Babylon 5 Mod

[Val]

I've been talking with Rambie, Atomannj and 2 other people (not on the thread yet) about putting together a Bab5 Mod for SE IV. So far we have some good shipsets for the EA, Narn, Centauri, Vorlons and League of Non-Aligned Worlds. I've also seen some decent Minbari and Shadow sets.

I'm in the process of setting up the map for the B5 universe, though it is taking me some time to create the solar systems.

We are also talking about setting up a tech tree that has a B5 flavor to it, which could be a daunting task as well. Perhaphs with racial specific techs for the different races to keep certain techs "off limits".

Ideas and what y'all would like to see are also most welcome.

If there is anyone interested, or anyone else that has done some B5 Mod work (or would like to), please let us know.

Val

[Rambie]

Val,

Sounds great, I'm in the process in posting all the released B5 races on my site... I need to get permission from all the developers first.

A new Version of the EA set will be released as well.



------------------
Rambie
www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm

[Val]

I heard from atomannj through E*Mail that it was ok to post his Centauri, LoNAW and Vorlon ship sets.

[thorfrog]

Hey guys! Please feel free to modify & post these ships sets.

[Rambie]

Thanks, I'll try and get all the B5 shipsets uploaded onto my site by next weekend.

I've been working on a new B5 themed SE4 Intro screen for the Mod... it's starting to look good.



------------------
Rambie
www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm

[zircher]

One of the perks to making ship sets for the lesser known races is that you can let your imagination run wild and there is no 'canon' material to say that you're wrong.*

Is there any race that matches such in your planned B5 mod?
--
TAZ

[Val]

In a quick headcount on the map I am working on I found 42 different races, a good number of which I haven't seen much (if any) material on. I'm working on an Excel spreadsheet listing the different races, their respective age (Ancients, Mid-Born, Young), if there is background info and if anyone has made a shipset yet.

This doesn't even count all the Nomadic, Pirate and Independent Groups that could have their own ship sets.

[Rambie]

zircher,

If you'd, or know anyone who would, like to make a set for any B5 race that'd be great!


------------------
Rambie
www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm

[zircher]

I'm entertaining the idea or at least the art work side of the equation. (No experience in building AI files, yet.)

The Fire on the Suns PBEM game that I'm currently playing in is based on the B5 universe. My two allies in the 'Centauri Coalition' are the Gaim and the Hyach. Making up a fleet for either of them would be a two birds with one stone thing. :-)

The Gaim player is also a Lightwave user so that's got some potential there as well. I'll bounce the idea off of them and see if they'd be interested in helping me.
--
TAZ

[Rambie]

I'd love to see the Gaim, or the Hyach, in the MOD! I haven't written an AI yet, Mephisto did a great job on the EA set and maybe he'd be willing to help out.

I think we'd all like to see any many races in the MOD as possible, so ask your friend who'd good at Lightwave. I've got some Drazi and Vree models that I could send him if he's interested in making any ship sets.



------------------
Rambie
www.xmission.com/~rstulce/SE4-Index.htm

[zircher]

I think I'll give the Hyach a go. Both Steve and Mike are creative, if terribly slow, modellers. Regular Hyach Posts might motivate Mike (the LW user) to post more Gaim designs.

Check out http://zircher.iwarp.com/fots_3d/fotsb5.htm to see what his vision of the Gaim is. [Might be difficult to make an SE4 race set out of them.] FYI, all the models are built from scratch with the exception of the Narn Frazi which was taken from a mesh and retextured. Won't be seeing much more of the Narn in the gallery, by turn three all of their colonies are blockaded and major industries smashed. It's good to be the Emperor. :-)
--
TAZ

[Master Belisarius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rambie:
I'd love to see the Gaim, or the Hyach, in the MOD! I haven't written an AI yet, Mephisto did a great job on the EA set and maybe he'd be willing to help out.

I think we'd all like to see any many races in the MOD as possible, so ask your friend who'd good at Lightwave. I've got some Drazi and Vree models that I could send him if he's interested in making any ship sets.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If somebody need/want AI files for aggressive Races with Organic and/or Temporal habilities, I would love to fit the Aquilaeian/Pyrochette files for the B5 mod.

I can't commit a full new AI (I'm lack of time), but as I said, could fit the current AI files for the mod.

[ZeroAdunn]

Man I love those images, I love B5 too. I made all the races for SEIII but sadly I have very poor 3D skills and a crapy 3d modler/renderer.

Anyone got any of these shipsets ready? I'm dying to download them!

Rambie there are some problems with your shipset, The Hyperion (what class is that ship anyways?) is actually smaller than the Nova class destroyer. And a whitestar is smaller than The Hyperion. The ShadOmega (omega-X whatever) is the same size as the Omega.

Thats all....

[thorfrog]

This is great to see this much interest!

[Val]

It would be great to get as many races defined as possible, even if someone only wants/has time/is able to do the 3d rendering, I'm sure we can find people that are interested in doing the AI. Not to mention Master Belisarius' excellent AIs that could be adapted over to the B5 Mod. I don't think there are many temporal races in B5, but that doesn't mean a new race couldn't be added or one of the lesser defined ones could be used.

If we can get an idea as to who wants to do what race, then we can hopefully avoid double work and get to a finished Mod that much quicker.

Also, I have finished the basic map (attached B5.map) for the B5 universe Mod. I based it on the Agent's of Gaming Bab5 Wars game map.

I still need to fill out the systems with planets and I am trying to keep with the B5 history (with habitable planets where they mention them). Does anyone know if there is a way to generate random solar systems within a map that is already created?

As of right now I have all the worm holes 'stacked' in each system to be more like the jump gates in B5. What I would really like to do is put a delay on the jump points. Does anyone know if this is possible? Would we be able to add an effect/ability like like "Warp Point - Jump Delay"?

[ZeroAdunn]

Sadly there is no way you can generate systems within in the map editor.

Here is one of my favorite sites for b5 ship info: <A HREF="http://hyperspace.isnust started talking about the tech/components. That is probably going to be the most time consuming part, and the part we would need the most help with. On the brighter side it will be the easiest one to integrate multiple works into a single file. We are probably going for racial specific tech trees to keep certain techs in certain races hands alone, so there isn't a Drazi player cruising around with a Vorlon Lightning Cannon.


Zircher:

Love the Hyach ship, really neat style! The only thing I have about the Hyach is a blurb from B5 Wars and a ship sheet silhouette. It is a battle cruiser and features a spinal mounted laser. If you want it, let me know. Looking forward to seeing the final product!

[zircher]

&gt; Love the Hyach ship, really neat style!

Thanks.

&gt; The only thing I have about the Hyach is a
&gt; blurb from B5 Wars and a ship sheet
&gt; silhouette. It is a battle cruiser and
&gt; features a spinal mounted laser. If you
&gt; want it, let me know. Looking forward to
&gt; seeing the final product!

I'm undecided as to whether I consider AoG's stuff usuable or not. [Leaves out comments about butchered game mechanics and spitting on people.] I've only see one picture and I'm not impressed. On the other hand, Max Blagg is a member of the FOTS_3D group, I do like his work, and he did design some of AoG's models (unfortunately not the Hyach.)

I might give the dripping snot cruisers a try. But, I saw nothing in the show that backs up that particular technology. Need to do more research. Anyone got episode 95, Secrets of the Soul, on tape? Any description (or screen shots) of Hyach technology would be appreciated.
--
TAZ


[My Bad, gave credit to the wrong person.]

[This message has been edited by zircher (edited 14 November 2001).]

[thorfrog]

How about we put together a list of weapon systems to be included for this B5 mod. Basic start of the tech tree.

General Tech - tech open to all races
--------------------------------------
Laser Weapons-
-Light Laser cannons (long reload, strong)
-Heavy Laser cannons (Long reload, very strong)
-Lite/Heavy pulse lasers (to hit bonus)
-L/H particle lasers (quicker reload)

Missiles-
-Small & Large missile types
-Fusion
-Nuclear

Planetary Bombardment
-Mass drivers (Political backlash penalty)

Plasma (armor penetration)
-torpedo
-cannons (long reload)

Anti-matter
-cannon

Earth Alliance
-------------------------------
Shields
-Defense Grid Energy Projectors (weak d

Projectile
-Railguns (long range)

Centauri
---------------------------------
Particle
-Twin Particle arrays (to hit bonus)

Ion
-Ion Cannons
-Gravimetric Defense Grid

Narn
---------------------------------
-Energy Mine (fighter defense, small, to hit bonus)

Defense shield
-Electromagnetic Defenses

Minbari
-----------------------------------
Gravitic
-Gravitic Neutron Cannons (shield piercing, long reload)
-Gravitic Fusion Beam Cannons (shield piercing)

Neutron
-Cannons (shield piercing)

-Minbari Stealth Device
-Defense Shield Grid

Shadows
---------------------------------
Slicer Beams (shield piercing, armor piercing)
Jump Point Disrupter
Bio-Organic armored hull
Shadow Shields (phased shields)
Tractor Beams
Phased Hyperspace Cloaking Dev
Death Cloud

Vorlon
----------------------------------
Vorlon Shields (phased shields)
Tractor Beams
Vorlon Sensor Jammers
Super Death Ray (planet destroying)
Death Ray Cannons (high damage,sp,ap,long reload)
Flame Beams (shield piercing)
Lightning Guns (armor piercing)

[Val]

Looks like a good start for the tech lists. We also have to remember to add all the non-military techs that made the B5 universe what it is.

Not sure if this is a given or not, but we should have the techs have different levels (just like in SE4) to represent a 'prototype' Heavy Laser as well as an 'advanced' model Heavy Laser.

[thorfrog]

I like the idea of proto type and advanced. I figured levels were a given.

Additional tech would be like gravity drives, artificial gravity, rotating sections, self repair units, ect.

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Missiles-
-Small & Large missile types
-Fusion
-Nuclear<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, small & large chemical warheads (chemical = C4 style blam, not poison).
Then fission warheads, then fusion warheads, then maybe antimatter warheads.
'Cause nuclear includes Fusion, you know http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

--------------------

Just to clarify something, atomannj:
What do you mean by shields?

Nothing like original SE4, I hope.

"Electromagnetic Defenses" would be ECM
"Gravimetric Defense Grid" would be a crystalline effect (subtract damage by slowing the projectile)
Shadow ships' defenses are probably best modeled by a large emmissive armor ability (if it ever gets fixed), or crystalline in the meantime.

----------------------

There are more than enough ways to make defenses that don't require a shield to be worn down before the ship is damaged.

1) Defense % bonus. (ECM style)
- lots of varieties possible, most included in standard SE4, but they could be beefed up and spread out in the tech tree

2) Classic armor.
- I'd reccommend making beam weapons skip armor, since they put a tiny hole in the armor, then gut your ship http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif
- Kinetic and plasma weapons can be non-armor skipping, since they just bLast the surface of the ship to bits.

3) Emissive armor.
- unfortunately, this ability has not been fixed, but the effect can be modeled using the crystalline armor ability.
- Be sure to make it a "one-per-vehicle" thing, or your players will build invulnerable ships
- great for ships like the shadows, who can absorb one solid hit for an unlimited time, but is wiped out by any more than that.
Given the crytalline ability, and the minimum required shield points to support that crys ability, it will work great, ignoring weak hits.

4) Internal "armor"
- by making tough, but inert components, you can simulate a B5 type armor.
In this case, most shots do some internal damage, but not the full amount. The more armor added, the smaller the chance that an internal component will be lost.
In order to punch through all that armor, beam weapons simply do LOTS of damage.
A ship peppered by small hits will occasionally lose a critical component, and it could happen at any time.
A beam weapon would slice off perhaps 1/6th of the ship, depending on size, instantly crippling the ship.

5) Organic Armor.
- As seen in SE4, also potential use combined with another type of armor

6) Organic internals.
- make all components (not armor) regenerate, but keep the values very small (zero or one for most).
-When designing a ship, place components in the order you wish your damage control teams to work. eg: bridge first, then one weapon, then sensors, then one lifesupport, then point-defense...
The organic regen will happen in that order.
- make Damage Control Team component, with a large value for OA.
- a cruiser with DCTs for 30 OA regen per turn can repair three minor (10 hitpoint)components per turn (Eg. emergency patch an atmosphere leak (lifesupport component)), or can fix a light weapon in 3 combat turns (90 hitpoints).
All values are subject to scaling!

---------------------

From what I've seen of B5, everybody maxes out on type 1 defenses. Mainly, since once you are hit, you are dead meat.
Type 6 is pretty weak for most ships, but does occur according to plot http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif Ships which are holed early, and then given lots of time alone could jury-rig a gun to fire potshots, for example.
Type 4 armor is good, since fighters can pop lots of shots into the big ships to wear them down, and the big ships can slice each other in two. Also, there is a little bit of Type 3 in every armor. The old ships have very low amounts, but they can stop small arms without suffering significant damage. The older races have moderate ability values, and the shadows & vorlons have lots.

[Val]

SJ has a lot of good points that should get the tech going in the right direction. I also agree with the assessment on B5 and shields.

Just for fun, I tossed all the B5 systems into a SystemNames.txt file - the same systems from the map posted earlier. I also added the EmpireTypes and Names and added some default Colony and Design types. This was all to add to the feel of the eventual B5 mod.

Enjoy http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 17 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 17 November 2001).]

[zircher]

A good friend just sent me a couple of B5W books. As depressing as it may be, JMS likes AoG, so I guess I'll give AoG's Version of the Hyach a try.
--
TAZ

Here's the current Version:

http://zircher.iwarp.com/fots_3d/images/hyach_test2.jpg

Yea or nay, comments?

[This message has been edited by zircher (edited 17 November 2001).]

[zircher]

Updated fleet sheet for the Hyach, over the half way point in the models department.
--
TAZ

[chewy027]

nice zircher. i think i see some parts in there from doga http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon12.gif

[tesco samoa]

Correct me if I am wrong

but wasn't it just the Centauri who used Mass Drivers.

( Loved that esp. )

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

[ZeroAdunn]

Everyone had massdrivers, just nobody would use them because it was such a devestating weapon.

[tesco samoa]

Was this link ever mentioned
http://www.tp2b.de

Mass drivers use asteroids freely available in space, accelerated and
fired into a planetary atmosphere.

Very cool weapon. I think I would limit it to just the centari. For show to game sake

http://www.alphaomega.fr/contenu/cartes/bab5/extall/ext.htm

has a nice list of events for the bab5 universe.

IF you want to follow the french (in the other parts of this site)just go to this site http://www.rahul.net/lai/temain.html and pick your engine if you cannot read fr.

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

[tesco samoa]

http://b5.sdvc.uwyo.edu/bab5/b5-m.html

another bab5 link. sound files.

Yea I know. Every BAB5 geek flocked to SE.

So to the 20 of us.

We found our home.

HAHHAHA

------------------
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

[zircher]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it just the Centauri who used Mass Drivers.
( Loved that esp. )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes they do (if you're referring to the Hyach vessels, they are keen on big spinal lasers.)

In the FOTS:B5 game that play, the Gaim will be landing troops on Narn next turn. I plan on using them as forward observers so I (the Centauri player) can go bunker busting with mass drivers. Easy as shooting Narns in a pit... ;-)
--
TAZ

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>bunker busting with mass drivers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bunker busting, you say?
Aren't mass drivers more of a Nuke 'em to glass weapon, without all the radioactive fallout?
I suppose it really depends on the size, but it shouldn't be too hard to find a continent-buster rock, especially if you've got a powerful driver and are approaching on the "downhill" solar slope. You'd be glassing whole provinces at a time even with the more moderate rocks.

If you were just trying to destroy major cities and military bases, a capital ship laser (or fleet thereof) would have done the job conventionally, though it would take longer.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 21 November 2001).]

[Phoenix-D]

Well, if you nuke em to glass, you gennerally get the bunker too.. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[oleg]

I uploaded a new Version of Vorlon ship set by Atomanj and myself. It is in Space empires/races section. I think it looks a little bit better now but certainly is still far from perfect.

Cheers, Oleg.

[zircher]

Just using the mass drivers as pea shooters to wipe out the stubborn parts of the Narn resistance without destroying their economy or biosphere. Glassing them from orbit is easy, controlling their planet and making them a productive member of society is the tricky part. :-)
--
TAZ

[Suicide Junkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Just using the mass drivers as pea shooters to wipe out the stubborn parts of the Narn resistance without destroying their economy or biosphere. Glassing them from orbit is easy, controlling their planet and making them a productive member of society is the tricky part. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Prolonged use of unconventional weapons could be very detrimental to your galactic image, (not that its a very good one at the moment).
Couldn't you just use the main guns on your ships to bLast deep holes in the bunkers? Unless they're very very deep, or under a good deal of water, in which case use depth charges of some sort, or seal 'em off underground by burying the entrances under rubble.
Very few should require a mass driver to destroy.

[Val]

From reading some of the B5 history stuff, it looks like the Dilgar also used the Mass Drivers during their conquest.

[tesco samoa]

Dilgar EH.

Did not know that.

Was that in the books ???

[Val]

If I remember correctly, it was in some of the Agents of Gaming history on the Dilgar. They mentioned that the only two races that used the Mass Drivers in 'recent' history were the Centauri and the Dilgar. They also mentioned somewhere that the Dilgar had used Mass Drivers to pummel the Giam homeworld as a precursor to a landing troops, though it did them little good.

[zircher]

The B5W Ships of the Fleet book is good for that kind of trivia.

The turn 5 invasion of Narn failed with the bloody destruction of both invaders and defenders (both Narn and Gaim are wicked ground fighters.) The only survivors were the Centauri in high orbit that pounded the life out of the surviving Narn military units that the Gaim had exposed. Forty six battalians plus a slew of Centauri gunboats and fighters got wiped out.

As the Emperor, I felt compelled to issue an ultimatum demanding the total surrender of Narn or the fleet will start destroying civilian targets. I have no problem killing a billion Narns to honor the Gaim losses. Of course, the final decision lies with the Narn government and its people.

On the just for fun side, the Dilgar player sent me a note saying that they thought the ultimatum was 'justifiable'. :-)

Due to a massive three day system updgrade at work, I haven't had the time or energy to do more Hyach models, but I plan to work on them this week.
--
TAZ

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: zircher ]</p>

[Val]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
http://b5.sdvc.uwyo.edu/bab5/b5-m.html

another bab5 link. sound files.

Yea I know. Every BAB5 geek flocked to SE.

So to the 20 of us.

We found our home.

HAHHAHA

<hr></blockquote>


Thanks for all the great links, I downloaded some sounds to go with the components I'm working on and (although a little large) it sounds great!

I saw a preview of Rambie's title page for the B5 Project and it looks incredible!!!

Thanks to Oleg as well for E*Mailing me the Vorlon Shipset http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

By Thursday I should have an Excel sheet with all the various weapon types (have this part done already) and their damage values (almost done, want to add min/max and ranges).

I also made some adjustments in the Data files (Ramsie pointed out I had Minbari in twice and some other errors) and started a mod info file for modpicker crediting everyone who has been helping to date. I'm hoping to at least have a rough mod for us by the end of the year.

Until the upload file thing is fixed, please let me know if anyone wants any of this E*Mailed to them and I will try to keep up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Just wondering what you guys thought of my "defenses" post (previous page in thread).

If you want, I can make some example components that you could test in the SE4 simulator.
(Just generic weapons and some detail in defenses: engines, C&C, and the rest I won't touch yet. Just move the ships into range and start slugging it out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[Val]

SJ, the help would be more than welcome! I liked the armor ideas, but haven't gotten that far yet. I am still working on the weapons and trying to balance them out, right now I have about 110 different weapons (some just variant classes of the same - like Light/Medium/Heavy Lasers) and I haven't even started on the ballistic weapons yet (7 Different Mounts and 20 Different Missile/Torpedo types).

[President_Elect_Shang]

Have you read the Sci-Fi Crossover thread? I would love to take a look at what you have (the components.txt) so far. It would give me a BIG jump in the 1st draft I hope to get working on as soon as I get the blessings &lt;fingers crossed&gt;!

[Val]

Yeah, I'm trying to keep up with it, and trying to avoid double work. We are hoping to balance the weapons and components as we work on them, this way it will slide into the rest (the cross-over mod) a little easier.

Most of the components are still in Excel spreadsheets, but I am testing some this weekend (afraid that is the only time I have) and will be glad to send them to you.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>SJ, the help would be more than welcome! I liked the armor ideas, but haven't gotten that far yet. I am still working on the weapons and trying to balance them out, ...<hr></blockquote>The weapon balance will depend a lot on the defense system.

For one, every combat-repairable internal component must have one point of OA ability, or nothing works.
So, we need to scale up the hitpoints/damage of everything in order to keep the repair rates down to a reasonable level.
How many small, 10kt components could be repaired in one combat turn? How long should it take to patch together one of the guns in a defense turret, if it is actually possible?

The repairable list should include:
- lifesupport
- crew quarters
- supply storage (supplies over max at any time are still lost)
- cargo (same condition as above)
- sensors
- unit launch?
- aux con? (repair = putting out fires & whatnot?)
- tiny weapons?

Add up the number of the above that will be included in a typical ship, and multiply by the number of turns you require to repair an item. That's how many hitpoints the item must have, minimum.
We should also add some dedicated "Damage Control Teams", (20-60 ability points?) which do nothing but provide extra repairs.

[thorfrog]

We need to organize this mod a bit. We could get more done in less time. Let divide parts of this mod to different people. First we need a team lead. Then break down the the different parts of the mod.

-interface graphics
-Components
-mapping
-race AI (broken up by the races)
Race AI should have one for un-modded and modded races.
-sound effects and presentation

One more thing, someone should host a web page to co-ordinate this effort.

What do you all think?

[President_Elect_Shang]

I am for putting in support on the tech, I have become very good at working around problems like the repair issue etc and keeping the size of the unit down to a min. I hate having to create a weapon that does 200 pts damage becouse one component on an escort needs 200 to be blown to bits (for example).
As for the spreadsheet, send it on over. I work on the weekends so I can take a first look at night and let you know what I think of it. I still say I can produce a 1st draft by wed or thur (I do so love deadlines) and if I get the blessing to work on the Sci-Fi mod techs than that takes care of the problem of "balance" between the diffrent Groups (Star Wars, etc..)
As for a side note I have completed adjusting everything in the data file of my personal mod (no one else may like it). Now I just need to work on the AI (till then I will play test against myself) and would not mind if someone else wanted to take a look at it. I warn you now, it is very specialized to the StarFire game universe. Brave poeple only!

[Val]

I'd be happy to act as a coordinator for this, if nobody objects. I have already put together most of the stuff from eveyone and have been keeping it up to date as much as possible.

I know Ramsie has finished an opening screen shot for the mod (which looks fantastic) and is going to work up BMPs for Lose/HumnDead/Victory that will be more B5 oriented.

Atomannj and Oleg have been working on Vorlons, Shadows, Centauri and LNAW.

I can't remember who originally posted the Minbari, but I know Atomannj had reworked them.

Rambie has the EA and Narn.

Zircher is working on the Hyach and Gaim(I think).

I've taken some of the currently available stuff and started breaking down the LNAW into the various races (Brakiri, Drazi and Vree for now) and started a Raider race as well.

SJ and myself are starting to combine ideas on the components side. This is also being matched up with the Sci-Fi Crossover mod to make the tech balanced with the Star Trek/Star Wars (and thereby other SE IV) races. President Elect Shang has also offered his help (which will be gladly taken up).

I've asked Jourin if we can use his cultures.txt file in the mod (pretty well balanced) and I have already modified several of the other data files and started a Mod info file with a history.

I'm also working on the Map - creating all those systems is a real pain.

Tesco Samon pointed me in the right direction for the sound files.

Imperator Fyron offered his assistance with the AI.

Finally, Pheonix-D and Zero Adunn have expressed some interest as well.

Did I leave anyone out?

[thorfrog]

Ship sizes I think the dreadnought should be alot larger in ship space. And I think planet destroying weapons should be massive in size too. Not something that can eventually placed on a cruiser. I keep thinking on how the Vorlons and the Shadows would send these massive planet cracking ships. These things could bloack out the sun. They should be aleast the size of a starbase. Maybe rework the baseship. Or give the baseship a seperate model. What do you all think?

[ZeroAdunn]

Shadows didn't have a reall planet killer, their weapon was essentially a whole horde of missiles that burrowed into a planets core and released tons of crap onto the planet. The planet was still there, just seriously crapped on.

[ZeroAdunn]

Almost forgot, visit this website: http://hyperspace.isnnews.net/

See also http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm IT's pretty good for getting a good idea of what ships are armed with. I think it's mostly accurate.

[Val]

Y'all should check out the Non-Standard Hulls forum topic ( http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004185 ).

We were talking about adding several "new" ship classes to help standardize mods and ship sets. The "WorldShip" which we could use for these planet killers. Other types that were added include:

Scout - Smaller than an escort.
Corvette - Between Escort and Frigate.
DestroyerHeavy - Between destroyer and light cruiser.
CruiserHeavy - Between cruiser and battlecruiser.
DreadnoughtHeavy - Between Dreadnought and Baseship.
BaseShip - Very big base sized ship (Standard hull without standard image)
BaseShipHeavy - A larger Version of the baseship.
WorldShip - A gigantic ship which resembles a moon or planet.
ResourceShip - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
ResourceStation - A ship designed with resource production in mind.
CarrierTiny - Smaller than the light carrier
CarrierMassive - Bigger than the large carrier
WarStation - A base between BattleStation and StarBase
ColonyShipLarge - A Bigger Colony Ship
TransportTiny - Smaller than TransportSmall, and probably faster.
FighterHuge - Bigger than FighterLarge.
FighterMassive - Bigger than FighterHuge. Possibly a bomber.
TroopInfantry - Good old fashioned foot soldier (or tentacle soldier, wing soldier...)
TroopHuge - Like TroopLarge, but bigger.
Barge - A very big and slow ship, probably not designed for combat.

These give us quite a few different pictures to choose from and fill up. The Fighter Huge and Massive also allow us to incorporate the larger Centauri and Drazi fighters. TroopInfantry lets us incorporate the GROPOS foot troops. The other ships give us some good filler.

I'll try to have a VehicleSize.txt file with the various sizes available by next Tuesday. There was a really good one posted by Geoschmo (I think) that covers most of them and could save us some time.

[zircher]

I got the green light from the Fire on the Suns license owner to work on a multi-player tactical combat game. I'll finish up all the Hyach images and include all the DoGA stuff used to make them. But, I fear that I'll too busy minding my own ducks to do much more than that. Fortunately, the Gaim are know for salvaging or buying ships from other races, so some artwork can be touched up and re-used for them.
--
TAZ

[Val]

Zircher:

Congrats on the project, you'll have to keep us up to date (and in mind for playtesting perhaphs) on your project! Thanks for the work on the Hyach, can't wait to see the finished shipset http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[zircher]

Thanks, I'll do my best to not be a stranger.
Model wise, just got troops, platforms, and the drone to do. Of course, I'm being persnickity (is that a word or just a hold over from growing up in the midwest?) and mulling over several design ideas for these units. For some reason, I'm drawn to funky gun shields...

BTW, are we allowed to tap into existing artwork and images for the racial pic? Faces are not my specialty.
--
TAZ

[Val]

I think most of the racial images are stock photos, so I don't see any reason not to.

Funky gun shields? Like a riot shield over the gun barrel to help protect the user?

[zircher]

Exactly. Anglular shields, hemispherical shields, bat winged beasts. Haven't found that one design that says, "I'm a Hyach hover vehicle." Probably because I can't imagine the Hyach getting involved in a groundwar. Time to stretch the imagination. :-)

Ding. I should to try a knock off of the Martian War Machine from the War of the Worlds movie.
--
TAZ

[zircher]

Finially got to spend some quality time on the computer and finish the Hyach graphics. I'll post them in the mod section as well as the DoGA L3 models used to make them.

Please take the time to review them. (Ack! Posted them in the wrong mod thread, corrected.)
--
TAZ

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: zircher ]</p>

[ZeroAdunn]

Hey Zircher, just swung by your website, some interesting stuff. I couldn't seem to find any information about the game itself though.

[zircher]

"Hey Zircher, just swung by your website, some interesting stuff. I couldn't seem to find any information about the game itself though."

I have a different site for my game dev stuff.

http://www.geocities.com/tzircher

Of course, there isn't much there yet as I just started revamping the site. Currently working on the game concept doc and game design doc. You can find a rough draft of the GCD at:

http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gcd.htm

While the words are pretty much in place, the pictures are just place holders for later game art. My Version of the Hyach vessels might make an appearance once I file off the serial numbers. :-)

The links to the original Fire on the Suns site and WildTangent might be more educational than my site until it gets up to speed.
--
TAZ

[Val]

The Hyach shipset is great!! Excellent job!! How long did it take (roughly)?

[zircher]

"The Hyach shipset is great!! Excellent job!! How long did it take (roughly)?"

Thanks, always good to get an outside opinion.

Looking at the date/time stamps, it took four days. Figure about 20 hours to do the models and another 4 or so to render/assemble all the images in the right sizes and mask test them.

That's the outside estimate, being married with children cuts into any project with all the little distractions. :-) You can easily build a set over the course of a weekend since one model 'evolves' from the next, much faster than building 30 unrelated models.

DoGA CGA is really good for quick modelling and Lesson 3 (L3) in the series is really good with textures and materials. I'm tempted to make a 1024x768 glory shot of the fleet to show off the details that are missing from the portraits and icons.
--
TAZ

[Val]

That's heartening to hear that it would only take about a weekend, though with my 3D modeling ability I might be able to stretch that into the better part of a month http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I've been continuing work on our Mod – adding ShipSets y’all have worked up (including the Hyach), Ramsie’s Intro pic and edited data files (listed below).

Here’s what I have for history so far:

1.49.06 - Added Hyach ShipSet

1.49.05 - Added new EmperorNames, EmperorTitles, DefaultColonyTypes, DefaultDesignTypes, EmpireNames. Editted CompEnhancement.txt to give Weapon Platforms and Satellites greater ranges and added several new mounts. Changed VehicleSize.txt to meet new ShipSet standards. Editted TechArea.txt to accomodate editted VehicleSize.txt file. Working on Breaching Pods and Shuttles (Cargo and Boarding Parties for Fighter class ships).

1.49.04 - Fixed some discrepancies in EmpireNames.txt and EmpireType.txt files. Editted EmperorTitles.txt and EmperorNames.txt. Put in updated Vorlon shipset. Added Culture Mod (by Joe Skarupinski, Jourin. v.1.0) to Mod for more balanced cultures.

1.49.03 - Editted Settings.txt : Changed Maximum Number of Systems to 200, Maximum Trade to 40, Nuber of Quick Start Styles to 7. Added in title screen for B5 Project. Still need to change Lose.bmp, HumnDead.bmp, Victory.bmp and add additional races to quick start styles.

1.49.02 - Added a Babylon 5 map. Changed the SystemNames.txt file to have all B5 systems found on Babylon 5 map. Editted EmpireTypes.txt and EmpireNames.txt to include all the B5 empires.

1.49.01 - Compiled all currently available B5 races into a single zip.

A few notes on the above: though the VehicleSize.txt file has been updated to include the full range of ships talked about in the Variant Hull thread, as of yet we don’t have any specific artwork for these new sizes. So, for the time being the file uses duplicate pics for the various classes and there is a second file called VehicleSize2.txt that is ready to roll once we have the new pics. Also, Breaching Pods, Shuttles, Assault Shuttles and the Planet Killer are really not all that useful without the tech that will be added to the Components. As of right now I can’t get cargo or boarding parties to work on fighter class ships (and don’t think it’s possible), but I will see if anyone knows how. There is an Excel file in the History folder on the mod that has a comparison of the different ship classes.

I can post this mod in it’s current unfinished state if anyone would like (it’s about 9.5 Megs – or only 1.5 without all the Ship and Intro page Art). It is a working Mod, it just doesn’t have any of the B5 tech or sounds as of yet and I am still plugging away at the map in my spare time.

I also want to take a vote on if we should stick to the standard SE IV ship movement or use the more Newtonian form SJ used in P&N (with his permission) or something else altogether.

[zircher]

"I also want to take a vote on if we should stick to the standard SE IV ship movement or use the more Newtonian form SJ used in P&N (with his permission) or something else altogether."

It it an all or nothing conVersion? In the B5 universe we, see both forms of movement. Older races like the Centauri, Hyach, and Mimbari use gravitic drives (normal SE4 movement) while younger races like the EA use a Newtonian system.

If it is all or nothing, we can always give the older races exceptional movement capabilities to represent gravitic technology.
--
TAZ

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: zircher ]</p>

[Val]

I believe we can represent that in a couple different ways:

1) As a "racial" ability
2) As a different type of Component drive limited to races with Gravitic drives or such.
3) Adding a list of ships to the VehicleSize.txt file with racial specific requirements. (I want to use this Last way to represent the Drazi Super Heavy Fighters and Vree Ultra Light Fighters.)

I guess the main root of the question is: Do we want bigger ships to need to take up more space for engines?

[thorfrog]

Val,

Your the man. Your doing a great job.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Older races like the Centauri, Hyach, and Mimbari use gravitic drives (normal SE4 movement) while younger races like the EA use a Newtonian system.<hr></blockquote> Just because you use a gravitic drive dosen't really mean you're not following the laws of physics.
If you're using a gravity gradient to accelerate your reaction mass, you could perhaps get better fuel efficiency and higher thrust per KT of engine, but you'd still need thrust to accelerate.
Any ship that accelerates has to accelerate something else the other way in order to conserve momentum.

The quasi-newtonian propulsion is for systems where a bigger ship needs bigger (or more) engines.
This is the case in B5 even minbari ships, since the engines on thier biggest ships take up about the same fraction of the hull as on their littler ships. We can assume a little bit of "buy in bulk" efficiency improvements, too, so scaled up engines are overall smaller than the pile of smaller engines needed to do the same job.

There are so many advantages to QNP, including a huge variety of useful ship designs (ie. there is a useful design that dosen't max-out on engines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) Slow & powerful, or fast and weak, your choice.

[Val]

Atomannj - Thanks for the compliment, but this Mod wouldn't be going anywhere without everyone who has been helping, especially ShipSet designers such as yourself, Oleg, Ramsie and Zircher.

I'm more inclined to lean towards the Q-N style of engines for many of the reason SJ had mentioned, plus we can easily have Gravitic engines (and the Shadows form of propulsion) give other bonuses, such as a proportionally higher speed to help represent the agility of a whitestar over a Hyperion.

Also, is anyone interested in working up an AI for the Hyach? Anyone interested in rounding out a Drazi, Vree or Brakiri (or another race altogether) ShipSet? Should we start work on "filling-in" the other ship classes on the existing shipsets (eg: Scouts, Corvettes)?

Thanks!

[tesco samoa]

I would like to place a vote for the Q-N engines.

Looks like a lot of stuff has been done. Looks good. ( I am just amazed at what has happened here with this game, Its like a year end rush http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Later.

[thorfrog]

Sure, sounds good to me.

[Val]

Ok, unless I hear otherwise, I am going to make the change to the VehicleSize.txt to require 1 engine per 50 tons of ship to move a ship 1 space. I will save a second VehicleSize file with the old SE IV style in it for those that prefer the 1 to 1 ratio.

Does anyone want me to post what we have so far for group review? It is playable, but like I said, it does not yet have any specialized B5 tech yet.

Is anyone interested in rendering the components (or at least some of them)?

What else would everyone like to see added to this?

[Val]

Ok, I finished the VehicleSize file and gave most of the ships a 50 ton to 1 thrust/engine value, though I did give the Scout and Fast Courier a 1 to 1 value (would normally be 2 and 3 to 1) to represent their speedy designs. I also gave all fighters a 1 to 1 with the exceptions of the Shuttles and Large/Massive Fighters (which have 2 to 1).

Please feel free to download this and let me know if you think anything should be changed.
1007595665.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1007595665.txt)

Also, in the data folder on the mod I added a sub-folder with both the Q-N style and the normal style of movement (as well as adding the same two files with the neostandard shipset names).

[Fyron]

All of the ship sizes in your file have zero max engines! Doesn't this prevent them from having any at all? I think that you need to set the max engines to 99 (that's what they are in P&N, anyways).

[Val]

I found (quite by accident) that 0 engines max and Requires Engines is set to True then you can put an unlimited number of engines on board (at least in my copy with the 1.49 patch). If someone else is having trouble, or if this doesn't work with Gold SEIV then I would up the Max number of engines to the highest I could (it takes a LOT of engines to move the planet killer).

Another question for y'all: Since we are using the Q-N system for our drives, this forces you to get multiple engines to get each movement point, but components that give bonus Movement points negate this to a degree. For example: 1 Quantum Engine on a destroyer would give the destroyer a 3 movement right off, while it would take 18 Ion Engines to achieve the same effect (6 Quantum Engines would give it a move of 4, 18 Q-E a move of 6).

So I was going to propose three things/ideas:
1) Only Gravitic and Ancient drives will get a bonus move (1 for Gravitic and 2 or 3 for ancients).

2) Drives tonnage will be reduced to half as you research better drives to help ease size constraints - this will represent better tech.

3) Agile ships (represented with extra movement) can be created with either "Agile Drives" with bonus movement or just a single component that gives bonus movement.

Opinions?

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

" I would up the Max number of engines to the highest I could (it takes a LOT of engines to move the planet killer)."

Careful on this. The max engines you can have is ~ 255- IF you use standard values for engines. If you use higher-propulsion engines (like in Pirates and Nomads) you'll run into problems earlier. If total move value given by the engines goes over 255, you'll get a Range Check error.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So I was going to propose three things/ideas:
1) Only Gravitic and Ancient drives will get a bonus move (1 for Gravitic and 2 or 3 for ancients).
2) Drives tonnage will be reduced to half as you research better drives to help ease size constraints - this will represent better tech.
3) Agile ships (represented with extra movement) can be created with either "Agile Drives" with bonus movement or just a single component that gives bonus movement.<hr></blockquote>1) seems ok on the surface, but more engines reduces efficiency. (1 QE gives 4 (1+3bonus), but 3 QE gives 6(3+3bonus). Adding those two engines reduces the power of individual drives by half!

2) Silly, reducing size is pointless. As drive tech goes up, you increase their thrust. You get the same effect. (thust per KT improves) Also, offering larger engines as tech goes up would be good.
EG: By the time you get up to an LC, you're putting 20 engines on your ship, but we can replace 7 10KT engines with a 65KT Capital Ship Drive. Less clicking when building a ship.

3) Rather than bonus movement, which applies to straight-line strategic map flying, add the Afterburner ability from fighters, so they only get the bonus in combat. However, like bonus movement, it is not affected by ship size, so beware large values like three.

[Val]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
1) seems ok on the surface, but more engines reduces efficiency. (1 QE gives 4 (1+3bonus), but 3 QE gives 6(3+3bonus). Adding those two engines reduces the power of individual drives by half!

2) Silly, reducing size is pointless. As drive tech goes up, you increase their thrust. You get the same effect. (thust per KT improves) Also, offering larger engines as tech goes up would be good.
EG: By the time you get up to an LC, you're putting 20 engines on your ship, but we can replace 7 10KT engines with a 65KT Capital Ship Drive. Less clicking when building a ship.

3) Rather than bonus movement, which applies to straight-line strategic map flying, add the Afterburner ability from fighters, so they only get the bonus in combat. However, like bonus movement, it is not affected by ship size, so beware large values like three.<hr></blockquote>

1) Right. The cost doesn't have to be much higher, but this bonus move would give older races a little edge that the young races don't have.

2) I was thinking about making engines at 5tn instead of 10tn so we can have a bit more varience in the different hull types for speed. 1 Bridge/LS/CQ & 24 Engines on a Destroyer gives you a speed of 4 and only 30 tns left for other stuff. We could accomplish the same thing by halving the number of engines required though.

65 Ton Capital Ship Engine : Can you give me an example component? How would this work when you require X # of engines/move? If you lowered the # of required engines per move then people would use the smaller engines, wouldn't they?

3) Sounds like a reasonable idea.

Finally, does anyone know if we can require ships to have a different component? If so we could require the ship to have a reactor (and a set type or number if possible) and then just use engines as thrusters.

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

SJ - I think I may have answered one of my own questions.

Would you have the larger engines simply generate more standard movement? So by making an engine that generate 7 standard movement, a ship that requires 7 engines per movement will only get 1 movement for each engine added.

Just tested that and it works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Exactly.
Say 50KT = 1 EMP.
And the basic engine gives 3 MP. So the CSE gives 21 MP.
If you stuffed a Captial Ship Engine onto an ES, which requires 3 EMP, you'd get 7 movement, and save 5KT over lots of small engines.

"Engines per move" is inaccurate, really it means "standard movement points per actual in-game movement point"


PS: to shipset designers
Could you design the "shield" effect to look like a hull bLast of some sort?
I'm using a small amount of SE4 shield to simulate SE3-style emissive armor effects, and I wouldn't want anybody to get the wrong impression.
This is mainly for shadow ships, but everybody should have one or two SE3-EA points to their armor, and it would look silly to have a phong-shield image pop up every time the ship gets hit.
Some electric arcs, or white firey flare (will always occur just before a hull-damage explosion animation) would look good.


Example armor:
Note that the values are quite small, since they will be used in large quantities to achieve the "Armor holes" effect (where shots can occasionally hit internals before the armor is gone)
Also, note that hitpoints & damage are multiplied by 10x, to slow down in-combat repair rates.

Name := B5 Normal Armor
Description := Normal hull type protective material. Easily pierced if thin, the more the merrier.
Tonnage Space Taken := 1
Tonnage Structure := 90
Number of Abilities := 0

Name := B5 Shadow Armor
Description := Able to resist moderate amounts of incoming fire, but can be overloaded if too much is brought to bear at once. Completely protects internals.
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 1000
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Has a maximum emissive capacity of 100 ADU per hit.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 100
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Shield Generation From Damage
Ability 2 Descr := Can emiss up to 20 ADU between hits.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 20
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Shield Regeneration
Ability 3 Descr := Can emiss up to 50 ADU between combat turns.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Armor Regeneration
Ability 4 Descr := Can be healed during combat.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Val]

Ok, I'm working on the Engines and Reactors now, should have something for everyone's approval by Monday at the latest.

[Val]

SJ and I are still talking about ideas for Engines/Reactors, so it will still be a little bit.

So far, what we're thinking is using reactors to power/supply the engines and weapons, but we are just trying to figure out how to make it generate the points fairly for the different classes.

[ZeroAdunn]

So how's it goin? Any files ready for download. I would really like to get a look at this mod.

[Val]

We'll try to get something posted this week. Having some trouble with setting it up for AI to use the new mod components.

[tesco samoa]

Are you limiting armour to certain ship classes ??

[Val]

SJ is actually doing the armor work and from what I've seen it looks good. Armor is going to be more like structural mass for a ship so the ship can take a huge beating, but there is still a chance of hitting something vital.

Where I am having trouble is with the Engines. Since we are using a Q-N style I have engine categories ranging from Light to Massive, but I am having trouble with making the AI pick a good mix of classes, maybe if I just make them pick the class best for a ship size and limit each shipsize group. Any ideas?

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Where I am having trouble is with the Engines. Since we are using a Q-N style I have engine categories ranging from Light to Massive, but I am having trouble with making the AI pick a good mix of classes, maybe if I just make them pick the class best for a ship size and limit each shipsize group. Any ideas?<hr></blockquote>Try giving the engines a useless ability, such as "organic extraction", or "star-unstable"

Light: minerals extraction (the facility ability)
Medium: organic extraction
Large: radioactives extraction
Heavy: Planet - shield generation
Massive: Star - unstable

For each Category of ship, you can then make the AI use some of each, and you can vary the proportions as you go.

Alternatively, you could give all engines all 5 abilities, and have them stand for certain characteristics, such as fuel efficiency, speed efficiency (thrust/size, so AIs won't pick an engine twice as big because it provides 10% more movement points), etc.

[Val]

Just so y'all have the meat and bones of the Mod, here it is:

B5Mod.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008625390.zip)
(It's about 7.5 Megs)

This includes: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

1) EA, Narn, Minbari, Vorlon, Shadow, Hyach and Centauri shipsets. Along with available AI, Empires and Design Names.

2) Edited Data Files:
CompEnhancement.txt - New mounts for sats, WPs and Mines Cultures.txt - Used Jourin's culture mod DefaultColonyTypes.txt - New colony types added DefaultDesignTypes.txt - New design types added EmperorNames.txt - Now includes Emperors and leaders from B5 Universe EmperorTitles.txt - Added a variety of titles and included all B5 titles EmpireNames.txt - Includes Empires from B5 universe EmpireTypes.txt - Added a variety of types and included all B5 types Settings.txt - Some adjustments SystemNames.txt - Used all the B5 system names (well over 200) for randomly generated universes VehicleSize.txt - Added all the NeoStandard sizes and created a subfolder with VehicleSize.txt files for Q-N and standard SEIV movement and NeoStandard and SEIV standard shipsets for individual tastes TechArea.txt - Raised the following levels to make compatible with VehicleSize file : Ship Construction - 15, Base Construction - 5, Fighters - 5, Troops - 4

3) Maps: B5.Map - Still WIP map of B5 universe. Put on hold while working on components, but fun to see.

4) Modinfo file that works with SEIV ModPicker Utility.

5) Changed Intro Screen with B5 Art

Things that are not in it... yet: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

1) Updated Components - Including:
[LIST] New Weapons - 10 different families New Engine Types - For Q-N style of play New Reactor Types - To supply power (supplies) to ship New Armor - Done in a whole new way! New Targeting/Tracking/Sensors/Cloaking - For a B5 feel

2) Finished Map

3) Scenarios

4) New Victory/Defeat/HumDead pics - Not yet finished

5) Alternate Sounds - These go with the components, so no point in wasting space

6) Anything else y'all would like to see that hasn't been mentioned yet

So, right now this pretty much works like a regular game of SEIV, but with a B5 feel, races and some tweaks. Once other data files are changed and AI is updated, I'll repost.


Everyone, please give some feedback on what is here so far, and what direction you want it to go in. Also, any suggestions or corrections are welcome!

Finally: Looking for volunteers for Hyach AI (for standard SEIV) and anyone who would like to continue with helping this along.

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[zircher]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
PS: to shipset designers
Could you design the "shield" effect to look like a hull bLast of some sort?
<hr></blockquote>

Is there an example of this in the current B5 mod file?
--
TAZ

[Val]

These 3 files will point the Centauri, Narn & Minbari to the correct Design names in the mod rather than the generic ones.

AI_DesignName_Fix.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008682415.zip)

Here are three sample components for the engines (Fission, Fussion & AntiMatter)

EngineSamples.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008682479.zip)

Also, any ideas for B5 style facilities y'all would like to see?

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Here's a non-artist's impression of how the Vorlon armor might look in B5.

Vorlon_Shields.bmp (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008698060.bmp)

For the younger races, just use a white flare, or something. It'll work like an intro to the hull impact animation, since the "shield" effect will only subtract 2 or 3 points of damage, and thus both are guaranteed to appear in order http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[ZeroAdunn]

You shuold consider doing engines similar to the way I did it in the neomod. Create two components: 1: thrusters, and 2: Drives (both generic names)

Thrusters give standard movment and drives give bonus movement (like the solar sail)

I like the shield image.

[Val]

I was actually making them Engines (Thrusters) and Reactors (Power/Supplies).

Here are the components and techs related to Engines/Reactors I have so far:

Comp&Tech.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008704425.zip)

The idea is that the reactors will self generate the supplies you need to keep the ship running, but if you lose a few you will be looking at 'power' shortages.

[Phoenix-D]

I was thinking about doing something similar for my mod.. but it just seemed weird to have a fusion reactor make more energy with more stars, and none with none.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

The trick is to make the maximum storage = the amounte generated by one star.

That way there is no difference in production.

You do have to modify the systemtypes to hide some stars in nebulae and blackhole systems.

[ZeroAdunn]

I like what you've done with the engine system.

I would however change the name of the ancient reactors to "Hyperspace Tap" This is the generally accepted name for the reactor used by the Ancients.

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: ZeroAdunn ]</p>

[Rambie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Rambie there are some problems with your shipset, The Hyperion (what class is that ship anyways?) is actually smaller than the Nova class destroyer. And a whitestar is smaller than The Hyperion. The ShadOmega (omega-X whatever) is the same size as the Omega. Thats all....<hr></blockquote>

The EA set is being changed for the next Version. the Whitestar is now in the Minbari shipset. I'm changing around some other ships as well, though I hadn't thought about the Hyperion/Nova thing. I know the Shadow Omega is the same size as the Omega, but it's more powerful so I make the shadow one the Battleship.

I'm re-rendering the 36x36 mini pictures of most of the ships too.

If you have more suggestions I'd love to hear them.

[ 20 December 2001: Message edited by: Rambie ]</p>

[ZeroAdunn]

OMG Rambie, I thought you were dead. Well maybe not. I must say though I really like your shipset, it is by far my favorite shipset for SEIV so far.

[Val]

Yeah, I was going to use HyperSpace Tap for the ancients ships, but had termed it "Ancient" at some point in one of my Excel spreadsheets and I wound up with the name being generated for all the engines on my merge. I will change it back to HyperSpace Tap before we release the new components file http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Does anyone else have any other suggestions, corections, and/or comments?

Here is an alternate intro screen that Tony is working on:

VorlonIntro.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008856549.zip)

Does anyone have any B5 material they have been working on that isn't in the mod yet? Any more ideas on what should be in the mod?

Right now SJ is working on the armor/shields, Rambie is reworking the EA and has talked about the Narn as well and I am working on the engines/reactors, weapons and infantry. Anyone working (or want to work) on anything else?

[imported_Balifis]

Please comment on the new intro screen i made (on page 7, in Val's message). Point your criticism, so it can be improved.

[Suicide Junkie]

Those ships look very good, but the font is quite hard to read.
Perhaps if you blacked out the front face of the letters (if you see them as 3D, with the green as the side of the letter). Maybe a hyperspace or jumppoint texture on the lettering?
It might be nice to get a variety of races in the picture as well.


I think this mostly has to do just with Val & me, but I've described hitpoints & damage in terms of "ADU" which stands for Arbitrary Damage Unit.
EG: "Crystalline Ability(100pts): can withstand up to a 100 ADU impact without significant damage."

What do you guys think?


I've also come up with an idea for implementing a "decreasing returns" effect.
On any one ship, you can choose a primary ECM (10:20:30), a secondary ECM (4:8:12), tertiary ECM(2:4:6), and auxiliary ECM (1:2:3).
Each type is limited to one per ship, but they stack amongst each other.
So, at tech level3, you can spend 10KT, and get 30%, or 20KT and get 42%, 30 KT and get 48%, 40KT gets you 51%

This same theory applies to anything.
For armor, I want to make a "Conductive Armor - Primary" which gives a full "emissive" ability. It is limited to one-per-ship. Then, "Conductive Armor - Additional", will give a much smaller "emissive" ability (since my virtual emissive ability will stack).
That way, I can give small ships a decent ability rating (use just the primary chunk), while giving the larger ships an improved ability, but not emissive invulnerability.

[ZeroAdunn]

How exaxtly are you doing you virtual Emissive armor ability?

Personally I don't think there shuould be alimit on the amount of armor you can add. Everything else sounds good though.

[Rambie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
OMG Rambie, I thought you were dead. Well maybe not. I must say though I really like your shipset, it is by far my favorite shipset for SEIV so far.<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the comments. I worked hard on the Narn and EA sets to try to make them the best I could.

No, not dead... well not yet anyway. I'm just busy with school and work. I've got to learn Cisco router programming, Visual Basic, and keep all my other tasks at work up to date at the same time, PLUS I'm working on a Bachelor degree full time... let's just say that sleep and I haven't been seeing much of each other the Last month. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Val has a few other things he wants me to do with the EA set but it's moving in the right direction.

If you haven't seen it I have a possible B5 intro screen on my web page. I think it has the right amount of energy and emotion that a intro screen needs... and explosions! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

SJ, I like your ideas. Keep up the great work.

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Rambie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How exaxtly are you doing you virtual Emissive armor ability?
Personally I don't think there shuould be alimit on the amount of armor you can add. Everything else sounds good though.<hr></blockquote>There is no limit. You could build a 99% armor ship (still needs command & control to be legal)

The regular armor is unlimited, but for the ones with abilities I'm planning to make a "Primary" limited to one per ship, with as many "Addons" as you want.
The primary armor has a big ability, and the addons have much smaller amounts.
Only a primary fits on an escort (giving say 100 points)
A dreadnaught might hold a primary and 5 addons, (giving 100+ 5*20 = 200)
That allows the small ships to have a noticable ability effect, without making huge ships invincible.
NOTE: the addon armor will have the same physical hitpoints and size, just a reduced emissive ability.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How exaxtly are you doing you virtual Emissive armor ability?<hr></blockquote>My virtual emissive is Shield generation + Crystalline effect, where both have the same value.
The "shield" provides a maximum emissive capacity, and the crystalline cools the armor down between shots. Its not perfect, but on the average it will work reasonably well.
This is why I wanted the shield animations to be glowing/electric hull effects

[Val]

The intro screen Rambie is talking about is also in the Current Mod as the Intro screen.

Another thing worth mentioning about damage is that all components have been scaled up to allow all races to have some ‘repair’ ability. So those engineers can be frantically working on repairing the smaller drives or weapons while their otherwise dead ship is floating in space. We had also talked about adding repair teams, security teams and so forth to give a crew element to the ships.

I also want to wish everyone a happy and safe holiday and thank everyone for their contributions, interest and support on this Mod!

[ZeroAdunn]

I like what you are doing with the armor. Though on heavily armored ships it may be almost impossible to do damage. How large is a piece of armor going to be and how many hitpoints is it going to have?

What you mean you are scaling up components?

Yes repair crews and security teems seem like a good idea to me. You could just make them different crew quarters components,
1: Security (adds crew devence bonus)
2: Repair (repairs ship, possibly larger component to preven mussuse)
3: ???

[Val]

Looking for my suggestions on 'Crew' components. Med Team, Intel Ops Team, Shipboard Telepath, PSI-Core Team, Research Team & IPX Team were some ideas. Also, maybe other bonuses that will up price of ship.

The 'scaling' is that all Tonnage Structure is being upped by 10 times the current value (well, mostly - this is our rule of thumb) this will give everything higher ADUs so we can better represent the minor repairs that teams would be doing as the ship is being pummelled into submission. Also, this would allow the Ancients to repair at a much more accellerated rate. Weapons are also scaled up by 10 times the standard values.

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I like what you are doing with the armor. Though on heavily armored ships it may be almost impossible to do damage. How large is a piece of armor going to be and how many hitpoints is it going to have?<hr></blockquote>I'm starting off with 4 classes of basic hitpoint raising components. (IE inert armor, ignoring the fancy mid to ancient techs)

Structural Supports: IMG = Stacked Variety Armor (P&N's ablative armor)
- Starts from 1KT, $7, 180 HP
- Can hold the ship together even after severe damage, but most components will have already been burned away.

Light Armor: IMG = Flat Gold Armor
- Starts from 10KT, $100, 1500 HP
- High HP value, but relatively easily pierced. Best protects the small internal components such as crew quarters & light engines.

Midrange Armor: IMG = Emissive armor
- Starts from 50KT, $1000, 6,000 HP.

Heavy Armor: IMG = Ringworld gravity plating
- Starts from 100KT, $3000, 10,000 HP
- Low HP value for armor, but is extremely hard to pierce. Can protect even large external weapons.

Reinforced armor will either be a mount for boosted hitpoints, or a real armor "never pierced" ability at 10x the price or so.

I'm open to suggestions, especially on terminology.

[Val]

Here is Mephisto's latest Narn AI (and an updated EA Speech file)

Narn_AI.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1008975068.zip)

This is not included as part of the full Mod (below) yet, but will be part of the next major upload we make.

[zircher]

Sorry, but I absolutely hate the text used on the Vorlon Intro image. It took me a few momement to figure out what it was (besides annoying.) The double image effect of the text was not a good idea. Neither is the ability to see through the front face of the text. Having to guess at the letters by looking at their sides totally takes away from the fact that you are supposed to sending a message. Perhaps if the front face was black or dark green, it would give the appearance of solid text and not ribbons or chaff.

I liked the background image, but make the text solid (perhaps translucent) and leave the image in the backgound.
--
TAZ

[Phoenix-D]

"The 'scaling' is that all Tonnage Structure is being upped by 10 times the current value (well, mostly - this is our rule of thumb) this will give everything higher ADUs so we can better represent the minor repairs that teams would be doing as the ship is being pummelled into submission. Also, this would allow the Ancients to repair at a much more accellerated rate. Weapons are also scaled up by 10 times the standard values."

Umm.. if you scale up BOTH the resistance and weapon values, by the same amount- how does that change anything?

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

We are going to use an organic armor regeneration ability to represent the crew's emergency repairs to components during battle.

Since the minimum value is 1, and there will be many of these repairable components per ship, every ship will have a minimum of about 30 regen per turn. That equates to 3 lifesupport or a light weapon every turn.
In order to get reasonably slow rates or repair, we need to increase the hitpoints of everything.

[ZeroAdunn]

Wait, your going to use organic armor regen? This means all components will have to have the ability for armor. This means there can be no reall armor, right?


I do now see what you are doing with the large size of components and all.

It's been a while since I've messed around with the Organic regen ability but I remember that it used to regenerate all organic armor components once combat was over, does it still do this? If so this could cause a major problem.

[Phoenix-D]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Armor Regeneration
Value1 = The amount of structure points regenerated per combat turn.
Value2 = <hr></blockquote>

That's actually a totally seperate ability from the Armor ability.

Phoenix-D

[Baron Munchausen]

Sorry, but we've already tried to get 'whole ship' regeneration that way. Armor Regeneration only works on armor. I forget now if it was completely useless or if it only regenerated the armor no matter which component you put it on, but it definitely does NOT repair non-armor components in combat. The best you could do would be to put emissive armor ability on all internal components. Then they'd be much harder to damage.

Guess you can add 'real time damage control' to the requested abilities list that you want to bug MM for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]</p>

[Zarix]

Would the emissive ability do any good? Doesn't it just make the component immune if damage is lower than the value and if damage is bigger than the value component takes full damage?

[Baron Munchausen]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Zarix:
Would the emissive ability do any good? Doesn't it just make the component immune if damage is lower than the value and if damage is bigger than the value component takes full damage?<hr></blockquote>

If it works as it is SUPPOSED to it would reduce the damage by the set amount on each hit, even if it was over the limit. But you're right, the way is has been working is that it either ignores the damage or doesn't affect it. I'm not aware of what it is doing in 1.49, you'll have to test it I guess.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Sorry, but we've already tried to get 'whole ship' regeneration that way. Armor Regeneration only works on armor. <hr></blockquote>As of V1.49, I remember doing a test, whereby I gave my living ships's Lifesupport organs an organic armor regen, and they repaired each other.

In fact, with Gold v.57, a pile of Ion Engines just healed up after a heavy pounding.

Oddly enough, when the engines were totally gone, the lifesupport stopped healing itself...

After some testing, I have come to believe that the organic regeneration applies to any component with OA ability at least 1.
However, if you lose all copies of ANY component with OA ability, then the OA regen is shut off, even though you may still have OA generating components operational.

In my case, that meant losing all of my OA engines, OR all of my OA lifesupport.
This needs hardcode changes to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . SE4 should check to see whether ANY surviving component still has OA ability, not if any stack of an OA ability component has been destroyed completely.

[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Val]

Ok, so if the OA ability is wiped off a ship once all components with OA in a stack are destroyed, and we can't really use component repair (we could, but that isn't quite as slow of a regen effect as we want), what are some other options. Baron Munchausen, sounds like you played with some possibilities, what have you tried?

[ZeroAdunn]

How's it goin?

[Val]

Been a little on the busy side at work and with the holidays on top of that I haven't had an abundance of time on my hands.

But, even with that being said, here are some updates for y'all:

1) Rambie is working on updating the EA shipset and it is looking good.

2) Tony is working on some Win/Lose/HumanDead pics.

3) I've added 5 Neutral races (Gaim & Llort completed - Grome, Hurr & Yolu AI and descriptions being worked on) and started real rough work on some of the other league member races (broke out the Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi & Vree). Changed some more info in the data files including replacing all warps (except the small warp) with a jump gate image (I want to make some other jump gate images as well to represent damaged gates and such - unless someone else would like to). Added my prelim pics for some new events (Soul Hunter and Strieb Collector) I am working on. Everything mentioned in #3 is included in this update:

Bab5ModUpdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1009827946.zip)

4) Still working with SJ on components and tech.

5) Working on Hyach AI.

Haven't heard much from Atomannj or Oleg. Zircher is busy with another project (check it out at : Zircher's Site (http://www.geocities.com/tzircher/tcom_gcd.htm) )

I miss anyone or anything?

[tesco samoa]

http://www.tgu.org.uk/Users/babylon5/B5A2.htm

anyone seen this???

if this link was post before by me or any one else at least it was a year ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Val]

Nope, never seen it before, thanks! Looks like they have some good stuff we could also use http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[tesco samoa]

Or do a cross game mod. Help each other out. There ships are very cool looking

Now that would be a first.(just a guess)

[Val]

Not a bad idea.

I just sent him (Wraith) an E*mail letting him know what we were up to and seeing if there were areas where we could use the same art or information on both Mods. I would think the species descriptions and background would be one logical area, and some of the artwork should be usable in both mods as well.

I pointed him over to this thread and hopefully we'll hear back from him.

Thanks for the idea and the tip http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[thorfrog]

I'm back! How are things going with this mod? I haven't had time to work on anything. It looks like it has taken a life of it's own. Very cool. What's the status now? How are the tech trees coming? I don't have time right now to work on AI for Centauri and LoNAW races. So any AI modders feel free to update and change.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ah, yes, I just remembered:

Who here believes in balancing resource costs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I believe that the mod will be much more interesting if we can avoid classic SE4's One-Resource thing.
If all three resources are valuable, then real trading & specialization becomes a possibility. It will be entirely possible to become a radioactives specialist, and trade at 1:1:1 with organic/mineral empires.

One obstacle I encountered when trying to do even the costs was justifying the higher organic/rads.
How about:
- Minerals are only required for the physical construction. Mineral cost should be proportional to the mass of a component.
- Organics include not only construction, but labour costs as well.
- Radioactives include the cost for power use, especially components that don't use supplies, and for high-energy construction methods.

As an added enhancement for specialization, many more levels in resource extraction could be added.

[tesco samoa]

that is a good idea. And no resource converters.

[Val]

As of right now SJ & I are working on the components and techs.

Rambie is revamping te EA shipset and may work on victory/defeat/hum dead bitmaps for flavor.

Finished some neutral races (posted below)

Actually, read down a few and you can see all the updates that have been posted up to now.

[Suicide Junkie]

At least no 90% efficiency converters.
20-40% would be OK, so that you would be able to survive if your trading partners cut you off, but there is still a 70-90% profit margin when trading.

Monoliths are the items we'll have to restrict, but then again, monoliths aren't really B5ish tech.

[Val]

Sounds like a good idea (resource talk below). I know the engine stats that I have I used Radioactives for all of them the represent power sources/conduits/etc., and even more for the reactors. I also agree with no resource converters, to a degree... I think we should restrict them to Ancient Races only. Another little edge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

We could make monoliths a "Unique" tech that would have to be discovered in ruins. A legacy of a long dead race.

[Fyron]

Do you guys need any help making this mod?

[tesco samoa]

Sort of like their own tech. resource converters.

5% conVersion and 5% for each additional level up to 25% percent.

Expensive to research and expensive to build.

Perhaps have the monoliths max out at 300 a turn for players

I could see the vorlons and/or shadows using them (say at the current real levels or greater)since their economy engines are unlimitied. And they should start with them at the beginning of the game.

Just some ideas

[Val]

Worked on some of the events (changing pics and added a few new ones). Also fixed a prob on the JumpGate pic and Llort AI. Added Hyach .emp files as well.

Bab5Mod14911Update.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011018891.zip)

I'm still looking for some pics for events and suggestions for more random events. So, suggestions for both are welcome!

Imperator Fyron :

Can definately use some assistance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif What are you up for?


Tesco Samoa :

I agree with giving it to the Vorlons and Shadows as an Ancient's 'perk'. I also like the idea of limited conVersion for the other races, making a player spend the extra research and time to make it sounds like a good trade off!

[tesco samoa]

I am looking forward to playing the game when it is complete. How is the map coming along ???

[Fyron]

I can help with making components and such. Where exactly could I be of most assistance?

"Name := Light Fussion Engine I"

Technically, fusion only has 1 "s" in it.


In B5, making colonies is a very expensive process. We should make the colony components and the colony ships larger, increasing their structure by 400 or 500, so that only colony ships can have them (and possibly large transports). That way, you couldn't put a colony module, which should take a lot of space, onto a small war ship such as a light cruiser. Also, the colony modules shoud be very expensive, so that it takes about 7 or 8 turns to make one colony ship at a homeworld planet. IMO, colonization should be very expensive and be a major undertaking. According to B5Tech.com (http://www.b5tech.com/earthalliance/earthxenohistory/earthhistory/earthhistory.html), the Earth Alliance has "sixteen colonies, eight major military outPosts and eleven research stations," which took them nearly a century to acquire. So, the colonization rates in standard SEIV seem way to high for B5.

Also, the portrait for the Vorlon Space Station has a line across the bottom of it. Here is a fixed Version of it:

vorlon_portrait_spacestation.bmp (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011027768.bmp)

We should include a lot of fleet formations in the mod, because the standard ones suck. Here is my compilation of all the formations I could find in the various mods:

formations.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011027620.txt)

[ 14 January 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

We should also use a heavily population-dependant build rate.
Say, -90% for 1M people, +1% for every 5M people added after that.
Maxed out, giant planets would get +400% production, while the new colonies would only be good for research & resource extraction.

(And, yes, I am willing to generate the 500+ lines in settings.txt to make this work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Also, what would you guys think about having the resource extraction rate of the planet go DOWN when the population gets high (and full of planet-wide cities)?

[Val]

Fyron:

Heh, maybe we should give you the job of proof reader http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I could use some help with the weapon systems, been trying to make them fair and figure out the research criteria. I'm also looking for some help with re-doing the quadrants (adding new ones and modding the current ones to include 'invisible' stars in black hole systems to power the reactors).

Colony restrictions - is there anyway to restrict a component type to a ship type? Or can we build in the Colony component to the ship? (prefabbed colony ships)

If we kept to B5 standards in the game for the colonies we could run into logistics problems for creating fleets and such. I actually played a games with the new engines (Q-N ships) and started with Fision engines and it took me quite some time to become 'established' in the game.

Formations - I agree with that. Care to design some new ones? I've added your formation list to my "master" B5Mod.

Tesco:

The map is a headache, all the jump points are set, and many systems have been created. Just getting eye strain trying to make all 200+ systems. Plus, if we modify and add quadrant types to be more "B5 friendly", then you can play a pickup game in a universe with all the same names, but not a set map.

The main purpose of the map is so we can setup a scenario (or four) that matches the B5 universe at given time periods.

SJ:

I like that idea, makes it more realistic (if such a word can be applied to a sci-fi game).

What's the reasoning for prod rate going down? Out of curriosity.

Everyone:

Any volunteers for anything else, other comments?

has anyone tried playing the mod (such as it is). Any comments on anything?

I added some new events and am looking for sounds for the weapons. Anyone have weapon sound clips?

Thanks!

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What's the reasoning for prod rate going down? Out of curriosity.<hr></blockquote>The production would be going down as the planet gets paved over to support those 8 billion people.

I imagine resource extraction would rapidly rise until you hit 500-1500 million, then start to go back down again, in a lopsided wave shape when graphed vs population.

Notes:
(on planets with max pop close to optimum production pop)
-domed planets. The pop is concentrated in the domes, so most of the land is unspoiled.
-tiny breathable worlds. Low gravity would allow easy construction of tall buildings, so you don't waste as much surface area.

[Val]

Well argued and agreed!

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If we kept to B5 standards in the game for the colonies we could run into logistics problems for creating fleets and such. I actually played a games with the new engines (Q-N ships) and started with Fision engines and it took me quite some time to become 'established' in the game.<hr></blockquote>Which isn't nessesarily a bad thing. Wider gaps of space between empires, dotted with military outPosts (not even planets, maybe bases). You need to have a decent buffer zone in order to intercept enemy ships before they can clobber your colonies

That reminds me:
What % of normal maintenance should bases cost? The standard 50% seems high...

Perhaps we could add maintenance reducing components ("Civilian Space - Residential/Commercial" 500 KT)

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Anyone have weapon sound clips?<hr></blockquote>

Check out B5Tech.net (http://www.b5tech.net/). They have a lot of sounds.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Heh, maybe we should give you the job of proof reader http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr></blockquote>

I could do that.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I could use some help with the weapon systems, been trying to make them fair and figure out the research criteria.<hr></blockquote>

Do you have some preliminary damage/kiloton ratios worked out yet? The current beta Version of the mod doesn't have any B5 weapons in it.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm also looking for some help with re-doing the quadrants (adding new ones and modding the current ones to include 'invisible' stars in black hole systems to power the reactors).<hr></blockquote>

Add to SystemTypes.txt:

Name := Black Hole
Description := Black hole system. A black hole is a star which has collapsed in on itself until it has become so dense that even light cannot escape its gravitational pull.
System Physical Type := Black Hole
Background Bitmap := Blackhole.bmp
Empires Can Start In := FALSE
Mask Background Objs := TRUE
Non-Tiled Center Pic := TRUE
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := System - Movement Towards Center
Ability 1 Descr := All ships will be moved 2 sectors towards the center each turn.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 2
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := System - Destructive Center
Ability 2 Descr := The center of the blackhole will destroy any ships that enter it.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Sector - Shield Disruption
Ability 3 Descr := Heavy gravitation causes all shields to be useless.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
WP Stellar Abil Type := Unstable Warp Point
Number of System Objs := 1
Obj 1 Physical Type := Star
Obj 1 Position := Coord 6,4
Obj 1 Stellar Abil Type := Normal Star
Obj 1 Size := Any
Obj 1 Age := Ancient
Obj 1 Color := Purple
Obj 1 Luminosity := Dim

Add to SectType.txt:

Physical Type := Star
Picture Num := 500 (make blank bmp)
Description := Core of the black hole.
Star Size := Medium
Star Age := Ancient
Star Color := Purple
Star Luminosity := Dim

This should cause the black hole to have one object in it. It will be a star. By using the Purple color, you can make it so that this star will always appear in the black hole, because it is the only star color that the black hole can have. Unfortunately, their will be a chance for this "star" to appear in other systems as well.

I have included these in a text file so that all the lines will match up properly:

black_hole_with_star.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011046136.txt)

[Val]

Talk about turn around time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have an Excel sheet with prelim weapon ranges and damages at 'normal' capacity. Each weapon will have 5 cats right now 1-Prototype (less range, damage, etc), 2-4 Normal (all same range, dmg will vary), 5 - Advanced (Increased everything). I have upwords of 120+ weapon types for all the races, plus I have more to add once we get going.

I've been using excel sheets then merging it into a word doc to make my files to save time.

[Fyron]

Could you post this excel spreadsheet or send it to me? I mean, if you want my help, I'll need to see what you've got and what needs to be done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So will my idea for the invisible star in the black hole system work? I think that to make it so that the purple star doesn't appear any where else, you would have to make several copies of each system type, one for each standard star color. That isn't too bad for the standard system, but it would be a big problem for those trinary systems. If you wanted to have systems with 4 or 5 stars, then that would get very crazy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually, what does this do exactly?

Mask Background Objs := TRUE

If it makes a regular star become invisible, then i guess that my purple star solution is pointless.

Alternatively, you could give black holes this ability:

Ability 4 Type := Sector - Sight Obscuration
Ability 4 Descr := Light cannot excape from a black hole, so sensors do not function here.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 30
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0

This would obscure the star(s) that you put in the black hole system. Also, it would prevent you from seeing enemy ships in the system, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Fyron]

Also, I'd suggest having the black hole do 50000 damage instead of 5000. That way, a huge, heavily armored ship could not survive the black hole's event horizon.

[tesco samoa]

I would have figured that most races (younger)could only colonize rock planets. Perhaps, the Minbari could colonize Ice and Rock.

[Val]

I was going to eliminate Gas planet colonies - so you can only mine them.

I figured Ice and Rock planets were similar enough, just make it difficult to research the other.

Most (ie almost ALL) races in B5 are Rock, Oxygen races. Vorlon, Gaim and a few non-major races are the only exceptions I can think of. Another reason I wanted to mod the Quad Type files is to make sure every system has a higher chance for at least one O2 rock world.

[Phoenix-D]

"This should cause the black hole to have one object in it. It will be a star."

Also FYI if someone clicks on the sector containing the star, it would show up like a normal star would (err, minus the actual picture) so you might want to force it to appear at 6,6 and describe it like event horizon or something.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

RE: Gas giants
Rather than letting a gas giant be mined out, we should probably set "remote mining reduces value := false"
You could, of course, get much more out of a planet by colonizing, but remote mining might be viable for those planets out in no-man's land.

Note that the majority of huge gas giants should by Hydrogen/Helium, although the smaller giants can be others. (None of the races can colonize them anyways, so atmosphere types don't matter except for realism)
Also, due to the H/He composition of the gas giants, they should be started with a very low concentration of minerals & organics, but be great sources of rads (fusion reactor fuel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )
- Rock worlds should probably favour minerals over organics.
- "Ice"/Water worlds should favour organics.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also FYI if someone clicks on the sector containing the star, it would show up like a normal star would (err, minus the actual picture) so you might want to force it to appear at 6,6 and describe it like event horizon or something.<hr></blockquote> A raised-bubble distortion of a starfield using an image editor would look really cool for the event horizon "star": star images getting smeared into arcs around the edge and all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...

[Val]

I always thought of the organics and mineral resources on a Gas Giant as the rings/moons around the planet. I know we couldn't possibly add all the moons (ok, you could, but that would make for one heck of a system) for even our solar system in this game, so I always thought of them as lumped with the planet, and the moons that you see around a planet are the largest most colonizable ones.

[Suicide Junkie]

Hey, why not.
Toss in a tiny asteroid field for the rings, and adjust the tiny planets.

Tiny planets (minor moons) -&gt; 0 facil, 1 if breathable, (but all created as vaccuum worlds). Useful for remote mining, or unit construction + a few million pop.

If you can create a "micro" planet type, which would be even better, that would be great. I had some wierd effects when I tried way back when, but that was on some very old Versions of SE4.

[Val]

Do you have your original trial 'micro-planets'? What do you mean "weird"?

[Suicide Junkie]

I didn't keep the files, since I hadn't made many changes (I probably didn't do enough)
The "wierd effects" were null-worlds, with no picutre, null atmosphere (not "vaccuum", but ""), null surface type, and normal resource values.

That was quite a long time ago, though... somewhere around the time when it was still just "Piratesmod", and nomads were something that just couldn't be done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

[Val]

SJ:

There are some Nomad races in B5, think they should be added? Raiders could be designed along Nomad ways. Drahk also appear somewhat nomadic - at leaset since Zha'ha'dum was destroyed.

[Suicide Junkie]

Drahk would need a colony or two to be able to make deals, while raiders could be purely nomadic pirates.
I reccommend giving Raiders some sort of "Capture Ray", to make ship captures easier. It would be a range one, low damage, "only living beings" damage type, Surgical Strike weapon.
IE. it takes out crew quarters, boarding parties & security teams only.

It will be weak enough to only destroy one component per turn, so you'll need to attack crippled/unarmed ships, use a larger ship to cover you, or use lots of raiders.

Aside from those advantages, they will also have the advantage of depleting the "shields" generated by the advanced armor & grav deflectors.

APPEND:
Back to nomadic stuff: Raiders make their money from capture/scrapping, drahk make their money... how?

As for maintenance... what should the values be? (They can be anything we like, despite the 5% rule)
Raiders will need to be in the 0.5% to 1% range, in order to be able to maintain ships.
Also, a "civilian cloak" would be useful as a racial tech. (Hide in plain view, and all that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

How to give arbirtary maintenance costs:
We can set all ship hulls to give a 90% maintenance reduction.
The raiders take 5% maint, 10% of which is 0.5%
The normal races take 250% maint, 10% of which equals SE4 Classic 25% maintenance.

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

""only living beings" damage type, Surgical Strike weapon.
IE. it takes out crew quarters, boarding parties & security teams only."

I'm not seeing this listed in my components.txt file. Undocumented damage type? Or do you have Gold on the brain? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

Hehe. It IS in the list, but you have to read between the lines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Only Security Stations"
We simply add one boarding defense point to all the extra items we want it to destroy, such as boarding parties, and crew quarters.

In tests by others, it was found to NOT skip shields.

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also FYI if someone clicks on the sector containing the star, it would show up like a normal star would (err, minus the actual picture) so you might want to force it to appear at 6,6 and describe it like event horizon or something.<hr></blockquote>

I know. I meant for the "star" to be in the center of the system. I must have copied the basic info from one of the stars in a trinary system or something. I gave the star a description so that it would have one if a player clicked on it. I called it the core of the black hole, when I should have called it the event horizon. Just some accidental sloppiness on my part. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A raised-bubble distortion of a starfield using an image editor would look really cool for the event horizon "star": star images getting smeared into arcs around the edge and all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ... <hr></blockquote>

That would work pretty well. Could you draw this SJ?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>drahk make their money... how?
<hr></blockquote>

IIRC, the Drahk do not harvest any resources. They had a large fleet before Zha'ha'dum was destroyed, and they didn't make any new ships afterwards. They couldn't make any of their motherships or battle cruisers or anything without establishing a new colony, which I am pretty sure that they did not do.

[thorfrog]

Great idea to incorperate pirates & nomads to the game. We could now have roaming Drahk and Raiders. Maybe we could also include the First Ones like this. Six or seven ultra-powerful ships.

How about this for an idea for events. The First One Lorien appears in one of your systems moral increases accross the empire.

[Val]

As near as I can tell the Drahk are pretty much living like a raider race, and live off resources left over from Zha'ha'dum.

It would be neat to create the ancient ships as wanderers (single ships), though that would probably be easier to create in a scenario situation. Just make them their single super ship and give it nil maint. Right?

If nobody wants to model the star, we could always "clip out" the middle of the blackhole and make that the star pic, so it will look exactly the same as far as anyone is concerned.

One question for everyone: Weapon Platforms in B5 - I don't really recall seeing planet based weapons in any episodes (other than the ancient planetary laser on Epsilon). Should we eliminate them and limit people to orbital defenses? Maybe add an even larger range of Sat sizes/categories that could hold more weapons?

[Suicide Junkie]

There have got to be ground based missiles, and maybe some beam weapons, useful for a slash at troop transports & stuff drifting too close
(Range 3 or so?)
Nothing too serious, but they should be able to hold control of a planet despite some "splash damage" from an orbital battle. Sort of an air-raid bunker for small pop colonies.

RE: black hole stars: I'll have to go with Val on that. The distortions would look cool, but they would probably not mesh with the system-wide image, and end up looking dumb http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If you want an accurate B5 game, you'll have to go with a scenario.
For lots of good random games, let the wanderers & pirates have their homeworld for initial production.
When it gets destroyed (as it will inevitably be, since they can't build colonies) then they will move into the true Nomadic/Pirate lifestyle.

The Drahk will be unrealistic except in a scenario, so they should probably be set up like a neutral for random games.
If you find and befriend or enslave them, then they could go and fight on your side, or whatever.

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It would be neat to create the ancient ships as wanderers (single ships), though that would probably be easier to create in a scenario situation. Just make them their single super ship and give it nil maint. Right?<hr></blockquote>

Right.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If nobody wants to model the star, we could always "clip out" the middle of the blackhole and make that the star pic, so it will look exactly the same as far as anyone is concerned.<hr></blockquote>

That is probably the best solution.

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[tesco samoa]

The new BAB5 series starts Sat.

[Fyron]

Is it a series, or a movie, or a movie that will be the first episode of a new series (like Crusade)? The previews I saw a few days ago on sci-fi channel said it was just a movie, and didn't mention a series. Please excuse the ignorance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

It's a 2 hour movie "Legend's of the Rangers" on Sci-Fi at 9 EST. If it does well it will become a series (acording to the creator and Sci-Gossip).

So far I've only heard from one person on the Weap Plat thing. We can include some new facilty types to make invasion more difficult (bunkers, defense facilities, etc.), but I don't even remember planet based missiles in the show. The best example was in the movie when the Drahk (or Minbari battle of the Line) attacked Earth. Everything was ship or orbital sats/bases. The only thing from Earth were fighters and atmosphere capable ships. So, do we keep them, or just cut down their range to almost nothing (like 1 - 3 squares)?

Also, wanted to let everyone know that the ranges/damages for weapons are almost complete, but now I need input on tonnage and costs. Any volunteers?

[oleg]

Does anybody have any idea when (if at all) it will be in UK ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Growltigga]

Oleg, I suspect we will not see it until it comes out on video or DVD

[oleg]

Too bad. Somebody will definetly put it in Morpheous but my university does not allow it. And home connection is just too slow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also, wanted to let everyone know that the ranges/damages for weapons are almost complete, but now I need input on tonnage and costs. Any volunteers?<hr></blockquote>

Sure, I can volunteer. Send me the latest weapons spreadsheet, and I'll try to come up with some sizes and costs. Do you need someone to code all of this info into the components.txt file?

[Val]

Weapons.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011393593.zip)

If y'all want to check out the prelim weapons damage here they are.

Anybody want to help with tonnage and costs?

[Val]

Hah, responded to my question before I posted and I responded to your request before I read it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'm aiming to put it all in the excel sheet and then run a merge with a word doc and save it as txt from there. At least that is how I did the Engines (seemed to work fine). So I shouldn't need any coding, just some guidance on tonnage and material costs.

I actually have the merge all set to go once the variables are in. It will also generate Tech Areas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

Well that sure takes the "fun" out of modding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Do you have any preliminary damage/kiloton ratios, or do you need that too?

[Fyron]

Also, what tech levels are these weapon types going to require? Does an Antimatter Cannon I and an Antimatter Converter I require the same tech level, or what?

Which weapons are supposed to be weak-powered? medium-powered? high-powered? uber-powerful? I mean, which weapon types should have high damage/kiloton ratios, and which should have low ones?

There seem to be a number of #DIV/0! in the damage fields.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok, guys. I need comments on the population modifiers I'm doing.
See it in Graph Form (.gif) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011466569.gif) (Note: the horizontal lines are 25%, with light blue every 100%. The vertical ones are 100M pop, with light blue every 500M pop.)

So far, I have about 1300 distinct population modifiers, one for every 5M people, up to 2 Billion people, then one every 50M, up to a filled sphereworld. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The base Construction rate is 10% of normal.
You get +1% for every 50M people.
Maxed out sphereworlds can thus produce at 12.8 times the normal spaceyard rate, and 4.5 Billion pop planets get 100%.

Resource production looks like a sine wave.
It starts at 15% normal for 1M people, rapidly increases sine-wave style to a peak of almost 200% at 450M people.
It then follows a stretched (3x) sinewave back down to the minimum 10% resource production at anything over 2 Billion people.

Comments?

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

What's the logic behind the resource drop? I'd think it would be a pain in the butt to manage..

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

From most of the way down page 3:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>What's the reasoning for prod rate going down? Out of curriosity.<hr></blockquote> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The production would be going down as the planet gets paved over to support those 8 billion people.

I imagine resource extraction would rapidly rise until you hit 500-1500 million, then start to go back down again, in a lopsided wave shape when graphed vs population.

Notes:
(on planets with max pop close to optimum production pop)
-domed planets. The pop is concentrated in the domes, so most of the land is unspoiled.
-tiny breathable worlds. Low gravity would allow easy construction of tall buildings, so you don't waste as much surface area.<hr></blockquote>

So, I'm at the low end 500-1500 M.

And suggestions are welcome, since it is really easy to tweak any of the parameters.

Const numlevels = 12800 (12800 increments of 5M people = Sphereworld pop)
Const popbase = 1 (Million)
Const popincrement = 5 (million)
Const SYbase = 10 (%)
Const SYincrement = 0.1
Const Resbase = 10 (%)
Const ResPeak = 90 (90 increments of 5M people = peak at 450M)
Const ResPeakAmount = 100 (times approx. 1.9)
Const Resend = 400 (400 increments of 5M people = downto resbase at 2 Billion people.

PS: With those parameters, there will be 1641 pop modifiers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[jimbob]

For resource production,

So if I have a huge planet with zillions of mining facilities (presumably because the planet has lots of minerals) I'd have to keep exporting people from it, or I end up with extremely poor production? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Did I read that right?

If so, could the right hand shoulder of the graph plateau at a higher value (say 100%) so that the planet value doesn't crash so dramatically (the only other option would be for the player to invest significant time in micromanagement - assuing that he even knows how badly production drops off with high population values!).

[edit] - ohh, sorry I was writing this while you were already posting yours, so I hadn't read your response. Makes sense, I'd just suggest the higher final value, ie. 100% instead of 10%... sure things are paved, but there's more people to do the resource aquisition.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>sure things are paved, but there's more people to do the resource aquisition.<hr></blockquote>More people to work less land?
The way this works is to make domed worlds and tiny (very low gravity) worlds much better at producing resources than the Glass & Steel worlds that are great at spending those resources and/or doing research & intel.

The high-pop minimum could stand to be raised, but not to 100%! The falloff on the right happens between one and two Billion people, and we are talking infinitely sustainable resource production.

Also, we are not talking micromanagement, since you have a wide, 600 Million pop-wide window of &gt; 150%, and a 1 Billion pop-wide &gt;100% resource production.
Check on your colonies yearly, move people every two or three years...
(Unless we reduce the growth rate to realistic levels, then you only have to check your population every decade).

The final decision is of course up for a vote, but I would like to keep the right shoulder below 25%.

[Phoenix-D]

The space argument seems a little strange; most SE4 worlds hold less than Earth does right now, and we have by no means paved over the entire planet!

Besides, wouldn't things like mining and radioactives extracton be done mostly under the surface?

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The space argument seems a little strange; most SE4 worlds hold less than Earth does right now, and we have by no means paved over the entire planet!<hr></blockquote>Yeah, but we do have an above-average sized world (for a rock or ice planet), and we don't exactly have a sustainable economy.
Since the modifiers can't measure "%full", they will be off for exceptionally large/small worlds.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Besides, wouldn't things like mining and radioactives extracton be done mostly under the surface?<hr></blockquote>Yep. But you probably don't want them for neighbours. You might also have some problems with pollution, making it harder to work & extract & purify the resources.

Again, I want to say that you guys will have the final say on the settings...

[Fyron]

You know, if negative population growth modifiers on facilities actually worked, then you could have a "population control" facility that could lower the growth rate to a crawl, thereby eliminating the micromanagement for this. Alas, this does not work.

Anyways, I think 10% for the right end of the curve is way too low. I say that the right end should drop to 50%.

[Val]

So, what did y'all think of Legend of the Rangers?

Also, as to weapons:

I'm still working on tweaks this weekend and should post a better sheet on Monday, then we can talk tonnage and cost. In the updated sheets I'll have tech levels and such to help give an idea of where they fall. What I would like to do is come up with a Base tonnage and costs for each weapon and then adjust by percentages according to what level (I - X) the weapon is. I am also making the ranges change a bit to reflect the increased (and decreased at low end numbers) technology level. I have also gotten rid of a lot of the #DIV/0! errors, there are still some in there for weapons that aren't really weapons (like the Plasma Battery) that I will filter out to be components. I will also add a column for low power - uber power for guidance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

One weapon type you may notice is missing are missiles and torpedoes. I am working on those now as well, but I was trying to make it so you research various missile types then use mounts to adjust what type of missile rack it is (Long Range, Quick Fire, etc.).

Any other comments on the Weapon Platforms?


(Edit Note: Added comment on Missiles/Torpedoes)

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Rambie]

Val,

I made my comments at the Firstones.com forums. Check 'em out, overall most people there liked it.

But it was basically good... some things I didn't like but overall good. The holographic combat thing was getting old by the end of the show... I'd rather see a CGI of the ship firing it's weapons instead of that... but, I hope Sci-Fi will make a rangers series.

[ 20 January 2002: Message edited by: Rambie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: Mounts will not let you extend the range properly, and certainly won't do rapid-fire at all.

You should probably go with a 3D tech matrix, with dimensions of: Missile Propulsion, Warheads, and Missile Armor.
Tech Matrices are just cool; its like being able to custom-design your components, not just your ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif .

[Fyron]

Could you write a program that would allow somebody to make those 3d tech matrices? Coding a tech matrix manually would really, really suck.

[Suicide Junkie]

By Krsqk: (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004527)
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Recently, I've been working on developing a program to automate the generation of components, from 1-dimensional research to x-dimensional research. You input tech reqs, a base level for things like tonnage space and structure, cost, supply usage, ability values, etc., and give a rate of increase (or decrease) applied to the component at level up based on the levels of each technology.<hr></blockquote>

[Fyron]

Ahh, I hadn't seen that. Thanks!

[Val]

Thanks from me as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Rambie: I'll head over to FirstOnes.com to check it out.

Everyone:

Would y'all like me to post the latest mod info?

I could begin posting it in three pieces to avoid confusion:
1) One piece with all the races (neutral included and the intro pic - stuff that is not likely to change)
2) One with the data (AI, data, mod info - stuff that changes often)
3) One with sounds and other pics (components, planets, etc. - stuff that is being updated as we go along).


I spent a bit of time this weekend making beams and torps for the various weapons and doing more work on the weapons (filling them out) and am now working on supply costs. Then I will post for all to view and aid with costs and tonnage.

FYI: here is the most recent modinfo file -

1.49.12 - Added new formations (collected by Fyron). Added more event pics to replace existing SE IV pics. Fixed fision/fusion spelling error. Special thanks to Jay for creating some VB scripting to make the creation of the weapons easier! Added several new race names to EmpireNames.txt and added a Race Info file in the readme section with some details on the races. Eddited IntelProject file. Minor fix on Centauri_Portrait_Battleship.bmp. Added 60 new Beams & 10 new Torps for the new weapons (may need to convert some beams to torps after testing - also Beams 31,34,42,44 & Torp 41 are not yet being used). Added p361.bmp to planets for "Black Hole Star" pic.

1.49.11 - Added new events and event pics. Fixed error in Llort AI. Added Hyach EMP files. Fixed Jump Gate & Generic_TroopInfantry pics.

1.49.10 - Added 5 Neutral Races (Gaim & Llort done - Hurr, Grome & Yolu still being worked on). Rough work begun on Abbai, Brakiri, Drazi & Vree races. Added jump gate image to planets.bmp and changed warp points to refer to jump gate images.

1.49.09 - Changed "Ancients Engine/Tech" to "HyperspaceTap Engine/Tech". Added new Mine Mounts. Added Mine components and tech to appropriate data files. Put Med Bays, Troop cockpit, Sat/WP CPU cores back in (unchanged). Added Mephisto's latest AI changes on the Narn (all files) and EA (Speech file).

1.49.08 - Added Engine components and tech to appropriate data files. Work progressing on Weapons, Troops, Mines, Infantry, and Armor.

1.49.07 - Updated EA ShaipSet with Ramsie's latest and greatest.

1.49.06 - Added Hyach ShipSet. Fixed error in VehicleSize.txt file. Added a sub-folder in the Data folder with both the Q-N style and the normal style of movement (as well as adding the same two files with the neostandard shipset names). Working on Engines, Reactors & Weapons. SJ working on armor and repair factors. {Note: Will up damage to kill 1 point of Pop in settings to 100 to match upgraded damage once weapons are added}

1.49.05 - Added new EmperorNames, EmperorTitles, DefaultColonyTypes, DefaultDesignTypes, EmpireNames. Editted CompEnhancement.txt to give Weapon Platforms and Satellites greater ranges and added several new mounts. Changed VehicleSize.txt to meet new ShipSet standards. Editted TechArea.txt to accomodate editted VehicleSize.txt file. Working on Breaching Pods and Shuttles (Cargo and Boarding Parties for Fighter class ships).

1.49.04 - Fixed some discrepancies in EmpireNames.txt and EmpireType.txt files. Editted EmperorTitles.txt and EmperorNames.txt. Put in updated Vorlon shipset. Added Culture Mod (by Joe Skarupinski, Jourin. v.1.0) to Mod for more balanced cultures.

1.49.03 - Editted Settings.txt : Changed Maximum Number of Systems to 200, Maximum Trade to 40, Nuber of Quick Start Styles to 7. Added in title screen for B5 Project. Still need to change Lose.bmp, HumnDead.bmp, Victory.bmp and add additional races to quick start styles.

1.49.02 - Added a Babylon 5 map. Changed the SystemNames.txt file to have all B5 systems found on Babylon 5 map. Editted EmpireTypes.txt and EmpireNames.txt to include all the B5 empires.

1.49.01 - Compiled all currently available B5 races into a single zip.

[thorfrog]

Dude, talk about picking up the ball and running with it. Damb good work. I can't wait to see this completed.

Idea: I think the Vorlons and the Shadows should have poor population growth. This way their advanced technology is balanced by slow pop growth.

I say go ahead post what you have. I look forward to seeing all of the neutral races.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: atomannj ]</p>

[Val]

Funny you should mention the pop growth for the ancients.

My roommate and I were talking about it and came to the same decsision. I would like to bring their growth rate down even below what is typically allowed, which I can do for the AIs, but not sure how to do in EMP files. Maybe make a some new racial traits "Highly Prolific" and "Immortal" - make the immortals immune to plague and give a SLOW rate of growth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'll try to post all I have this afternoon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Another thing I was thinking about is creating a music CD (using stuff from B5 Music Page (http://www.musicofb5.com) ) and matching it up for the game (since we can tell the game what tracks to play). Does this interest anyone? We could zip all the files then Users would have to burn their own CDs.

[Val]

Ok, here is everything to date (aside from some junk in my wip folders - although I did include some WIP races) - Be warned that these are some big files:

1) This is the Core of the Mod - all the racial pics and the intro page (right now Rambie's) - 7.44 mb

B5Mod-Core.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011643573.zip)


2) This is the Data for the Mod - all AI, data folder, modinfo, emps, design names, readme files - .52 mb

B5Mod-Data.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011643775.zip)


3) This is the Extras/WIP for the Mod - Includes new Event pics, planets (jumpgate and black hole - bh not yet modded in), beams, torps, components. Since these are things that are likely to change in the days to come. They will eventually become part of the core with this third slot becoming updated and new events/components/planets/ships/etc. - 2.16 mb

B5Mod-Extras.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011643880.zip)

I have also included the weapons file (all weapons at level 6 for the example file) as it currently stands.

WeaponExample.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011643926.zip)

Finally, I have included the WIP races, which include a mix of stuff we have found. I would like to start fleshing out some of the LNAW member races (especially the Drazi) for use in the game. Any volunteers? - 3.66 mb

B5Mod-UnfinishedRaces.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011644014.zip)


Some other stuff that we could use:

Anybody up for redoing the following pics:

Centauri:
Troops, Weapon Platform, Drone, Infantry, Sat & Mine

Minbari:
Transport, Infantry & Mines

Narn:
Troops & Infantry

Rambie is working on the newest EA shipset as we speak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hope y'all enjoy!!!!

[Suicide Junkie]

I'm about ready to compile the list of population modifiers...
What should the maxed-pop resource production modifier be? 50%?
Once you decide, I can upload the results.

Remember that large planets can make full use of spaceyards, research & intel, even after they have bottomed out on resource production.

[thorfrog]

All I can say now is bring on the weapons. Will certain weapons be limited to certain races? I hope so. Vorlon and Shadow tech is limited to them only. Each race has a limited group of weapons. They have to trade to get other weapons.

[Val]

The very Last column of the excel sheet shows what race the weapon is for, though some weapons will be researchable by other races as they go through that tech to get to theirs.

I'm working on the tech tree (forest would be a better word) right now.

SJ:

So far it looks like 50% is the popular vote. Anybody want higher/lower?

[Andrés]

All weapon display are marked either as beam or torp, only direct fire weapons, no seekers.
Interesting...

[Fyron]

Legend of the Rangers was so sappy. I expected a lot more from the B5 team than that.

[Val]

Andres:

Actually, there are seekers, they just haven't been added as I hadn't decided how to do them at the time. SJ had made a good suggestion though so I am working on them now.

I have 12 missile types and 6 different missile mounts to add (or some combo there-of).

I also have 7 more torps to add.

The vast majority of weapons though (as you noticed) are beam. Trying to stay faithful to B5 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Idea:
If the seeker hitpoints are much lower than the ship's hitpoints, you could allow ships to fight Last-stands with pointdefense cannons. Keep the range short, but allow them to target anything.

The PDCs will do only superficial damage, but will help a little bit, maybe even knocking out a critical component.

PS: Val:
If you use the "skips armor" damage type, the shots will not skip the "armor", but they will ignore the emissive ability, and all but the first hit will pierce the grav deflectors.
Quad-to-Shields will reduce the effectiveness of grav deflectors, and emissive armor. (reduces effectiveness to 25%)

[Val]

Explain the seeker/pdf thing a little further (gotta run so I won't be replying till way later)

[Andrés]

How do you solve the problem with large engines and AI?
I had to remove the temporary large engine from the sci-fi crossover mod because AI always atempted to use it and coulndn't make coherent small ship designs.
I was thinking of making have a second tech requirement of ship construction or just put them in a second tech and don't make AI research them, making them still able to use many small engines in large ships.
Sorry I didn't check if you have already considered this.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How do you solve the problem with large engines and AI?<hr></blockquote>Set a "useless ability" on each of the engines (different ability for different size), with a value1 to indicate relative usefulness.
Then, you can call for one "star-unstable" Massive 200KT engine, with a couple "Minerals extraction" (Facility abil) 10KT filler engines.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Explain the seeker/pdf thing a little further (gotta run so I won't be replying till way later)<hr></blockquote>With the 10x scaleup of hitpoints, our ships have something on the order of 10,000 hitpoints.
Seekers have 50-100 hitpoints.
If PDCs can target ships as well, then any not used to fend off missiles can poke at ships.
Enough PDC to kill 70 missiles would be enough to wreck a Light Cruiser given the same amount of time for both tasks.

Its more of a "kitchen sink" desperation weapon, but could be useful.

Advanced armors will be able to shrug off the PDC with no effect, so you probably should give them a quad2shields damage type, allowing them to do some small amount of physical damage even in the endgame.

[Andrés]

The AI will attempt to place the best (biggest) when the design file calls for Minimun Speed and Desired Speed, it will look for engines and you can't change it for a "useless ability" here.
(Note it's called min and desired speed but it's actually the number of engines).
The only way would be to set them to 0 and always add all engines as a Misc Ability.
It would require mayor patching of the AI but it may work.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It would require mayor patching of the AI but it may work.<hr></blockquote>Exact same deal as with P&N.
I need to rebuild my AI patcher one of these days, and I can easily add support for multiple mods.

[Val]

To keep y'all up to date, and for your reading pleasure, here is the most recent list of weapons (total 1990 lines worth of weapons and components).

FullWeapList.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011818490.zip)

I've fleshed it out more and set it up for the eventual merge to a text doc (to be added to the components file). I also added the seekers - though I need some help in the images (I had initially thought it used the single image in the race_main.bmp) that seekers use. Anybody know?

This should give an idea of ranges, damage, abilities & supply usage. There is also a column at the end for what Race it is most commonly used by.

Let me know what y'all think!

I'm working on images for the components now.


Imp Fyron:

What formula were you going to use? I could plug it in and make it run for everything.

Everyone:

Does anyone have pics of any B5 related weapons? Close shots, tech prints, etc?

[Andrés]

I'd prefer to get a functional mod first and add the pictures later.

[Suicide Junkie]

Here's a 350KB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif text file to paste into Settings.txt. Population Modifiers.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011840587.zip)
(Zipped up to 7% size http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

This one uses a right-hand resource production limit of 50%, and runs right up to a maxed-sphereworld spaceyard modifier.

PS: I pasted it into P&N, and SE4 rolled right through the file like it wasn't there. No problems at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[geoschmo]

Um, I've just been lurking in this discussion, so forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what is the point of the Last 1000 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif modifiers all being 50. Isn't that redundant? Would you not have the same effect by stopping at the first break point that hit 50?

Geoschmo

EDIT: Oh crud. Soembody smack me. I see it now. There are different modifiers for production and construction. Duh.

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: geoschmo ]</p>

[thorfrog]

Is it possible to add political penalties if you use certain weapons? For example using Mass drivers, plant cracker beams, Drahk plaegue, or death cloud give you negative political points.

[Suicide Junkie]

That's automatic when playing against humans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

AI's don't really care, though.

[Val]

I do recall some sort of negative when using certain weapons. If it is possible, it will be done (had planned on it at least).

Also, I was going blind working on the weapons so I took a break and made some ships for the Gaim (7 ships) and added the Markab neutrals (with 2 ships, AI not done).

Update.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011890488.zip)

Does anyone know if a neutral uses ships from it's folder before going to the generic set?

Anybody know how seeker's refer to pics?

The tech tree is getting pretty involved, there is a common root of tech that all races can have and from there they can continue on the common thread or branch into their specialty weapons.

Oleg:

How is the soulhunter ship?

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Anybody know how seeker's refer to pics?<hr></blockquote>Below the "Flag" in an empire's shipset, you place a seeker image. Not sure which file, but it is part of the shipset.

[Val]

I know that there is a seeker image in the "Main.bmp" for each race, but I noticed some seekers give a number from 0-3 afterwards for the image number, does this choose from the different pics avaiable in the main.bmp? Do you know if a torp image can be used with a seeker object?

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't have a shipset with me, but there may be multiple seeker images in the same BMP with the flag & race mini & whatnot

[Val]

If you d/l the update file with the Gaim and Markab there is a Main.bmp (the one with the flag and seekers) in it to refer to.

[Suicide Junkie]

I see 3 missile images there, so what is the problem?

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Andrés]

Yes there are 3 seeker picture in every main.bmp. I made many of them.
I don't remember exactly what, but there was something funny with the number of seeker pics.
I think they start conting from 0 and from the left. In one ocasion a wrong number made the seeker look like a piece of the empire's flag.

[Fyron]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Imp Fyron:

What formula were you going to use? I could plug it in and make it run for everything.<hr></blockquote>

Umm, what exactly are you refering to? I think I forgot because I've been away for a few days.

[Fyron]

Also, what type of weapon is supposed to be the "standard" weapon type? In normal SEIV, the Anti-Proton Beam is the standard weapon that other weapons are judged by. It provides a good baseline for determining if a particular weapon is powerful, weak, average, or whatever. I was wondering which weapon would be a good one to use for this baseline in B5.

[Val]

Another small update, just added the other Gaim fighter, changed the settings file to use SJs pop mod and also put in two prelim weapon component pics - Heavy Laser and Medium Plasma Gun.

Update_2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1011972866.zip)

Also, there is another settings file called B5Settings that is setup to work with a B5 music CD I setup from MP3's I downloaded and turned into a audio CD. I compressed the CD and it is 67 megs (!!) so I am not posting it. I will be happy to provide the links and the order the tracks should be in for anyone who wants to download them. Also, I will copy the CD for anybody who sends me a blank CD w/return postage.


Fyron:

The formula of damage to tonnage you were talking about.

Also, I think the basis weapons are the particle weapons - lower end tech that every race will start with. Or we could use laser tech as the baseline as Narn/EA (and a few others) use that as their average tech.

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

IMO, the APB is not a good "standard": it is the strongest ranged weapon in the game, with 85% of the range of "artillery" guns.
The DUC is a much more reasonable weapon to compare with: average range, average damage, available early.
(I "fixed" the APB early in my mod) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A smallish Main Gun for one of the capital ships would be good to use here.
Then you get the long-reload heavy guns on one side, and the rapid-fire close-in guns on the other.

[Val]

The standard particle beam might be good then. It is the most common weapon on ships in the series. It isn't very strong, isn't too weak. Has the standard reload rate (1 turn) for most weapons. Range isn't too far, but more than most PDF weapons. It will also be one of the first weapons developed in research after the basics are covered.

[Fyron]

Val:

For the damage/rate/kiloton formula, here's my plan:

Pick values that you want the damage ratios to be for every weapon type at tech level 1. For weapons with variable damage, use the average damage for determining the ratio. Make the small weak guns have a ratio of 0.8, the medium/average guns have a ratio of 1.0, and the big, slow guns a ratio of 1.2. If you want a particular weapon to be more powerful, then increase it's ratio by a few tenths. For weapons with special damage types and to-hit bonuses, decrease the ratio by a reasonable amount. Then, do this:

Damage / Ratio / Rate = Kilotons

for each weapon to get the size you want. Make each tech level for that weapon be the same size.

And, voila! Weapons are nearly balanced from the start. Then, just do a bit of play-testing and tweaking to get the final values. Of course, my ratio values are hypothetical, and could be bad or unbalancing. The ratios I proposed are up for debate. What do all of you think?

SJ:

Yeah, I know the APB's are deadly. I just used it as an example cause its what most AI's use.

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

NP. Just making sure you don't take the ABP as the average weapon, and then sit there wondering why everything dies so fast http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

RE: Damage on artillery/maingun/close defense
IMO, you've got that backwards.

Big, slow guns should NOT have a higher rating than the small guns.
- the big gun does all its damage on the first turn, 1200, say.
- the little gun ship only does 800 damage by the time the big gun reloads.
- the big gun gets to fire first, at long range, so it may get to fire two or three times before the small guns close into range.
Not good.

The Massive guns should do pitiful damage (0.5), since they get to dish it all out on turn #1, possibly crippling the opponent and thus eliminating the threat. In any case, by the time the opponent closes to medium gun range, the big guns will be almost reloaded, and you may even get a second free punch.
The tiny guns need to do lots of damage (2.0). By the time you get close enough to use them, you are way behind in dealing damage, and need to catch up.

PS: you may notice in SE4 Classic, the Ripper beams do 2.0 ADU/KT/Turn, while WMGs do 0.67 ADU/KT/Turn.
Its all about making lots of different strategies viable.

[tesco samoa]

APB should be weaker...

DUC looks like it was designed for BAB5 right from the get go.

[Fyron]

So I mixed the ratios up. Big deal. I haven't played SEIV for a few weeks, so I just forgot. Big ratios for small weapons sounds more correct than what I said.

So is a range for the ratios from 2.0 for small guns to 0.5 for huge guns good with everyone?

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>So I mixed the ratios up. Big deal. I haven't played SEIV for a few weeks, so I just forgot. Big ratios for small weapons sounds more correct than what I said.<hr></blockquote>Hey, no problem. Just wanted to be sure.

[Val]

IF:

Thanks for the ratios (and subsequent correction)!

So what are we going with?
0.5 = Massive Gun
0.8 = Large Gun
1.0 = Medium Gun
1.4 = Small Gun
2.0 = Tiny Gun


I made a few more component pics over the weekend (ballistic, laser, particle & plasma weapons - and a few extras - mass driver, plasma battery, grapling hook). Now that I have the formula I'll plug that in and we should be that much closer to a Version of the modd with weapons, armor and engines unique to our Mod!!!

ComponentSample.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012235123.zip)

Opinion Time! -

What does everyone think so far?

What direction should we head?

Most important/least important to accomplish?

Hope y'all had a good weekend!!

[ 28 January 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Fyron]

Val, are you going to submit these components to the Image Collection Mod?

We have the weapons almost done, so now we should work on making defenses to counter-act them. Since there aren't any shields in B5, we could use the "shields" as an extra layer of armor. Make somwe high-powered weapons "phased" so that they can be partially armor piercing. Then, give the ancient races (Vorlons, Shadows, and maybe Minbari) phased shields for their armor. Or maybe make reinforced armor for all the races that has less physical hp, equal shield hps, and "phased shields".

Also, races will have to rely heavily on ECM for their defenses.

We should use the various cloaks and sensor types for different stealth/cloaking modes. There should be a lot of levels in cloaking technology, maybe 10. Give ECM components levels in Active EM Scanning cloaking. Give Combat Sensors levels in Active EM Scanning. This could simulate various levels of scanner jamming, which only has one level in SEIV. Make stealth devices available to everybody, which have Passive EM Scanning cloak. Give the Minbari +2 levels in this cloak at each tech level because they are masters at stealth technology. Allow "stealth scanners" to be researched. Give the Shadows level 8 Temporal Cloaking at the start. Allow them to research lvl 9 and 10, but make them very expensive. This would simulate their cloaking device, which can't be detected in B5. However, this could be really unbalancing in SEIV, so allow maybe the advanced races to research Temporal Scanners (very expensive) to combat this. Make a couple of Unique Ruins Techs that allow for level 8, 9 and 10 temporal scanners, so that it is possible to find First Ones tech that is capable of detecting Shadows. Are there other races with stealth/cloaking technology? If not, we can use Gravitic and Psychic cloaks and scanners as Unique Ruins Techs.

We could have a race of "First Ones" which would operate similar to the monsters being discussed and modded in the http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=003164 thread.

Make Vorlon and Shadow troop weapons and armor uber-powerful. They are energy-based, and it took about 20 people armed with PPG's to kill one Soldier of Darkness.

[Val]

I figured since SJ is coordinating the efforts for the compilation, I'd just pass them on to him here. I have quite a few more to do, so I will use the blank space wayyyyyy at the end http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'm also working on Facilities (Looking for suggestions for B5 facilities). I already gave him the beams and torps. I don't have any planets, but I would like to get the homeworlds (especially Zha'ha'dum) in the planet list.

Armor is being worked on by SJ, go back a few (5/6) pages to read about it (or ask him to reexplain).

The idea of setting up the other first ones as "Space Monsters" had been mentioned before (I think by Atomannj) and I think it's a good idea!

[Val]

Quick question, anyone know (off the top of their head) what the max number of systems in a game is? I'm thinking about restarting the B5 map and generating the universe according to B5 specs and then repositioning everything to match the map. This will save me the hassle of creating all the systems, I'll just have to recreate the jump points.

[thorfrog]

I believe the limit is 255 systems.

[Val]

That's what I thought... I was hoping it would be more so I could create "hyperspace" systems under the "realspace" systems. Guess I could move it to special quadrants like SJ did, though I wanted to keep the warp paths more consistant to the B5 game maps.

[Suicide Junkie]

IF: The current armor setup goes like this:

Most armors are actually inert internal components, that are extremely likely to be hit before any other components.
They come in 4 grades:
Structural: Extremely high HP/KT rating. Usually hit Last. Comes in 1KT chunks.
Light: high HP/KT. Usually hit before sensitive electronics, but after anything larger. Small chunks
Medium: moderate HP/KT. Usually hit before anything other than the large guns. Average sized chunks.
Heavy: low HP/KT (for armor). Approximates SE4 classic armor. Massive chunks.

Then we have the fancy high tech armor & items.
Shield generation + Crystalline ability forms the basis for things such as "refractive armor", "shadow armor", and "gravitic deflectors", all of which can knock off the first few points of damage from a hit.

To keep the ability levels on these armors from stacking too high on large ships, there are two Versions of each.
Primary X Armor: Limited to 1 per ship. Provides the full ability amount.
Additional X Armor: Unlimited amount, provides 10% to 25% of the ability amount of the primary, and is slightly larger & stronger.

That makes the additional plates more likely to be hit first, and means that a 1650KT ship will have only 2 to 3.5 times more special ability than a 150KT ship.

One thing I'm wondering is:
How much stronger should the armor get as tech improves?
Should it keep pace with weapons tech, or become relatively stronger/weaker?

[Val]

That's a good question... B5 weapon/shield tech wasn't too much a priority in the show, it seemed like new weapons were being developed throughout, but not much in the way of shield/armor. I would say it should keep pace with weapons tech in percentages, though I think it should be very expensive to research as you go up levels, maybe even require the person to research "Advanced Armor" tech before freeing up the next level of each armor group. Also, the armor/shields should plateau at some point before weapons do - in effect this will allow the weapons of a particular 'age' to outstrip armor from the same tech 'age' (Young v. Middle v. Old v. Ancient).

[Rambie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Val:
That's what I thought... I was hoping it would be more so I could create "hyperspace" systems under the "realspace" systems. Guess I could move it to special quadrants like SJ did, though I wanted to keep the warp paths more consistant to the B5 game maps.<hr></blockquote>

I wouldn't stress over hyperspace. I'd rather see a big map with plenty of systems to conquer than "hyperspace" systems.

Keep up the great work, it's looking great!

[Val]

I was thinking about layering another map under the existing map with the different warp points set distances from each other, this way it takes some time to move through hyperspace, rather than the instantaneous transfer. Would be much easier to have a move delay on jump points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Layering another map? Can two systems exist in the same spot on the map? Or were you making these "hyperspace" systems be in an adjacent spot to the system that they are supposed to represent?

[Suicide Junkie]

Two systems can be at the same location on the map, but the only thing that accomplishes is being a pain in the butt when trying to select systems.
Better to place them "up one and right one square" or somesuch.

[Val]

I had actually tested it out and put several HS systems 'under' the existing systems. The effect was that it WAS a pain to monitor the HS systems, unless you had a ship in it (then go through the ship list). The HS systems also allowed time to be chewed up on jumps, rather than the instantanious jumps in the current B5 Map. It worked well, just a ROYAL pain to create.

Also - anybody out there have any pics/closeups of any B5 weapons? I've completed ~60 or so to date, but I am having trouble with what some of the Gravitic (Brakiri) and Antimatter (Vree) weapons look like. Any pics would be of help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: RE hyperspace.

Since you're making a map in the editor anyways, why not create paths through hyperspace.

IE: fill up a "hyperspace" system with red storms, that dish out 5000 damage. Then, create a warppoint in, clear a path straight across (arbitrary number of squares), then a warppoint out to the destination.
Ships which veer off course get demolished by the storms, and you can make the travel time whatever you want.
If you use only one or two paths per hyperspace system, you can have the storm damage vary with distance from the path.

[Val]

SJ:

As always, full of good ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'll give it a try tomorrow night while I'm working on the map. I actually want to mod in a new quadrant type for B5 that will make more B5 race friendly systems, and also mod in the 'invisible' stars in nebulas, black holes and such.

Also, before I make the final weapons, what was decided for structural tonage values? Are we going for x10 still? Or have we given up on that due to the organic armor effect not working? I have to set the damage values up by x10 still as well if we go that way.

[Suicide Junkie]

I'd go with the SE4 scale damage. The whole point of the 10x was to get the regen right.

Might as well go with a normal scale.

[Val]

Wanted to make sure that we had given up on the repair ability for now - until they fix the armor stacking. SO, the numbers stay as they are. Do you have the armor/shield/ecm stuff ready?

[Suicide Junkie]

I've got the plans & some prototypes, and I'm trying to find a good balance between tech level, weapons, armor hitpoints, armor absorb %.
I need to run some more simulations... this armor is hard to tweak due to the way it works.

[Val]

Would you like the weapons to test with them? Or are you just testing it with the SE IV weaps for now?

[Suicide Junkie]

Using the B5 weapons has to be better than the SE4 standard ones.

[Suicide Junkie]

The current armor settings give the following results:
Ships
All: Bridge, 2x LS, 2x CQ, Aux. Con, 5x Heavy APB, 5x Quantum Engine.

Light: 6K hitpoints, 76 x 75hp light armor + 10x18 structural support.
Heavy: 4K hitpoints, 13 x 300hp heavy armor
Mixed: 5K hitpoints, 7x300hp(H) + 7x200(M) + 7x75(L) + 40x18(SS)

Heavy vs Light:
Heavy wins 5 of 15 battles.
Heavy wins 12 of 20 battles.
Heavy wins 7 of 20 battles. (one light-on-the-run)
Heavy wins 7 of 20 battles. (one tie, one heavy-on-the-run)

Heavy wins about 40%
How? Heavy armor blocks a higher % of damage. Light has a higher chance of losing critical components, such as weapons. With more surviving guns, the heavy can sometimes overcome the 2000 hitpoint difference to take a win.

Heavy vs Mixed
Heavy wins 27 out of 50, with one count of Mixed sucessfully running away.

Light vs Mixed
Mixed wins 23 out of 50, with two counts of Light running away.

7 on 7 fleet action!
(Fire until weapons gone, 50% damage strategy)
Heavy vs Light: Light loses half on average.
Heavy vs Mixed: Mixed loses half on average.
Mixed vs Light: Light loses half on average.
Note: in 1 of 10 cases, the underdog team won the battle, or stalemated at 1 on 1!

I tactical'd one of the heavy-vs-lights, and the results were:
All heavies destroyed.
Light 1: OK.
Light 2: 30% damage. 26 armor, 2 engines lost.
Light 3: Totally Destroyed.
Light 4: 14% damage, 13 armor lost.
Light 5: 60% damage. 51 armor, 5 APBs, 1 Crew quarters lost.
Light 6: Totally Destroyed.
Light 7: 18% damage. 15 armor lost.

Plenty of Collateral damage for everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I can't say anything about the quality of the tactics (all on auto), but there could have been a couple rammings by otherwise-disabled heavy ships.

I expect the armor-penetration to rise when the large engines & weapons are included, posibly tipping the balance towards heavier armor, but who knows http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Fyron]

What would happen if you, say, used 50% light armor and 50% heavy armor?

[Suicide Junkie]

50% by mass or by hitpoints or by space used? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, how about making the Structural Supports zero KT, 5 hp, and $25 each?
2,000 extra hitpoints cost 10,000 resources.

[Fyron]

I was talking about by space used. With 200 kilotons of armor, use 100 for light armor and 100 for heavy armor. What would that so?