a ship move changed depending on the size, and number of population really does matter with production now.

[Swordsman]

That would be greatly appreciated if you could manage it grumbler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[grumbler]

IF, I am emailing you the file. Maybe you can either test it or have someone who has Gold test it (it works for me, but that tells me nothing).

Note that this is all unofficial. I have changed the components (especially engines and fighter components) significantly, the facilities majorly, and the Ai somewhat. Users will also find results for Ancient Neurotech and Unique Ship Class that are purely experimental - I haven't finished games with them myself.

[Swordsman]

You did mean MB not GB didn't you?

I have 1.84 Gold, and wouldn't mind testing, and could possibly convince a friend. However I don't know if we'd be experienced enough players to be able to pick out every problem that we should.

Originally posted by grumbler:
IF, I am emailing you the file. Maybe you can either test it or have someone who has Gold test it (it works for me, but that tells me nothing).

Note that this is all unofficial. I have changed the components (especially engines and fighter components) significantly, the facilities majorly, and the Ai somewhat. Users will also find results for Ancient Neurotech and Unique Ship Class that are purely experimental - I haven't finished games with them myself.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Swordsman:
You did mean MB not GB didn't you?

I have 1.84 Gold, and wouldn't mind testing, and could possibly convince a friend. However I don't know if we'd be experienced enough players to be able to pick out every problem that we should. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sorry, MB it is! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

I am not all that interested in feedback, per se, so much as I am in allowing Gold players to simply be able to play.

It struck me that there is no reason not to simply email you thr zip file (other than the time it takes for my Norton Antivirus to scan the zip, which is about 10 minutes), so I am sending you a copy as well.

Let me know what doesn't work.

[grumbler]

IF, I got a message that delivery failed. Send an email so that I can get an accurate email address.

Swordsman, my email says you got the file. Can you confirm?

[Swordsman]

Thanks grumbler, the file came through fine. I'll put it in tonight and give it a go.

I assume it will be fine extracting the files over top of Fyrons recent compilation?

[Swordsman]

Sorry, I'll just shut-up and read the readme.txt file now (what a novel idea!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Swordsman:
Sorry, I'll just shut-up and read the readme.txt file now (what a novel idea!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The readme is crude, so comments on that will also be welcome.

This seems all so hard since Da Path left the path! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by grumbler:
The readme is crude, so comments on that will also be welcome.

This seems all so hard since Da Path left the path! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm afraid Da Path was a little before my time, having only found this forum a few weeks ago.

I'm willing to help out where I can though, being inspired by the B5 DVD's http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[oleg]

Originally posted by grumbler:
IF, I got a message that delivery failed. Send an email so that I can get an accurate email address.

Swordsman, my email says you got the file. Can you confirm?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can you upload it on these forums ?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by grumbler:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Swordsman:
I've had a look around, but can't seem to find anything yet.

Forgive my ignorance, but it wouldn't just be a matter of adding the neccessary entries in the AI files?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are more than just a few entries needed! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I am going to try to get my B5 Gold Version (not definative, but at least working) published somewhere. Right now, I cannot get my cheapass Earthlink account to upload files except with password protection.

The required mod is only 1.7 GB (given that you have everything else) but I cannot seem to hang it anywhere that will make it available.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Go to the Mods/Scenarios forum (the first Category) on Intel forums and upload it there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

Originally posted by grumbler:
IF, I got a message that delivery failed. Send an email so that I can get an accurate email address.

Swordsman, my email says you got the file. Can you confirm?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hotmail does not allow file attachments larger than 1 MB... just upload to the forums. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[G-Machine]

Just wanted to say, that I am currently playing the game, I established this name so as to remain anonymous. However, I have invested a lot of my research points into developing the great machine technology. Unfortunately now that I have the technology, I can't use the g-machine weapon on the g-machine weapons platform. The only time the weapon shows up is when i am creating a ship. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Could we maybe send out a tiny little patch to all the members of the game, to fix this little glitch.
Thanks