Babylon 5 Mod

[Suicide Junkie]

I'll get some more results for you in about 8 hours.

Val: could you post some example weapons for me to use? Just one light, medium and heavy gun would do. I need to get a rough size & hitpoint value in order for the test to be accurate.

[Val]

I'll post some average weapons in each department for you this afternoon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

Sorry, haven't had a chance to post much today or get the weapons up for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Massive project at work that the due date was moved from 2/8 to 2/1, and they only let us know Last night - typical!

I will try to get some posted this weekend - though it will more likely be Monday - I'm really sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

On the brighter side my OT more than pays for the new cable modem I wanted to get http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

No prob. Could you mention what the hitpoints of the typical classes of guns & engines are? That's all I need.

[Andrés]

I mentioned this in the Sci-Fi crossover mod, but probably you didn't see it.
Starwars engines are: first Atomic Drive, then Implosion Drive, and finally HK Ion Drive.

Now it would be nice if atomic drives were similar to b5 fission engines and ion drives similar to standard ion engines.
Would it be ok to make fission engines worse?
I was thinking of 1.5 times size and cost.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now it would be nice if atomic drives were similar to b5 fission engines and ion drives similar to standard ion engines.
Would it be ok to make fission engines worse?
I was thinking of 1.5 times size and cost.<hr></blockquote>You want the fission drive to be weakened, so it matches up with an "atomic drive".

Is there any reason why the "atomic drive" must be fusion? It could be a fission drive and still be called "atomic"

Also, SW engines can't be designed into B5 hulls, and vice versa, so there is really isn't any point of comparison except the final speed of the ship, which depends on many other factors.

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Somebody tell me what the problem here is:
All ships defaulted on design to "Optimal Firing Range".

I edit the Optimal firing range strategy, and set targeting priority to "Least damaged, Least damaged, Least damaged, Least damaged."
I uncheck "damage targets until weapons gone".

Simmed combat: Every freaking ship attacks the same target, and pounds the crap out of it until the weapons are gone or it is destroyed.

I check the "damage until weapons gone"

Combat again: Same stupid thing.

What am I doing wrong here? Does the simulator just ignore strategies or something?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Fyron]

The simulator is screwed up. Don't trust it to test strategies and ship designs under computer control, because it often doesn't work properly.

Also, I don't think that giving the ships multiple targeting priorities that are the same is a good idea. It might confuse the AI.

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Andrés]

Atomic Drives are described to use a fission reactor to generate electromagnetic waves that reflect off the space-time fabric of realspace, creating momentum. They are extremely radioactive, and must be stored in a pod that is kept away from the living and working areas of the rest of the ship.

Implosion Drives and High-Pressure Implosion Reactors emit an intense gravitic field that dimples the space-time continuum of realspace, causing the vessel to move. These engines are extremely high-maintenance drives.

Both of them are also described to be out-dated and not in use anymore.

And what everybody uses now are Hoersch-Kessel Ion Drives that use a power source to generate ions, which are expelled through an exhaust nacelle to create thrust. The fuel is first broken down into nuclear energy and converted to ions. These ions are then expelled from the ship, which causes the ship to move in the direction opposite the thrust. Given that the H-K Ion Drive creates radioactive nuclear energy, any ship that is equipped with one must require towing or the addition of a repulsorlift to travel within a planet's atmosphere. Their use is extremely widespread, and they are low-maintenance drives.
And they Solar Ionization or "Fusion" Reactors to feed them. These reactors are strange because they are described to be fusion reactors that can use any fuel as power source, but are more efficient with heavy metals.
The one that first wrote about them didn't know what fusion means.
It's been corrected later by just saying that the word "fusion" doesn't mean nuclear fusion, but some other kind of reaction such as fusing matter into hypermatter (whatever that means).

I just thought that it would make the mod more consistent if similar devices that work with the same principle were similar.
The problem is that Fission Engines in the B5 mod are not only equivalents of standard Ion Engines in performance but also cheaper in price.

I was thinking about making Atomic Drives 1.5x price and size, Implosion Drives 2x in price and supply usage and HK Ion Drives equivalent of standard Ion Engines and get cheaper at higher levels.

[Suicide Junkie]

PS: Sorry to all the modem-Users out there. This is a tad long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Also, I don't think that giving the ships multiple targeting priorities that are the same is a good idea. It might confuse the AI.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, I was just angry.

++++++++++++++
"The fuel is first broken down into nuclear energy and converted to ions." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
"Given that the H-K Ion Drive creates radioactive nuclear energy" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
"The one that first wrote about them didn't know what fusion means." I can tell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Let me see if I can convert that stuff into something high-school physics students can believe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Atomic Drives are described to use a fission reactor to generate electromagnetic waves that reflect off the space-time fabric of realspace, creating momentum. They are extremely radioactive, and must be stored in a pod that is kept away from the living and working areas of the rest of the ship.<hr></blockquote>OK, we have a fission drive. Possibly using uranium/plutonium type materials. Naturally very dirty, and leaves toxic, radioactive materials as waste.
The distance from living areas makes sense, since you want to keep the weight of shielding material (heavy water or thick lead bulkheads) down. You don't want to have to haul to much of that around.
The actual propulsion would suck if you just directed EM radiation out the back. You're spending lots of energy, but not getting much momentum. Use the energy of the atomic decay to fling the waste atoms out the back. Much more momentum, for less energy expenditure, and you don't have to store the waste.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Implosion Drives and High-Pressure Implosion Reactors emit an intense gravitic field that dimples the space-time continuum of realspace, causing the vessel to move. These engines are extremely high-maintenance drives.<hr></blockquote>If we accept the ability to generate gravity, then OK. The ship gets a forward push, and the reaction would be to give all the objects behind the ship the same force in the opposite direction. The thrust of a ship or fleet, spread out among half the stars, planets and nebulae in the universe; nothing noticable happens to them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>And what everybody uses now are Hoersch-Kessel Ion Drives that use a power source to generate ions, which are expelled through an exhaust nacelle to create thrust. The fuel is first broken down into nuclear energy and converted to ions. These ions are then expelled from the ship, which causes the ship to move in the direction opposite the thrust. Given that the H-K Ion Drive creates radioactive nuclear energy, any ship that is equipped with one must require towing or the addition of a repulsorlift to travel within a planet's atmosphere. Their use is extremely widespread, and they are low-maintenance drives....
<hr></blockquote>Well, it looks like a step backwards in technology (gravity manipulation down to ion drives???), but what the hey.
Ions are easy to generate with electricity.
Ions are easy to fling out with electricity.
We get the electricity from a nuclear reactor. Since the end products are radioactive, we do not have a fusion reactor as we know them.
Fusion reactors don't generate fuel. Something that looks tangentially like fusion would be the formation of a Bose-Einstein condensate (http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/bec/).
At the very least, you would have a insanely high density fuel source.
Now, we've got a nuclear reactor with ultra-potent fuel to drive our ion engine.
Along with a more efficient (likely superconducting) ion manipulation, you get a cheap, high-power density drive. Certainly not the ultimate in fuel efficiency (0.1%), but you can pack in tons of BEC fuel.


+++++++++++++++

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I was thinking about making Atomic Drives 1.5x price and size, Implosion Drives 2x in price and supply usage and HK Ion Drives equivalent of standard Ion Engines and get cheaper at higher levels.<hr></blockquote>Forget about size as a defining characteristic.
Make it "movement points per KT", "$ per movement point", and "supplies used per movement point".
You can then easily find the stats for biggie-sized drives of the same type. (EG: 3 large main engines & 4 smaller engines. (http://home.earthlink.net/~scottpasko/NewImages/StarDestroyer.jpg))

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The problem is that Fission Engines in the B5 mod are not only equivalents of standard Ion Engines in performance but also cheaper in price.

I was thinking about making Atomic Drives 1.5x price and size, Implosion Drives 2x in price and supply usage and HK Ion Drives equivalent of standard Ion Engines and get cheaper at higher levels.<hr></blockquote>From what you posted before, and what I've translated, the difference between the Fission engines and the HKIDs would be the fact that the HKIDs can store 1000x more supplies

Atomic drives == fission engines.
Basic average engine.

Implosion drives == gravitic drives
More MP/KT, but much higher cost, maybe lower fuel efficiency.

HK Ion drives ?? fission engines
(SW only) Slightly more MP/KT than Atomic drive, but nearly unlimited supplies, and almost zero maintenance.

Antimatter powered drives:
(B5/trek) Lower Supplies/MP, average size/MP, expensive

"Hyperspace taps", I have no idea about.

I could imagine that SW engine technology stagnated when no-maintenance engines came out.
If, when you bought a car, it came with 10 years of gas, and wouldn't break down, alternative engine technologies would be unlikely to progress. They could make them beefier, but just not any more efficient.

+++++++++++++++++

B5 & trek forked off on a different path, squeezing every drop of fuel efficiency possible.
I don't think B5 has antimatter widespread, just clean & efficient (though large) fusion reactors.
Antimatter, of course is 100% fuel to energy, and the Romulan singularity (aka Black Hole) ("Hawking Reactors", I believe) are too.

The tradeoff between antimatter & black holes is:
- antimatter is relatively safe, and can be stored passively.
- holes use any fuel; even dirty socks & toxic waste will do.

Both have no waste, theoretically, but the "Dilithium" used as a catalyst eventually wears out into toxic "Trilithium".

[ 03 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Andrés]

This is OT in the B5 mod thread. I'm posting my answer in the Sci-fi Crossover Mod thread.

[Suicide Junkie]

RE: popmodifiers.

I played a game of P&N using the pop modifiers, and I found 2 things:

1) Not sure when it appeared, but SY rate starts increasing dramatically once the Production rate hits the right shoulder. (bug)
2) The complex function used for production dipped below the right shoulder value for a few million people at the end. (bug)
3) 50% production for &gt;2Billion pop is annoying.

So, I've:
- Unbent the SY rate. 100% production at about 2.25 Billion.
- upped the shoulder production to 100%
- tweaked numbers so production peaks at 245%.

New popmodifiers.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012755011.zip)

Gameplay is pretty cool. I've got two systems of nearly useless outlying colonies, and there are very few ships in the game right now...
A few turns ago, my entire military attacked the AI beside my nearest colony system. After two battles, the casualties were up to:
- 2 MB Destroyers (RIP)
- 1 Repair Destroyer (RIP)
- 1 Enemy LC (Rammed, RIP)
- 1 Enemy LC (Rammed, 90% damage)

The enemy has planted a colony one system from my homeplanet, among 4 of my colonies, and has one LC poking around, but is unwilling to attack the missile platforms (ShieldBuster + CSM missile) on my colonies.

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: Regarding the engines in the B5data zip you posted back on the 21st.

After scaling back from the 10x hitpoints thing, the Huge engines will still have 400HP.

That means that they will act as armor, for the armor.
That is, until the large "ability armors" come out, like refractive armor.

I don't know if you want it that way or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

SJ:

Been a long weekend of data compilation for work and working on the components in between to give myself a mental break http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Here are a few weapons - Light, Medium, Heavy and Spinal Lasers, Interceptor Array and Standard Particle Beam. The tech levels are not set to their 'final' levels, just 1-10 on each to make it easier to integrate into a test. Tonnage is also still be worked on.

SJ_Lasers.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012845678.zip)

Anyway, you're right, we should lower the value on the engines to below the armor chunks - what would you suggest for the dif components (sizes)?

Everyone:

This update brings the B5 mod in line with the 'official image collection' - assuming I placed everything down the page far enough not to mess with SJs current data. There is also an updated data file for the SectType.txt to refer to the new JumpGate and Black Hole loacations on the planets map. The components now have most of the laser, plasma, ballistic and particle weapons in - I included the WIP weapons for y'all to get a peek at as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Update_Components.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012846093.zip)

Just rechecked the update, somehow I forgot to include the planets - I'll upload tomorrow. To make it work for now, just change the blackhole center pic to Planet_0542 and the jumpgate to Planet_0541. I will upload the others tomorrow!

That was one heck of a conversation on engines - gotta go over to the Sci-Fi thread and finish reading up on it.

[Suicide Junkie]

The engine sizes can stay the same, just reduce the hitpoints.

With this armor system, the weaker the component, the longer it survives http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

What HP values would you suggest? Since you have the best idea of how the armor works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Its a give and take deal.
I'm still trying to find some good values for the armor.

Currently, light, medium and heavy have 75/200/300 hitpoints, so fitting the medium and heavy engines in at 75 - 200 hitpoints might be good.
Placing major internal components around the 100 hitpoints mark would probably be good, too. Crew quarters/Lifesupport should probably be at least 40 hitpoints, since they're diffuse.

[Val]

SJ:

Will do!

How long before you think you'll be able to send armor samples to include in the Tech & Comp files? (I know you're pretty busy with everything else on top of this.)

Do you want more weapons to test with?

Everyone:

Anyone else working on anything?

[Suicide Junkie]

Holy Miniscule Masers, Batman!
Those things are puny!

I was thinking on a completely different scale: 25 times stronger!

PS: Spelling: "Fission", and "Fusion". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

++++++++++++++++

Argh! I can't even design a ship worth simming. The weapons are tissue paper, while the engines and reactors are solid neutronium.

How is this supposed to work, anyways?
"Spinal laser hits for 30 damage. Main reactor down to 99.75% efficiency"

We need to set some scale here (Note: this is just for hitpoints/damage, everything else should be OK).
I suggest:

- - Scale up weapon damage by 3x. A heavy laser cannon X then does 180 - 216 damage @ reload 4 (They're supposed to melt right through capital ships, right?)

- - Scale up weapon hitpoints by 25% to 50% (so they are at the right depth in the armor)

- - Scale armor down by 5x.
Structural: 0KT, 3-4 HP
Light: 1KT, 10 HP
Med: 3KT, 25 HP
Heavy: 7KT, 50 HP

- - Throw out reactor/drive hitpoints.
- Reactor Hitpoints can range from 5-30 hitpoints for tiny through Massive reactors. Size is arbirtary.
- Drive hitpoints can range from 20-40, since they are nessesarily on the outer edge of the ship, and thus exposed to weapons fire.
- (Remember. All it takes is one little hole, and suddenly you've got a big problem)

- - Other components should have their hitpoints set according to their exposure.
- Large surface targets should be around 40.
- Small internals can be down near 7.
- Large internals or small surface components should be close to 20.

++++++++++++

PS: I have no idea what's going on with the high tech reactors...
Going from fission to fusion doubles the supplies/KT. But, the rest just seem to get more expensive and change hitpoints http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Val]

This would be why we test http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I was having the same problem, once I added in the armor sample you gave earlier I managed to 'almost' hurt a ship. Let me up everything and resend you the weapons I sent. I will post in a couple hours!

Fission and Fusion - correct?

Also, here are the planets:

Planets.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012921253.zip)

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

[WeaponComponents.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013015337.txt)

&lt;Fixed as per above&gt;

Here are the revised weapons along with a few more to compare(Light-Heavy Laser, Spinal Laser, Interceptors I&II, Ballistic Missile, Medium Plasma Gun, Slicer Beam, Lightning Cannon, Neutron Laser & Standard Particle Beam) - they all now use one tech (for testing purposes) called B5 Weapons.

so add:

Name := B5 Weapons
Group := Weapon Technology
Description :=
Maximum Level := 10
Level Cost := 5000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

to TechArea.txt as well.


Also, can you send me what you have for Armor/ECM when you get a chance? Thanks!

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

Ok, here is the revamped Tech Areas for the above components:

TechArea.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012939736.txt)

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: in all of those new reactors, the output in the description does not match the actual ability amount.

Working on merging what you've sent already...
No go.

SE4 chokes on:
Tech Area Req 1 := Fission Research
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := 1
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 :=
Tech Level Req 3 :=
and its in all of the components...

[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

I have the B5 Sensors & ECM (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1012957603.txt) ready.
NOTE: I stuck the four additional tech areas in at the top of the file, and the components are a page or two below.
I also need "sensors" and "combat support" to go up to at least tech level 8, and I've noted that in the file.

The scale of the modifiers might need to be increased for the SF-crossover mod, depending on how powerful the other race modifiers are.
I kept these to a maximum of +/-56%, so you can't evade 100% of the shots from point blank range just because you've got great ECM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .


PS:
Regarding racial armors.
Between shadow, vorlon, minbari, and the refractive armor, is there any serious difference aside from tech level (ability amount) and paint job?

If not, should the component images progress through the colors of each, or should there be a choice of any color at each level?

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Val]

Sorry, was merging during a 15 min break at work and didn't have SE IV to test run the components. I'll check the sheet and remerge. How were the weapons?

Good call on the ECM - hated missing something when they were almost in the same square!

Vorlon armor is able to 'heal' damage and Shadow armor is able to absorb and shunt off a certain amount of damage. Other than that they are also both more advanced (obviously) than the other races armors.

Minbari armor is just a more advanced Version of the same stuff you find on the EA and Narn and Centauri ships (well, dif material but same as far as SE IV would be concerned). It's their jammers that make them tougher than nails http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you want, once we have the basic armor pics made I can easily recolor armor for the major races (EA & Narn - Grey, Centauri - Purple, Minbari - Blue) or we can have the armor progress through the colors, it's your call!

[Val]

ReactorComponents.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013015296.txt)

EngineComponents.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013019194.txt)

Fixed the Engines & Reactors - I had accidently set the same merge field in two locations!

WeaponComponents.txt (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013015337.txt)

Fixed the weapons - one of the family names had a decimal point and the seeker speeds and damages weren't there

[ 06 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

I just did a quick sim with your ECM and the weapon samples (sans armor) and it was quite a bit different! Took 1 Cruiser armed with the Shadow slicer, stacked elite sensors and 2 PDFs against 4 Cruisers with 2 Lrg Lasers, 2 Med Lasers, 1 PDF, 2 Basic Missiles and stacked advanced sensors. The slicer beam was ripping the opposition to shreads! Can't wait to add armor and give this a shot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now it's almost time to concentrate on the AI - any takers?

[Suicide Junkie]

Note to the AI takers: if you want a quick utility to run through any file and make repetitive, boring changes, AND the rules are too complex to use the search-replace method, just ask http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Something like "add engine ability calls to all designs that are allowed to have them" (and increment "num ability calls", and use the right "spaces per item ##") could be worth a program, and would give me a reason to work on the required/related parts of my AI Patcher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

EVERYONE:

Trying to come up with a list for all the B5 components to be added and all the B5 facilities, here is what I have so far:

Shadow - Living CPU - I thought we could use the master computer for this, to represent the living human used to pilot the ships.

Everyone - Shipboard Teep - Telepaths to combat Living CPU, equiv to a virus.

Everyone - Automation - Components to cut down on number of Crew Quarters and Life Support.

Everyone - Scanners - Should we use the existing scanners or create new ones?

Minbari - Jammer - SJ, could you integrate this into the ECM? Should make locking on to a Minbari ship twice as hard and also mess up sensors. There should also be something to counter this for the Ancient races and can be researched by others to null.

Centauri - Cloaking - Fighters and Destroyers (and smaller) are able to cloak to a degree. The fighters are more true stealth, while the Destroyers just had a Chameleon suite to mess with sensors.

Torvolus (Ancients) - Cloaking - This is 'true' cloaking, thinking about using cloaking as it is but expanding out past what 'normal' sensors can detect.

Everyone - Colonize - Want to remove Gas Giant colonies from being researchable unless someone plays a GG race (of which there are none in the B5 mod). I see Ice colonization more as 'waterworld' colonization, which would be more conceivable.

Everyone - Jumpgate construction - Want to change the open wormhole to a base only component and make it bigger and more expensive. Then you will have to build the base at the location and activate the component to open the point. I would like it to also destroy the base to represent the material used for the gate. I also might make a shipboard component that is REALLY big and can only fit on the large explorer ships (since it is mentioned that EA Explorer ships could make gates).

Everyone (Especially Raiders) - External Fighter Rails - I was thinking we could use the armor ability to represent the vulnerability of these components (they should almost always be hit first as they are exposed). The tradeoff is the ability to carry more fighters for less internal space.

Everyone - External Supply (Cargo) Pods - Same as above.

Everyone - Gravity - I was thinking about 3 classes: None, Gravity Generators, Artificial Gravity. These would give the ships bonuses/penalties to hit/defense to encourage their inclusion and research.

Everyone - Elite/Expert Crew Types - Different components to give different bonuses to a ship (eg: Crack Security Team - Double the efficiency against boarders)

ALSO:

Wanted to add some mounts -

Improved Weapon (less space, less supply, more intitial cost)

Advanced PDF (increases to hit and damage)

Advanced Weapons (standard SE IV mounts)

[Val]

SJ:

What extra abilities should I add to the Reactors and Engines to make the AI modding easier? I can easily add and regen the text!

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't have abilities.txt with me right now, but the ones I can think of OtToMH:

- mineral/organic/rads resource generation (not remote, the facility kind)
- star - unstable
- warppoint turbulence
- system movement random/to center

One should be saved for adding comments to components, such as in P&N, where "star unstable" is used to write "+30% accuracy" on the WMG description.
Then, we need one for every reactor size below the max that the AI will ever use.
We also need one more for every engine size below max that the AI will use.

[Val]

CPU_Teep_Med.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013273570.zip)

Here are tech areas, components and pics for the Shadow Living CPUs, Shipboard Telepaths & revised Med Bays (plus Ruins Tech - Cure for Nano Plague & Advanced Med Bay). - SJ still working on adding more components, but used your most recently posted one.

Having trouble with adding Racial Tech. Wanted to add Shadow Racial Tech the Racial Traits, which works fine, but when I start the game to play (regardless if I choose it or not) the main screen (with the planets and everything) is Black! Anyone have this trouble? I wanted to make them unique #44, but even if I made them #7 it didn't seem to work.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Having trouble with adding Racial Tech. Wanted to add Shadow Racial Tech the Racial Traits, which works fine, but when I start the game to play (regardless if I choose it or not) the main screen (with the planets and everything) is Black! Anyone have this trouble? I wanted to make them unique #44, but even if I made them #7 it didn't seem to work.<hr></blockquote>It seems to be a quirk with SE4. Try starting a new game without quitting, and this time the map should appear properly.
I find that only happens once each time you muck with the racial traits. Dosen't happen again after that.

[Val]

SJ:

Thanks, that did the trick! Of course, the emp files don't work once you change the Racial techs - ah well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


Everyone:

Ok, added over 90 new component pics to the mod (including Vorlon, Shaodw, Matter, PDF & Planetary Weapons, Reactors & Engines, Elite Crew Components - still working on these - & Ship Boarding/Defense). Took all data files from below and compiled into the B5 mod Data folder (also in this update). There are only a handful of weapons right now, but you can cut & paste the original SE IV weapons into the file to make it more playable. Living CPUs & Shipboard Teeps working well. Reworked Engines and Reactors to make larger models more worthwhile. Added SJs newest Pop modifiers. In all it is playable, just doesn't have the all the weapons (has 9 wpns) or any armor added yet.

B5ModUpdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013380549.zip)

Also added another 10 weapons to my test group.

Getting very close to done! Who knows, we might just beat Gold http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

Before anyone points this out, just realized I accidently genned out the Med Bays to X and Advanced Med Bay to 15. To make the Drahk plague work properly, delete Med Bays V-X and in the text for the Advanced Med Bay change all '15's to '5's. In effect, this makes a plague level 5 the Drahk plague and it can only be cured by finding the 'Cure for Nano-Virus' in a ruins. Another thing to mention, the plague bombs go from I-X, but only achieve Plague 4 (with varrying damage and range) and the Drahk Plague I-X goes from Plague 3 to 5, allowing them to start with a more powerful plague than anyone can easily cure right away (if they choose to use it) and lets them develop the dreaded Plague 5.

[thorfrog]

Looking real good! How about Narn Energy Mines? They are basically very powerful point defense weapons & light anti-ship weapons. They should have a reload rate of 2. They should also have a medium range. Damage should go from weak to strong. This is because this weapon is like a plasma energy torpedo. Higher yeild warhead at farther distance. Ex: Energy Mine I 0 10 20 30 40 50 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

It can be used for both fighter/drone defense and light anti-ship.

[Val]

The Energy Mines are in the main list of weapons that are still being tested, and I am also still working on the pic and torp for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I actually found a schematic (I'm beginning to feel like a geek) of an Energy Mine launcher to base the weapon on. I should have that and MANY more weapons in the next update.

What I do need now is someone to find me some sounds for each of the weapons. I know there are sites out there and have visited quite a few, I want to know if anyone has any sounds or is willing to get them from the net for the Mod?

[thorfrog]

Cool. Glad to hear that will be implemented. This looks to be shaping up very well. I wonder how difficult it will be to convert over to SE:IV gold ed. Either way I'm pretty siked. Bring on the Shadows.

[Val]

SJ:

Would you be able to add another 2 levels to the ECM and Targeting (above Elite)? Would request you add Ancient class, to keep them one notch ahead overall (will only be researchable by Ancient Races).

Also, what do y'all think about Sensors? How should they be handled? I was thinking of combining the sensor abilities into all-in-one snesors and adding Psychic Sensors to the Shipboard Telepath and giving it to the Ancient Version of sensors. Cloaking is pretty much non-existant other than some ancients and the Centauri/Strieb (could also consider the Minbari Jamers), so there won't be much of that available. We could give all mines and sats a cloaking component to make them harder to detect. Opinions?

[Val]

Added Jump Gates to the Mod:

Update7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013536465.zip)


Made a new ship type (Jump Gate) that required 99% colony modules and 50 engines to move. Then made a component that had Create Warp Point ability, 50 Standard move(engines), ability to generate/store supplies (reactor) and colony-gas (though I should probably change that to Rock). This creates a ship that can only move 1 space a turn and can only carry the Jump Gate module - with 5 tons to spare. Once the warp point is created, the component is destroyed - so the ship will no longer have supplies or engines. The Last 5 tons is reserved for a self destruct device (now only 5 tons instead of 10), so you can destroy it after it is activated.

If this is popular (ie if y'all like it) then I will add another 4 levels of the gate to increase jump range.

I know another ship could repair the component right now, so how do I set it so it can only be repaired at a planet or so the ship destructs on the use of the Warp Component?

I originally had the Gate component take up all the space except just enough to get two large engines on it (which made it move 1), and had made the supplies part of the Gate component so when the gate component was destroyed on use - no more supplies. But, the ship could still move one space per turn (as you would expect).

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

"or so the ship destructs on the use of the Warp Component?"

You can't. You also can't prevent other ship types from loading the module, unless you make the jump ship and module much bigger than any other ship class.

Phoenix-D

[Val]

Already though of the size thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It's 4995 tons - too big to mount on even a StarBase (and it is a Ship only component) in this mod.

I was trying to use the unique components but couldn't find it in the abilities.

Update7.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013536465.zip)

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

I'm trying to make a jump engine now, and would like to use the Unique Component option (so I can limit it to certain ship sizes) but can't seem to get it to work. Anybody play with this before?

SJ:

Have you tried out the new weapons and components with the armor yet? How's it working? Do you need a larger sampling of weapons to test against? Check in the Image Mod Request thread for all the latest armors - are those enough images or am I missing some?

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Would you be able to add another 2 levels to the ECM and Targeting (above Elite)? Would request you add Ancient class, to keep them one notch ahead overall (will only be researchable by Ancient Races).<hr></blockquote>The ECM bit should be taken care of by the advanced armors. The Targetting thing could be built into their weapons.


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I know another ship could repair the component right now, so how do I set it so it can only be repaired at a planet or so the ship destructs on the use of the Warp Component?<hr></blockquote>How about restricting mobile space yards in the same way? If you want to repair your gate generator, you'll have to build another very expensive ship. Make the spaceyard quintuple maintenance if you want to allow it on regular ships.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Vorlon armor is able to 'heal' damage and Shadow armor is able to absorb and shunt off a certain amount of damage. Other than that they are also both more advanced (obviously) than the other races armors.

Minbari armor is just a more advanced Version of the same stuff you find on the EA and Narn and Centauri ships (well, dif material but same as far as SE IV would be concerned). It's their jammers that make them tougher than nails

If you want, once we have the basic armor pics made I can easily recolor armor for the major races (EA & Narn - Grey, Centauri - Purple, Minbari - Blue) or we can have the armor progress through the colors, it's your call!<hr></blockquote>
Hmmm. I'm thinking that the armor tech should work something like SE4 classic engines:
A series of price decreases, then a step up to the next grade of armor.
EA-&gt;Narn-&gt;Centauri-&gt;Minbari-&gt;Older Race tech-&gt; Ancient race tech...
That would be good for a tech progression, but the question is, how do we handle the starting levels for the different races.

The other option would be to go with a split.
EA -&gt; Narn -&gt; Centauri -&gt; Cheap Version Shadowy-type stuff
EA -&gt; Narn -&gt; Minbari -&gt; Cheap Version Vorlonish-type stuff
or even:
Basic-&gt; EA -&gt; Centauri -&gt; ... (crystalline-effect stuff)
Basic-&gt; Narn -&gt; Minbari -&gt; ... (organic armor-effect stuff)

-------------
As you may have noticed, I've been pretty busy lately. I've also been hunting for that elusive crashing bug that has to do with sphereworlds full of units.

[Val]

SJ:

Yeah, been pretty busy myself between this and the rest of life (how dare life interfere with SEIV) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

One thing to note, EA and Narn armor are pretty much the same, even the Centauri armor isn't all that much better - could just be a higher level of the same stuff. The Minbari armor is a bit more advanced then that, but still no healing or absorbtion. The only real differences I can think of were the White Star & Excalibur - which both used partial Vorlon Tech. I just included them for RP value http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But the progression levels do make sense, I like the idea of a split in directions, but if a race is to get low level Vorlon or Shadow armor they should need the tech area "Shadow/Vorlon Assistance" (which I was using to give low level weapons research to younger races). Also, I've been trying to make it so the Ancients wil still always be a bit better tech wise even at the end - don't know if everyone agrees with that or not, but I didn't see humans getting to ancient level in the span of the game - the Minbari had barely advanced in 1000 years between Shadow wars! So, there will be an racial ability called B5 Ancient Race which gives you access to ancient abilities. Some items will be able to be reverse engineered, but mostly you are going to have to make a trade with the Vorlons or Shadows to get a White Star/Shadow Omega type ship.

I like the Maps:

Basic -&gt; Narn/EA -&gt; Centauri -&gt; Drahk/Hyach (soemthing high end) -&gt; Shadow(low end available to all with "Shadow Assist", high end restricted)

Basic -&gt; Narn/EA -&gt; Abbai (something midrange) -&gt; Minbari -&gt; Vorlon (ditto "Vorlon Assist")

Though EA/Narn can be split up as well to give 6 classes in each tree (but only 9 total armors).

Could also call them by armor type names:
Armor -&gt; Reenforced Armor -&gt; ? -&gt; Reenforced ? -&gt; Bio-Armor (Shadow/Crystalline)

Armor -&gt; Reenforced Armor -&gt; Poly-Crystalline -&gt; Reenforced P-C -&gt; Bio-Armor (Vorlon/Organic)

Then you have a few extras like the stealth coating and the shields (Abbai (EM), Brakiri (Gravitic), Minbari (Grav), Vorlon (EM)).

The Centauri, Vree and Drahk also have a Gravitic def shield grid - like a 'pre-shield'. EAs answer was the Energy Web.

As for starting level, might as well start them at basic and let them choose the path to what they want to research.

Good idea on the mobile spaceyard costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

All:

I know SJ and I are working on quite a few things, and Rambie is working on a revamped EA & Imp Fyron is willing to give a hand when we need it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Is anybody else working on anything?

Edit -

Also wanted to know if anyone has tried any of the new modded techs?

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

DataUpdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013702873.zip)

Here are the most recent data files.

New Techs include: External Fighter Rails I-III, External Launch Catapults I-II (Drazi), Fighter Bays I-VI, Cobra Bays I-VI (EA), External Cargo Pods I-III, Living CPU I-X (Shadows), Shipboard Telepaths I-X, Jumpgate I-V, Jump Drive (this is for roleplaying and will require the player to close the jump point after opening it and passing through - though other ships may also pass through before closing - also requires a LOT of supplies to use so ship will need at bare minimum a Huge and Medium reactor), Light/Medium/Heavy/Neutron/Spinal Lasers I-X, Slicer Beam I-X (Shadows), Medium Lightning Cannon I-X (Vorlon), Interceptors Mk I & II I-X, Standard Particle Beam I-X, Fission/Fussion/AntiMatter/Gravitic/HyperspaceTap Drives & Reactors.

I also left in SJ's original armors (posted a while back). I had been taking them out with the weapons that are not done, but accidently left them in this time. Oops!

Another note: the externally mounted components have the Armor ability so they will be hit first by most weapons. This is to represent their exposed nature and fragility.


Currently working on Weapons, Boarding/Security, Specialty Crew components, Mines/Sats/Layers, Troops/Infantry, Planetary Defense facilities & Racial Techs.

[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

Question for all:

I am just about ready to merge all the weapons into a file, but I'm having a little trouble making a decision on the tech trees.

Should I go with Idea A -
Limit the weapons to individual races - this would mean only the Narn would be able to research Energy Mines, only Drazi can research the Solar Cannon, only the Hyach can research Spinal Laser, etc.. There are weapon techs that are freely researchable by all, such as low end particle and plasma weapons, most matter weapons, Ionic weapons and a few here and there in the others (Low end lasers, etc.).

- OR -

Should I go with Idea B -
The other option is to make researching the different fields more expensive but giving everyone access to just about everything (Ancient stuff will still be restricted to their races). This way you could do broad research into everthing, but concentrating in one/two fields would yield more powerful weapons quicker. AI would be set to research the weapons that that race traditional uses - so in general the AI ships will stick to the basic B5 ideas, but a human could choose to research 'whatever' (so the Minbari might become Plasma/Missile experts rather than Molecular/EM experts).


I would like any input y'all might have ASAP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


Also, I changed the cargo and fighter bays a bit. The tech side of the mod is really picking up speed now and I am aiming to get the weapons done this weekend if I hear from everyone. Would also like to add in whatever SJ currently has working for armor and then start writing the AIs. Most of the component pics are done and are posted on SJ's homepage (look in his signature for the link).

Thanks!!!

[thorfrog]

I'm for option "A". This would force you to trade for this tech or spy for it. Plus it would keep most races unique to their own tech.

[Phoenix-D]

"This would force you to trade for this tech or spy for it. Plus it would keep most races unique to their own tech. "

You cannot trade for or spy steal racial techs. Only complete ships.

Phoenix-D

[Andrés]

I've designed the whole sci-fi crossover mod thinking in option "A". It'd be nice if you can use the same racial traits numbers to make merging later easier.

7 - Babylon tech (general available to all)
8 - Centauri Tech
9 - Earth Tech
10 - Lnaw Tech
11 - Minbari Tech
12 - Narn Tech
13 - Shadow Tech
14 - Vorlon Tech
(if you need some other racial trait you have to use 33, 34, ect.)

I was thinking that there is a limited mid point that can be interesting:
If you give a tech area a race exclusive requisit, but don't add it the racial number, only those who have the racial trait can start to research it, but others can gain it by analyzing captured ships or using intel.
In a full tech start all will have it.
It would be nice to have a few "capturable" race-exclusive tech areas, something that is not too alien to another race or sci-fi.

[Val]

I actually added a bunch of racial techs with all the races in mind. Here is what I had so far:

20 - Abbai (LNaW)
21 - Belt Alliance
22 - Brakiri (LNaW)
23 - Cascor *
24 - Centauri
25 - Dilgar
26 - Drahk
27 - Drazi (LNaW)
28 - Earth Alliance
29 - Gaim
30 - Grom
31 - Hurr
32 - Hyach
33 - Ipsha
34 - Kirishiac Lords (Ancient)
35 - Llort
36 - Lumati *
37 - Markab
38 - Minbari
39 - Moradi *
40 - Narn
41 - Orieni
42 - Pakmara (LNaW)
43 - Raiders
44 - Shadow
45 - Streib
46 - Third Space Aliens * (Ancient)
47 - Torata
48 - Torvalus (Ancient)
49 - Vorlon (Ancient)
50 - Vree (LNaW)
51 - Yolu *
52 - Descari

Right now only the ones without the * are in use for weapons or other components in the current merge file. Races with a LNaW after them will be setup as a choice for the LNaW emps, so you could play LNaW focusing on Drazi, Abbai, Brakiri, etc. until they are split into their own catagory. Ancient denotes an Ancient race.

[Andrés]

Ok I'll have to re-number all tech areas.
Why start from 20? I don't have enought room to place all others before.

BTW merging would be easier if I can merge the Excel files, so I can change family numbers, ect.

[Baron Munchausen]

Remember the 'dual tech requirement' effect. If a component requires both a 'generic' tech and a racial restricted tech, it can be captured by a race that does not have the racial ability, they just can't research that tech any further once they have it. This might be a good thing to do with the 'Ancient' techs. It would then be possible for the younger races to capture or be given technology from the 'First Ones'...

[Val]

I had just arbitrarily started at 20 figuring other mods wouldn't have more than 15. I had done the same with the components and other files, to leave space for the other mods http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That being said, don't worry about redoing all you stuff, I will just renumber mine to go from 50 - up (just add 30 to the current #'s) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

To try to make life easier - and to cut down on the number of files I'm uploading to this site, I'm going to try to use a geocities site for future updates and just post the URLs.

Everything to date can be downloaded piecemeal at:

B5Mod Page (http://www.geocities.com/b5mod/B5ModHome.html)

[Andrés]

I had posted this some time ago, but didn't get a reply. What do you think about these sizes?
Sizes & Tonnage (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1013959292.zip)

[Val]

I was thinking of sticking to the generic SE IV sizes, to avoid having to make each race a seperate ship list (though with the excel sheet a merge would be easier). The other prob is though the sizes are good indicators of weight/tonnage, it doesn't really reflect size well. EG: The Drazi Sky Serpent is bigger than a T-Bolt. Plus, there are dozens of other ships from the B5 Wars game that would need hull sizes - though maybe that would be the way to go, just make each race's hull class for their race alone!

[Andrés]

That's what I was thinking about.
I know my list is very incomplete and many sizes would need to be added.

[Val]

Ok, here is what I'm planning on doing for the weapon techs:

Each broad weapon area will have a tech (eg: Laser Weapons)

Then each race will have weapons in different 'power' classes (eg: light, medium, heavy, mega, ultra)

There will also be some specific types (eg: point-defense, rapid fire)

Finally, there will be advanced broad areas for races specializing in an area (eg: Advanced Laser Weapons)


So, for example: Combat Laser will require : Advanced Laser Weapons - Centauri (prereq Laser Weapons) & Medium Weapons - Centauri. An Interceptor Mk I will require: Particle Weapons, Point-Defence Weapons, Light Weapons - EA.


This will force a variety of techs to be researched to open up new weapons - and it will start races in their 'prefered' weapon tech areas. Also, this will allow techs to be captured and researched from that point on. Finally, this let me have many weapons with the same tech levels, yet keep them somewhat racially seperated.

I'm working on plugging in all the techs now, and setting up the families for the AI. With any luck (if I don't do too much OT this week), I should have something this weekend.

Once the weapons are done, we will then have Ships/Bases/Sats/Mines/Fighters almost complete - just needing armor and some extra components (racial specific & B5 specific stuff). I'm reworking the troops and infantry in between weapon work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif So, we are almost done!

[thorfrog]

Keep up the good work! B5 rules.

Question on jumpgates. Is this something the computer AI will use too?

[Val]

I guess the AI might be able to use it, but then how do you tell it to self destruct it after opening the gate. I made it pretty expensive to build a gate - since it seemed to be a rare event in the show. I also included a few events that can create/close random gates just like wormholes.

The images for the torp weapons are done (including the Narn E Mine) and I am about 75% done with the weapon Techs. Armor pics have also been added. With any luck, I should be posting updates this weekend for new component pics and data files http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[Suicide Junkie]

"I also included a few events that can create/close random gates just like wormholes."

How are those described? Civilian construction/industrial accident?

PS: Checking the latest data files on the B5 mod site;
In Tech area, fission research through hyperspace tap research.
Those would probably sound better as "Fission Utilization" etc. Just because its an applied tech, and we aren't researching how to research fission reactions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
A simple search-replace idea.

"Universal cure for most plagues, more advanced than any medical science known." You won't be able to see the description until you discover this ruins tech, so the description should probably read "more advanced than any other medical science known."


Scanning the components, I noted some possibly problematic components, WRT armor. Armor has 10/25/50 hitpoints at the base level, increasing only a little bit in sheer strength as tech improves.

"Name := External Launch Catapult II
Description := External storage and launching catapult designed with Drazi Super Heavy fighters in mind. Armor has been added to the mount making it less vulnerable."
Tonnage Structure := 30/35
This may be too low, if you really want them to be "external", then they should be up near 50.


Name := Molecular Slicer Beam V
Tonnage Structure := 104
Name := Spinal Laser III
Tonnage Structure := 81
These two are quite high, although if that slicer beam is the shadow slicer beam, then the advanced armors may be sufficient to give it reasonable protection. Those spinal lasers are going to be quite vulnerable, though that may be what you intended.

PPS: Working on armor right now...

[ 22 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Taking much longer than expected, but
CANADA wins GOLD! Yay!

Techareas for basic armor (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/armortechareas.txt)
Full Structural Supports components (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/structuralsupports.txt)

I'm setting it up so that armor research splits into three areas (for a 3D matrix of components http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )
Armor Physics - constructing stronger armor.
Armor Manufacturing - reducing cost of each armor plate
Armor Engineering - Allows heavier armors (light-&gt;medium-&gt;heavy, more absorb%)

[Val]

SJ:

Excellent to hear from you and congrats on your Canadian Gold (and again on narrowly beating our chick hockey team).

The descriptions for the new/dead warp points follow the B5 universe. They announce that a new signal has been detected in hyperspace and a few turns later the beacon becomes active on an ancient gate that had been deactivated. The other one has a failure in the jump gate system which causes a catastrophic collapse (say that ten times fast).

I like the "Utilization" idea, will change as I add the other techs - but hey, at least fission and fusion are spelled right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Good call on the Universal Cure as well. You did notice that all the other plagues and med bays stop at level 4 now? Even the event plague will only go to 4.

I expected some issues with the components - since I wasn't sure what the values were going to be for sure.

The external launch cat II should actually be below 50 - to help represent the fact it is armored - less likely to be hit, correct? While the Cat I should be 50 as you said. The spinal laser should be pretty vulnerable - as it runs the length of the ship, giving a huge oppotunity to be damaged. The slicer beam should probably be lowered in struc though.

Just d/l'd the armor - can't wait to look at them later tonight.

I will send you the weapons (and everyone else who is interested) this weekend to check against the armors if you like.

Finally, do I need to add the structural stuff (the empty hexes) to the image mod?

[Val]

Actaully, would it be better if I set all weapons in each class/size to the same struct ton?

[Suicide Junkie]

The hitpoints should be mostly based on
- depth in hull
- component size

With two weapon Versions, the same size, the mature-tech one should probably be the same, or very slightly weaker (harder to hit)

Prototypes can be given more hitpoints to reflect the fact that they are easier to destroy.

[Val]

Just to make sure I am following the armor struct points:

Things that are externally mounted should be around 50+

Things that are easy to knock out (do to size and complexity) should also be 50+

Most weapons should fall between 15 and 50 - with smaller and more sturdy weapons on the lower end and with easily damaged weapons on the upper scale.

By default a Proto-Type should be a little higher and an Advanced-Type should be a little lower (guessing that it doesn't transend an armor level 10/25/50).

Most internal components (sensors, crew, etc.) should be 5-15 with the safest components on the low end.

Engines should be on the higher end closer to 50, while Reactors should be more around the 10-25 range.

Is all this correct?

[Suicide Junkie]

Yep. Except for the "transend an armor level 10/25/50" idea...
The armor protection % is quite fuzzy, since we still have somewhat random hit calculation. The low hitpoints of the light armor is partially made up for by the fact that there are so very many of them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It is probably best to view the chance to be hit as a smoothish curve from 1 to 100+ hitpoints. Upgrading armor from light to heavy bumps up the absorb %, but not by an overwhelming amount.

[Val]

Want to make sure I got this, is an item with 50 adu more/less likely to be hit than an object with 25?

[Suicide Junkie]

A heavy armor with 50 hitpoints is more likely to be hit than a light armor with 10 hitpoints.
What is not known, is by how much, or what happens when you compare 1 50Hp component against 5 10Hp components.

Higher hitpoints act more like armor, but volume does as well.
Something like comparing a bullet proof vest to 25 people trying to jump in front of bullets for you.

[Val]

Maybe it works as something based on overall structure / component structure.


So a 50adu component on a 200kt ship would be hit 25% of the time and a 10adu component would be hit 5% of the time.

I also gave the exterior components the armor ability so they would be hit first no matter what (in theory).

[Suicide Junkie]

Its possible. Armor works in the opposite way, however, with lower hitpoints being targetted first, so there's precedent for Aaron using non-trivial hit choosing routines. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

i'd love to get an official explanation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: Me too.

Techareas for basic armor (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/armortechareas.txt)
Full Structural Supports components (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/structuralsupports.txt)
Light Armor components (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/lightarmor.txt)
Midrange Armor components (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/midarmor.txt)
Heavy Armor components (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/heavyarmor.txt)

I've left the images in the original component range for now, its just a simple search-replace.

The final images will be: (???, #723, #724, #725).
(The structural supports being unknown at the moment.)

PS: the tip-top inert armor (Heavy Class 6) gives a total of 75 hitpoints.

EDIT: added mid armor.
EDIT: added heavy armor.

[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[jimbob]

Okay, so I've been lurking here for quite some time, having nothing meaningful to add... but I've become somewhat confused in the meantime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

My question is, which affects the probability of a component being damaged (ignoring armour effects for a moment)? An increase in the "Tonnage Space Taken" value or an increase in the "Tonnage Structure" value? All of a sudden the term component's ADU is popping up, and I'm just a little confused.

Thanks for any explaination
jimbob

[Val]

As the components are numbered/lettered 1-6, are 6A-F considered equiv to ancient level? Or, are these armors just the basic armor and there are other varieties (Centauri/Minbari/Shadow/Vorlon)?

Also, does this mean you are not doing Primary/Secondary and then 3 levels of armor?

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Update: Heavy Armor (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/heavyarmor.txt) prices have been corrected.


Primary/Additional is only used for those types of armor that have special abilities, such as the shadow armor.

This basic, inert stuff has no abilities, and thus dosen't need to distinguish primary/additional.

The Racial armors are not included yet.


Jimbob:
The higher a component's Tonnage Structure, the more likely to be hit.

The term "ADU" stands for Arbitrary Damage Unit.
Which is a better unit for measuring hitpoints than KiloTons.

[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: suicide_junkie ]</p>

[Val]

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. I'll add all this (with the updated pic #'s) to the data files and post on Sunday sometime with some other new stuff.

Thanks for all the hard work, can't wait to try it out later tonight!!

[Val]

Soul Hunters (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004735)

Just in case you weren't paying attention, Oleg just posted an almost complete Soul Hunter shipset.

Check it out and let him know what you think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'll add it to our ever growing mod once it is done.

I spent some time today making all the Techs, now descriptions for the weapons.

[Suicide Junkie]

To the Vehicle size designer:
You've got a lot of hull sizes that look to be straight from the NeoShipset standard, yet the images are limited to original SE4 ones.
Now that I've got the NeoShipsetBuilder (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1014173965.exe) out, those can be changed.

I've typed up the default NeoBuilder Alternates list (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/defaultalternates.txt) in an importable form. You can make any changes you feel would be appropriate for B5.

[Val]

Thanks SJ, I'll bring that in line with everything else http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Also, in talking to Oleg about the Soul Hunters (aka Shag'Toth) I had mentioned that I was interested in creating some race specific facilities for all the races - as I have already given each major (and many minor) race a race # in the TechAreas. Right now this is only impacting weapons that each race can initially research, it may also be used for the armors/shields that races can research. There are some specific components for some race's ships (eg: Living CPU for Shadows), but I would like to have more available to each race. So I am looking for some good suggestions. I would really like to do something with the Minbari Castes and Centauri Houses for example.

Finally, a question for SJ:
I have tried to restrict it so you can only choose one race in the advanced traits, but it doesn't seem to be working correctly. Is there a limit to the number of restricted items or something else I am missing?

Sample:

Name := Abbai Race
Description := Gains access to the Abbai Racial Technology Tree.
Pic Num := 0
General Type := Advantage
Cost := 0
Trait Type := Tech Area
Value 1 := 50
Value 2 := 0
Required Trait 1 := None
Required Trait 2 := None
Required Trait 3 := None
Restricted Trait 1 := Belt Alliance Race
Restricted Trait 2 := Brakiri Race
Restricted Trait 3 := Cascor Race
Restricted Trait 4 := Centauri Race
Restricted Trait 5 := Dilgar Race
Restricted Trait 6 := Drahk Race
Restricted Trait 7 := Drazi Race
Restricted Trait 8 := Earth Alliance Race
Restricted Trait 9 := Gaim Race
Restricted Trait 10 := Grom Race
Restricted Trait 11 := Hurr Race
Restricted Trait 12 := Hyach Race
Restricted Trait 13 := Ipsha Race
Restricted Trait 14 := Kirishiac Lords Race
Restricted Trait 15 := Llort Race
Restricted Trait 16 := Lumati Race
Restricted Trait 17 := Markab Race
Restricted Trait 18 := Minbari Race
Restricted Trait 19 := Moradi Race
Restricted Trait 20 := Narn Race
Restricted Trait 21 := Orieni Race
Restricted Trait 22 := Pakmara Race
Restricted Trait 23 := Raiders Race
Restricted Trait 24 := Shadow Race
Restricted Trait 25 := Streib Race
Restricted Trait 26 := Third Space Aliens Race
Restricted Trait 27 := Torata Race
Restricted Trait 28 := Torvalus Race
Restricted Trait 29 := Vorlon Race
Restricted Trait 30 := Vree Race
Restricted Trait 31 := Yolu Race
Restricted Trait 32 := Descari Race
Restricted Trait 33 := ShagToth Race

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Restricted traits just don't work yet. You have to rely on the honour system and/or game host moderation.

[oleg]

The only unique Shag'Toth weapon I am aware of is the "Inferno shield" It allows to burn through enemy ship hull. Might be modded as some kind of uber-powerfull boarding weapon.

[Val]

SJ:
Darn, was hoping that solved the issue of choosing too many races! Ah well. Could I increase the cost and have the trait adjust the stats to what we think should be base? Then I could just make it equal that cost.

Oleg:
I'll see if anything else is posted anywhere, and I'll work on the Inferno Shield.

[Val]

Found something y'all might enjoy:

B5 Mod Listing (http://www.sprungtor.de/fanware_liste.php?seite=4)

Hallo zu unseren Österreicher und Deutschen freunden und zu besuchern http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[thorfrog]

Wow this is getting big.

[Val]

I'm going to get a different homepage, not enough data transfer on this one!

[Suicide Junkie]

Dropping the background image would help, too; its quite large.

I wouldn't mind hosting a mirror, either.

[Fyron]

Val:
Might I suggest that you go with Spaceports.com? They are the best free web host that I have ever seen. Lots of nifty features, and the bandwidth limits are 500 MB/day or 5 GB/month.

[Val]

IF:

Could you send me info on SpacePorts?

SJ:

A mirror would be nice, gives people more options on where to go http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yeah, working on a different background, I want to do a wiremesh schematic of the station - something that looks like a blueprint. Anyone got anything?

Also, will post the new data files and the Shag'Toth on the site later today if I get a chance - today is shaping up to be pretty busy!

Finally:

I have the updated all the weapons, worked up their families/Groups, added correct picture numbers (there are still about 29 blanks for weapons I am working on), added some sounds, added all technologies required and fixed some typos. Also, you may notice some of the tech area req have a *, 910 or multiple racial names, those are just reminders for me that that particular weapon is unique to more than one race or that only the specified race can achieve the advanced Version of the weapon (910). I still need to make the costs, add a column for 3rd Tech required (where needed), fix the special abilities and get the rest of the sound bytes (anyone have any more weapon sounds in their personal collections?).

I also genned it out so you can see the full sample list of weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Weapons.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1014822484.zip)

I'm going to use the formula IF and SJ talked about earlier to figure costs out.

Any/all suggestions sought and welcomed!!!!

Hope you enjoy the preview.

[thorfrog]

I think the Soul Hunters would be better off as a Nuetral race. They really didn't have that major of a roll in the B5 Universe.

Question on Energy Mines. Aren't they more of a PDF type weapon then ship-to-ship? Their description is a torpedo with a high vield warhead to distroy incoming fighters. Not useable at close range.

[Val]

I had seen the Soul Hunters as Neutral as well, but I would hate to waste a complete shipset http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If Oleg wants, gear the AI towards Neutral and we can put it there.

The Energy Mines are usuable against pretty much any ship - in particular I remember the Narn G'Quans firing them at 2 incoming Shadow Cruisers. I would prefer for them to be an area of effect weapon (like in the show), but as of yet that is not an option. Also, as of yet I don't know any way to make a limit on an inside range (can't fire within # hexes). For PDF the Narn have some particle weapons and the super deadly to fighters Pulsar Mine (which might be what you're talking about - though it is short range). If you like I could make a PDF Version of the EMine for the Narn as well.

[Suicide Junkie]

SE4 does work if you give a weapon
"damage at range := 0 0 0 0 0 500 250 125 75 38 19 10 5 2 1 0 0 0 0 0"

You won't be able to fire until you get 6 squares away.

[Val]

Very cool SJ - I can definately use that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I had figured it would stop at the 0s...

[Val]

B5 Page (http://www.geocities.com/b5mod/B5ModHome.html)

Includes all SJ armor/struct work.

v1.49.20 Data files posted. Will post 1.49.20 Components/Pics/Sounds and update later or tomorrow.

Last 3 Additions/Changes:

1.46.20 - Added pics to Components for Gravitic, ElectroMagnetic, Torpedo and Anti-Matter Weapons. Renamed Engine Research techs to Utilization Techs. Added SJs Armor/Structural Support Techs and Components. Renumbered Races for compatability with Sci-Fi Crossover Mod. Added Weapon Techs for all Races (with room for future expansion of weapons in all races listed). Added Vorlon/Shadow Assisted Techs. Changed existing families and added all the new weapon families. Added some sounds.

1.49.19 - Changed Supply Bay to Supply Depot (increased size) and made base only.

1.49.18 - Upped Fighter Tech - 6. Added other racial techs (All). Added Cobra Bays (EA), External Fighter Rails, Launch Catapults (Drazi), Troop Bays (armored cargo bay, holds less) & External Cargo Bays. Also, changed Fighter Bays (I - VI) and Cargo (I-III).

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1.49.19 - Changed Supply Bay to Supply Depot (increased size) and made base only. <hr></blockquote>Ummm, may I ask what the point of that is? "Bases" have infinite supplies already, so adding a few thousand more dosen't make a difference.

Unless, of course, you are planning to make Bases out of "Ships" with zero max engines...

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[Val]

I had intended to do something along those lines - to make a sort of "refueling" base or ship - I had actually forgotten about finishing that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

When you convert bases into zero-movement ships, be sure to eliminate emergency propulsion components.

... At least emergency propulsion components that don't have any standard movement...

How about the ability to overload your engines, by making the larger sizes give 1 emergency movement point?
You blow up your engine, but get an extra bit of speed out of it before it dies.

[Val]

Both good ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif What would happen if you did that to a ship with 2 Large Engines though?

[QuarianRex]

I just finished reading through this entire thread (what an undertaking that was) and have been following the progression of the mod. I noticed that your original idea was to make every component regenerating and up the damage scale by a factor of 10 (10!), but gave up due to a bug that negates regeneration in every component when a single component type gets wiped out. I believe the example used was when a ship equiped with, say, organic armor I and organic armor II receives enough damage to completely take out OA I (but still having OA II remaining) this would negate the regenerative capabilities of OA II.

Do I have that right?

Well, I was fiddling around with the Gold demo and it seems that this bug has been fixed. I ran through several combats with mixed armor (OA I and OA II) ships to see if regeneration would continue and indeed it did. Even when reduced to a single OA I or OA II component regeneration continued normally.

Now that that is said, please do not go back to the previous design! While I can see that you were trying to capture the desperate feel of a drawn out space battle, this is not the way to do it. If all a ships components are set to regenerate this completly negates the concept of after battle combat damage. Either a ship must be completely destroyed during combat or it is fully healed upon combat completion. The inability to cripple a ship would take so much away from the game that it makes me shudder to think about it.

No more suicide missions to cripple the engines of the advancing Uberfleet, allowing your struggling empire the time to crank out a Last ditch resistance force as the said Uberfleet repairs itself. No more hard fought running battles to return a crippled cruiser to a repair base so that its heroic (and experienced) crew might fight on another day.

These kinds of situations are just as much a part of B5 (perhaps a greater part) than the actual battles themselves (which are handled quite nicely already). Not to mention that it would completely nullify any chance of a sci-fi cross-over (and that would be a terrible shame, the Centauri have as much right to be assimilated by the Borg or crushed by the Empire as anyone else).

Please do not think that I am trying to slam anyones ideas (they are good in theory) but I do enjoy B5 and would like to be able to use it in conjunction with other mods, and the standard game as well, without sacrificing other aspects of the game for the sake of prolonged combat (and since I myself wouldn't have the time or pateince to retrofit all the work that you guys would have done).

I do agree that the use of repair crews and such could make things more interesting. how about a 60kt component that repairs 1,2, or 3 components at levels I, II, and III. Granted, this does seem a bit heavy but makes it comparable, though a little less efficient (as it should be, less centralised facilities and all) than the standard repair bays (and so not making a key piece of game tech obsolete - 1 repair bay = 150kt-repairs 8 components/turn, 3 repair crews = 180kt-repairs 9 companents/turn). This would allow most capital ships limited self-repair capability yet not removing the utility of a dedicated repair ship in your fleet. As you can see, I like things to be balanced overall.

I hope that this can be of some use.

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: QuarianRex ]</p>

[Fyron]

Regenerating components do not heal after a battle is over. Any that were still destroyed on the Last turn of the combat will be destroyed after the battle is over.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now that that is said, please do not go back to the previous design! While I can see that you were trying to capture the desperate feel of a drawn out space battle, this is not the way to do it. If all a ships components are set to regenerate this completly negates the concept of after battle combat damage. Either a ship must be completely destroyed during combat or it is fully healed upon combat completion. The inability to cripple a ship would take so much away from the game that it makes me shudder to think about it. <hr></blockquote>Organic armor should not be completely regenerated after combat, unless the code has changes much more...
What we expected to happen was:
- During combat, repair teams can fix one light gun every 3-5 combat turns, say.
- Anything still damaged at the end of combat remains destroyed
- Between turns, those repair dudes could fix 2 or 3 of any component.

&lt;BETA TESTER MODE ON: Version=1.60&gt;
...
...
I now have a ship with 2/11 Organic armor III's remaining.
It did regenerate the armor during combat.
It did NOT regenerate between attacks from two separate ships.
It did NOT regenerate after two turns of waiting.
...
Mixed OA II & III repaired completely after the loss of all OA II.
The order of repairs is very odd. (Not nessesarily left to right)
...
Organic Armor gets to try repairs at the end of turn 30!
...
Regen is independent of component family, so any OA can heal any other OA component.
&lt;BETA TESTER MODE OFF&gt;

That second-Last item might be what confused you: the unmodded OA is so freaking powerful, that most of the time it regenerates fully in one combat turn. If you waited until turn 29 to bLast the armor down to one surviving component, it would all regenerate on the stored up OA points.

Looks like we can implement combat repair teams in the gold Version only.

[oleg]

I don't think Soul Hunters should be a neutral race.
Can you imagine them to stay put in their home system and not venturing all around Universe in hope to salvage allien souls ?

In fact, they should be modded as a nomad/pirate race. Is it possible to incorporate Pirates mod into Bab5 mod ?

[Suicide Junkie]

Pirates And/Or nomads should not be very hard to add to the mod. The only difficulty comes in the large number of races/racial techs. It will be somewhat tedious, but entirely possible.

[thorfrog]

I like what you are doing with the soul hunter race. But in Babylon5 they really just lay in the background. Not a bad idea as a nomad race though. That would be a good way of handling the Drahk. They are really more of an event. They are kind of like the techno-mages. Not really envolved. Now that's not a bad idea. How about a techno-mage race. Their specials will be cyber related.

[Val]

SJ and I had already talked about making the Drahk a pirate/nomad race and limiting the ships they build in the AI. Soul Hunters as Nomads would work pretty well, would be great if we could get them to keep their homeworld and build a "Well of Souls" facility http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Technomagi can almost be built along the line of the Space Monsters mod - having them wander about the universe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit - Also posted the new components and sounds on the webpage.

QR:

As SJ had said, the actual intent of increasing the values and adding the OA ability to repairable items was to give it even MORE of a desperate B5 feel, with cripled ships limping away from fights while the crews work on repairing what they can. Not all items would be OA repairable - larger more complex devices would need to be repaired at a base station still. Not sure if we are still doing this though.

SJ (and anyone else interested):

As above - are we going to go for the OA ability in the Gold Version?

[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

B5 - and others - E*Cards (http://www.b5lr.com/promotion/postcards/index.html)

Thought y'all might enjoy a bit of humor in this otherwise serious forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Some of the quotes are pretty good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

I blew away your transfer limit on the B5 site, but I managed to get all of the data, and some of the other stuff.

Paste this fancy link code in anywhere on your page:

PS: Regarding the images; aren't a lot of those in the imagemod already? You could just link to the imagemod, and save yourself a lot of bandwidth. Saving bandwidth for modders was one of the primary reasons for creating the imagemod in the first place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT: Codeblock was mangling the format of the entire thread

[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[Val]

I'll post the code later today, thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif !

I actually planned on editting in a line under the Components/Planets portion of the mod saying that they could link to the Full Image Mod at your site, which would include all of the B5 images and MORE!! Just haven't had the chance yet. On the other side, the reason I did post them is so someone could just get the 'bare bones' if that is what they wanted - though it does have your latest Components.bmp to tease them on the new components they don't have... yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

Ok, added your code in my own sloppy old way... I made the mistake of using a table when I used their 'quick and easy creator' and can't figure ut how to fix where I want things in HTML.

Also, updated the Race file to v1.49.20 (added in the ShogToth -Soulhunters- fixed the SoulHunter Escort bmp size from 131x131 to 128x128 and the Vorlon Colonyship from 135x135 to 128x128) and reposted the Components v1.49.20 with the better Minbari style components.

[Suicide Junkie]

Hey, why not make the B5 page your homepage in your shrapnel profile. I'm always hunting for a link or bookmark...

Try just throwing a &lt;font color = "#FFFFFF"&gt; around my link table, so all the text shows up, and it should be fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Could you send me a PM when you change files? I can then update my mirror as appropriate.

[Val]

Will do on all accounts!

Heading to NYC for the weekend, so don't expect too much from me 'til Sunday - not that I expect any of you are on the edge of your seats waiting for me to post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

New B5 Mod Page (WIP) (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/)

Ok, started to create another webpage at Space Ports. Thanks to IF's suggestion.

Right now it is bare bones - but at least you can download the files.

[Fyron]

Val:
Have you seen Spaceports March newsletter that I posted in the Official Image Collection (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=004545) thread? I don't think that your site will ever actually reach the new bandwidth limits (mine only had 78 MB total in February). Spaceports is a good web host, but I don't know what's going to happen with them. They've been losing money big time in the past several months. I hope these new changes will help them to surive.

With that being said, do you want any help making your web page? I noticed that you put the ad banner in the top frame. This is un-neccessary. The ad banner automatically creates its own frame at the bottom of the page, so you no longer need to add code to display it on your page. The FAQ is a bit out-dated on this issue.

Oh yeah, and the reimbursements program was discontinued sometime Last year before I signed up on spaceports, so don't bother thinking you might get ad free hosting after a while from ad banner clicks. It won't happen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ 04 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[QuarianRex]

On the OA thing:

I wound up reading up on the OA ability, after I made that post, and it seems that regeneration works a little different than I had originally thought. It seems that each regen component adds to a regen 'pool' that is later used to repair OA components after they've been destroyed. Also, the OA components stop adding to the pool when they first get destroyed.

This explains OA's somewhat eratic performance in combat, as it initially seems capable of coming back from nearly anything (a ship with 5 OA III that spends 5 turns closing with the enemy would build up a regen pool of 30x5x5 turns=750, enough to repair all 5 OA's after initial destruction), yet seems to be ineffective later in combat [the pool has been used up/no (or few) components being capable ofadding to it] or during close engagements like at a warp point (no time to build up a regen pool). I tried it out and this explaination seems pretty accurate. And the chance to repair components at the end of combat may just be the final redistribution of the regen pool for turn 30.

This revelation came to me courtesy of one of the contributors (Zircher perhaps?) to the Dubious strategy guide, a rather helpful, though massive (400+ pages), tome.

Also, my principle objection arose because it sounded like OA was going to be added to every component, thereby ruining the more interesting aspects of Vorlon or Shadow Tech (regeneration isn't so fearsome if everyone has it). That and scaling everything up by a factor of ten (ouch).

[Suicide Junkie]

IIRC, in the latest patch (maybe only Gold), the OA will resume contributions to the pool after they have been regenerated.

[QuarianRex]

Interesting...

[Val]

IF:

No, I hadn't read it yet - going there now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thank you for the offer of help, and it is gladly accepted! As I said, I had just started it and am working on making it look a bit better.

SJ/QR:

So, are we going to use the OA on just the ancients, or all the ships? If all - should the cutoff be at light or medium weapons for younger races?

[Suicide Junkie]

Light weapons for younger races, medium for older races.
IMO, the big big guns should never be fixable in space. (add emergency supply ability of 0/1)

EDIT:
Wait!! How will this affect the armor?
We have to multiply by 10 again, but all the components will be between 100 - 500 hitpoints, and not necessarily related to how hard they are to fix.
However, given that the bigger and closer to the surface a component is, the more hitpoints/easier to hit/harder to repair, the general cases should work out.
If anybody has a component that should be hard to destroy, but also moderate-hard to combat repair, it should probably not be given the combat repair ability at all.

[ 05 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[Val]

Now the real question to everyone:

Since the OA does not work in SE IV 1.49 do we keep on course 'as is' or do we just start aiming toward gold? Also, the x10 factor will make this mod even MORE incompatable with the sci-fi x-over.

[Suicide Junkie]

We can just go on as is for now.

Once we want to go Gold, it won't be too hard to 10x the stuff.

Also, the crossover dosen't have to have the exact same B5 stuff. This should be a relatively minor effect in combat, though a very cool one, and it wouldn't upset the game balance.

[Val]

Ok, business as usual - the weapons should be easy to identify as all Light weapons have Light in research field now.

When we do go Gold, shouldn't the Vorlon and Shadow ships be able to regen anything - since their ships are biomechanic/living organisms?

[Val]

Ok, business as usual - the weapons should be easy to identify as all Light weapons have Light in research field now.

When we do go Gold, shouldn't the Vorlon and Shadow ships be able to regen anything - since their ships are biomechanic/living organisms?

[Val]

Ok, business as usual - the weapons should be easy to identify as all Light weapons have Light in research field now.

When we do go Gold, shouldn't the Vorlon and Shadow ships be able to regen anything - since their ships are biomechanic/living organisms?

[Suicide Junkie]

Vorlon/Shadows could regenerate almost anything outside of combat.
The in-combat repairs should be restricted to simple structures, similar to the young races, except that their regeneration is faster, and harder to disable, and the ability extends into their armor.

[Val]

Okeydoke.

Also, fixed the Spaceports page - stupid mistake, had it referring to my C: drive for files (insert sound of hand smacking head).

At least I have the mirror looking good (under downloads).

Spaceports B5 Webpage (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/)

[QuarianRex]

I'm just wondering if you actually have to scale everything up by a factor of ten. If only 1 pt of OA is going to be added to any given component (with the exception of repair crews) the actual OA rating probably wouldn't go over 20 (and rarely even approach it).

Most of a ships space is taken up by armor/shield generators and the biggest guns that you can cram onboard. These components, as I understand it, won't be give OA (except for Vorlon/Shadow armor). So the regen ability should be fairly self-limiting. Even with 20 small components (somewhat excessive) of 10 structure each it would take 10 turns to repair them all (longer actually, since destroyed components would not be contributing to repair until they themselves were restored). The addition of repair teams capable of adding an extra 5/10/15/whatever points to the pool (perhaps adjusted to the size of the ship, etc.) would allow a slow but steady rate of repair to key systems.

Granted, this somewhat lessens the impact of repair crews on ships (a given component may be capable of repairing another once or even twice in a combat, depending on size) but still gives them a vital role as they allow that comparatively fat weapon system to come back Online in time for a few more shots.

And all this accomplished without multiplying everything by ten.

[Val]

I'll defer to SJ on this one - he has researched it to the point of OA Master.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now that that is said, please do not go back to the previous design! While I can see that you were trying to capture the desperate feel of a drawn out space battle, this is not the way to do it. If all a ships components are set to regenerate this completly negates the concept of after battle combat damage.... <hr></blockquote>This is why we were going to multiply by 10 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

There are 3 combat sensor packages, 3 ECM packages, 1 multiplex, 10 lifesupport/crewquaters, bridge, aux.con.
Already we've reached 19 combat-repairable components.

Repairing one component per combat turn is way too fast, especially since repair teams haven't been added to the picture yet (and don't forget the storage of points before taking damage).

We were planning on one minor component per 3 combat turns, with basic damage control teams in place.

You would have to order the components in your design by priority (since the first components added to a design tend to be the first ones to be OA healed).
If your ship was to be soundly thwacked, it should take many combat turns to restore one lifesupport, seal the air leaks in one crew quarters, and put out fires in your auxiliary control center. Alternatively, you could scrape together parts for your PDCs and a small laser if your race likes to die in a blaze of glory.

[Fyron]

Val:
No problem. What would you like help with?

Edit:
I know, I can make a Cascading Style Sheet for you. It is a text file that contains formatting information (mostly font-related stuff) that can be called on with class="x" tags in &lt;p&gt;, &lt;div&gt;, &lt;a&gt;, etc. tags. Saves some typing (or copying) of &lt;font&gt; tags over and over again.

[ 06 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Val]

Could use some help with the look and the overall design. Would the cascading style work with the frames easily?

SJ:

When we do go to the x10, should repair crews get a higher level of OA to help represent increased repair ability, or just allow them ship repair for between fights?

[Suicide Junkie]

Until we use Gold, all the OA ability is useless for combat repairs.

Only once we go x10 in Gold, should we add the OA ability. For now the repair crews can only realistically repair between strategic turns.

1.49: OA useless for combat repair:
Gold: OA too powerful
Gold x10: Now, we can add OA to Repair Crews/Damage Control Teams.

Q: Should we separate "Repair Crew" from "Damage Control Team"?
IE: one repairs during combat only, the other repairs more effectively outside of combat.

[Val]

Seperating the DCT & RC sounds good.

[Fyron]

Val:
Yes, Cascading Style Sheets work well with frames. For an extreme example, my site has 19 frames and it uses CSS with no problems. To call for the CSS, you have to add a line of code between the &lt;head&gt; and &lt;/head&gt; tags of each html file, which will look something like this:
&lt;link rel=stylesheet href="yourstylesheet.css" type="text/css"&gt;

Could you email me all 8 or so of the html files that the site is currently using? It's a pain to try and sort out which goes where by using "view source" or "save as" in IE. My email address is in my profile.

I noticed that you had all of your html files saved as ".htm" instead of ".html". It doesn't really matter, but ".html" is technically the standard file extension. If you don't want to change it, then no problem.

Do you have any ideas on how you want the site to look?

[Val]

E*Mailing files now - you can reply to that address, but it would be better to reply to b5mod@yahoo.com as the one I sent it from is my work address.

I'm actually playing around in PSP7 trying to make a B5 style console for the game and would probably like to use that. I'm also planning on adding a page that will have all the races in DLable format with seperate columns at the end for SE IV 1.49/ SE IV 1.49-B5Mod/ SE IVG/ SE IVG-B5Mod AI/empire files. Would like the overall feel to be as if you were using BabCom/B5 computer system.

[Fyron]

You can use relative hyperlinks, such as "header.htm", instead of things like "http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/header.htm". It makes it much easier to work on the pages on your computer than if they keep trying to load up stuff from the internet. Also, this makes it really easy if you ever happen to move your page to a different host (I've moved my site at least 4 times). At least for my purposes, I am going to change them.

Edit:
Are the sizes of all the frames set to how you want them to be, or are they subject to change soon?

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[jimbob]

[uncloak]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1.49: OA useless for combat repair:
Gold: OA too powerful
Gold x10: Now, we can add OA to Repair Crews/Damage Control Teams.<hr></blockquote>

Is there still the goal of integrating the B5 and Sci-Fi Mods? If so, how will x10 affect this endevour? With even more hopeful anticipation, I ask how will this affect a possible B5/Sci-Fi/p&N combined mod?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Q: Should we separate "Repair Crew" from "Damage Control Team"?
IE: one repairs during combat only, the other repairs more effectively outside of combat.<hr></blockquote>

Yes!

-jimbob

[/decloak]

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]</p>

[Fyron]

Val:
Am I correct in assuming that you want the base font for the web site to be "Comic Sans MS"? You've used it in a lot of places already.

Edit:
I sent you an email with the CSS and such.

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Phoenix-D]

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Should we separate "Repair Crew" from "Damage Control Team"?
IE: one repairs during combat only, the other repairs more effectively outside of combat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes!

-jimbob"

I agree.

"The difficult we do immediately; the impossible requires a shipyard." (or repair yard in this case)

Phoenix-D

[Val]

Yeah, splitting the two seems like the best idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The x10 shouldn't effect the Sci-Fi crossover as we are going to finish out the 1.49 Version which should be fully compatable, then move it into Gold with the OA and x10 (SJ - please correct me if I am wrong).

Also, wanted to try to collect Gold AI for any of the existing B5 races - anybody working on converting any of these?


IF:

I would actually like to use a more B5 looking text, but the PC I was on didn't have anything I liked, maybe I'll dl something.

Yeah, change the links to whatever you think is more efficient, I defer to your superior knowledge in this area http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Val:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I would actually like to use a more B5 looking text, but the PC I was on didn't have anything I liked, maybe I'll dl something.<hr></blockquote>
I downloaded a bunch of B5 fonts a long time ago. I'll email them to you.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yeah, change the links to whatever you think is more efficient, I defer to your superior knowledge in this area http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr></blockquote>
About this "superior" knowledge, its more experience than anything else. I've been blundering my way through html for the past few years, and I have finally reached the point where I know what I am doing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You should have seen the mess that my first web page was. I made the mistake of making it in MS Word. That was a bad experience. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif What I really need to do now is to blunder my way through PHP. That will be a cool lanquage to learn.

And on another note, would you like some good B5 hyperlinks? I've got a number of them.

[ 07 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Val]

Thanks for the Fonts - I'll grab them later today http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

More good B5 links would be welcome, also - if you want to put in a banner to your page instead of just text that would be great!

Anyone else want a banner linking their page (rather than the boring text)?

[Fyron]

Hmm, I need to get around to making a banner for my site.

Actually, all of the B5 fonts that I have except for one are alien Languages, which would be most useless for your web page. So instead, I emailed you a few web site links for font downloading pages.

Here are a whole bunch of B5, Star Trek and Star Wars urls:

B5:
http://www.visi.com/~wildfoto/spoilers.html
http://www.b5tech.net/
http://www.tp2b.de/index_b5.html
http://www.oinc.net/B5/Enc/
http://babylon5.warnerbros.com/cmp/
http://www.b5mg.com/%7Eepsilon/
http://www.ultradrive.com/b5_3d_index.htm#brakiri_cru_ng
http://operationphoenix.freeservers.com/

Star Trek:
http://3sygma.com/fiveminute/index2.html
http://www.mediatrek.com/
http://www.decipher.com/startrek/
http://www.stinsv.com/index2.htm
http://www.interplay.com/klingon/
http://www.emusic.com/promo/startrek/trektoday/index.html?fref=122809
http://vv8.jetc.org/
http://www.treknation.com/
http://www.trektoday.com/

Star Wars:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/
http://www1.theforce.net/CUSWE/default.asp

All:
http://www.desktopstarships.com/
http://members.aol.com/mikehlee/home.htm

[Val]

Guess what??!?

I have some weapons FINALLY done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Weapons.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015616376.zip)

Included are the AntiMatter and Ballistic weapons (mostly Vree and Drazi/Earth Alliance techs unless captured). Also included are two new component pics (not yet submitted to SJs mod) and an excel sheet with rough estimates on all the rest of the weapons.

(Edit: I think I'll try to hit Particle and Laser weapons next as they cover almost all the races. Was working on ElectroMagnetic and Gravitic (Vorlon/Streib/Minbari and Brakiri/Kirishiac mostly). )


Having some minor troubles - such as the game not automatically giving a new race the proper colony module - any ideas what might be causing it?

[ 08 March 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Fyron]

Have you added any new colony components? That tends to cause problems.

[Val]

I think I might have made the jumpgate a colony comp - so that I could require the jump gate ship to be used for either the gate - or as a really really really big colony ship that goes super super slow. But it did work at first, it only appears to have stopped once I added the weapons...

[Fyron]

Is the Jumpgate listed after the normal colony modules? That will cause startup problems. If you put the Jumpgate before the colony modules, then everything will work normally (except the AI wont ever use the Jumpgate to make a colony, which is probably for the best).

Edit:
On the history page of your web site, the highest Version is listed as "1.46.20" instead of "1.49.20".

[ 09 March 2002: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]</p>

[Val]

All:

Ok, newest additions - added Laser and Ion weapons (though I only had 4 ion weapons). Also includes the earlier update with the Ballistic and AntiMatter weapons. Fixed some spelling errors and typos. More component pics added - including a few updates of older pics that were a little unclear.

Update2.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015718572.zip)


SJ:

There seems to be a problem with the Structural Support Components, they all appear right off the bat. Also, at the highest level they are 0 space and I can put dozens on the ship - is that the way it should be?


IF:

I fixed the jumpgate thing by changing it from a colony module and requirement to a cargo component and requirement - though it actually doesn't take any cargo space.

I'll fix the web stuff Monday.

[Val]

Okay, here are the newest sounds as well (figured you might need them to get the full effect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ):

B5ModSounds.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015722370.zip)

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>There seems to be a problem with the Structural Support Components, they all appear right off the bat. Also, at the highest level they are 0 space and I can put dozens on the ship - is that the way it should be?<hr></blockquote>
Structural supports should only be available once you've achieved Armor Manufacturing level 1.

Armor Physics and Armor Manufacturing should both give various stat improvements.

The Structural Supports are intended to be zero size. You can put a thousand on your ship, and get 3K "extra" hitpoints, but the ship will be very expensive, and the supports are not very good armor (3hp).
It might be useful as a decoy, if you leave it in mothballs to save money.

[Val]

Everyone:

A few more components added (does not include anything earlier - just a few new comp pics) -

NewB5Comps.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015773961.zip)


SJ:

Didn't notice the cost associated to it - my bad! Though it does seem to give you access to all (A-F) base level structural supports at basic level of play... Have you tried the new weapons against your armor yet?

[Suicide Junkie]

All of the "Number of Tech Requirements := 1" should be ":= 3".

The files I originally wrote all have 3, but the one I linked to dosent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Either do a search-replace, or replace the whole block of code with this new code (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/structuralsupports.txt).


Fyron:
For the download mirrors table, you need the status cell to beOffline.gif (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/offline.gif) needs to be local, so that when the site is down, it will show through the broken "status" image, and the cell will read "offline".
The column may have to be shrunk down to its natural size in order to avoid tiling the offline image.

[Val]

Everyone:

Replaced some other pics that didn't look right (same pictures, better angles) and added fighter power cells.


TouchUps.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015783648.zip)

[Val]

Added SJs update to the Components.txt file:

DataComponentUpdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015786152.zip)


Fixed the components pic to be up to date:

PicCompUpdate.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015786915.zip)

[Talenn]

Without having to read through all 28 pages of this thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ....Are there any 'Gold legal' AIs out there for the standard (TDM style) tech set for the B5 races? I'd like to add them to my standard game for AI use if possible.

I know at one time there were standard AIs for the EA and the Narn but they are no longer 'packaged' with the race set.

Thanx,
Talenn

[Val]

Everyone:

Ok, all the 1.49.21 updates are now posted on the site. I have requested more space so I can post a 1.49.20 to 1.49.21 update as well.

B5 Web Page (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/)

Talenn:

You can find the old standard AIs for all the race sets up on the website above under downloads - AIs.

These are all the old 1.49 compatable AIs. Working on collecting them all for Gold now as well. - Though I know Mephisto has made EA & Narn for TDM.

We are currently working on new AIs that will use the techs in the mod for both 1.49 & Gold, but they won't do you much good in an other mod.

[ 11 March 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Mephisto]

I have posted the Narn and the Earth Alliance in the download section. Enjoy!

[Val]

(As posted by Mephisto)

Narn & EA shipsets.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1015876144.zip)

Here are the Earth Alliance and the Narn as Talenn requested them. These files are complete and working but will not be strongly supported until the next TDM-ModPack will be published. You need the TDM-ModPack to be installed to have the races work out-of-the-box.

[ 11 March 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Val]

Did a little bit of work on the web page - thanks again IF for the nudge and the help http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Working on adding a page with all the races and info on them - right now it is just a list with a few (VERY few) notes.

Added actual NEWS to the news page - such as current WIP and an .emp file you can use with the mod to test the current techs (must start game with players having High Tech), even threw in some rough ship designs for fun. You can then go to the simulator and play out some fights if you want to try it out.

Let me know what y'all thnk about it and what else you want on the pages that would make it more useful to you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

B5 Mod Homepage (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/)

[Suicide Junkie]

I've added all the v21's to my mirror.

[Cylapse]

Heh, the topic reached 420...

[Talenn]

VERY cool guys. Thanx for the prompt pointers and repostings. Its good to see that the SE4 community is still just as active and helpful as when I left a while back.

Question: What do you mean when you say the 1.49.21 AI? Is that for old SE4 or is that your new nomenclature for SE:4 Gold?

Any ETA on 'Gold' AIs for the balance of the races (or at least the 'major' races?). I'm no longer proficient with modding, but I can probably do a quick 'thievery job' from some of the standard game AIs if needbe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanx again,
Talenn

[Val]

Actually, right now the 1.49.21 AI is still SE IV patch 1.49 compatable, it won't actually use any of the special techs in our mod. Once AIs are made for the mod we'll add an M to the ending (1.49.22M) for modded AI. There is already a seperate column for Gold, so once we have the 6 major Gold AIs collected (have 2 right now) I will post up there.

If anyone knows the additional lines that were added off the top of their heads could you please post them and I will add them to the other AIs until someone decides to rework them further so they can at least be used in Gold. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


SJ:
Thanks!

Cynapse:
Maybe by 840 we'll have it done http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ 12 March 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

The file Versions are 1.49.21, which is non-gold SE4.
I would expect the B5 gold Versions to start at 1.60.1 or so.

Rather than an 'M', an 'A' would probably be better to indicate AI changes.

[Val]

Gotcha!

[Val]

Ok, more good news:

Added updates to the web page to make updating easier.

Version 1.49.20 to 1.49.21 Update20to21.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1016039258.zip)

Version 1.49.21 to 1.49.22 Update21to22Beta.zip (ftp://b5mod:rzNgdHBZ@galileo.spaceports.com/public_html/b5mod/zips/updates/b5modupdate21-22beta.zip)

Also, Master Belisarius has kindly updated all the AI (other than the Narn & EA done by Mephisto) to work with Gold. These can also be downloaded at the site!!!!

Finally, you may have noticed the newest update has a BETA ending - I have added another couple hundred weapons (our total is over a thousand now, though that includes usually 10 levels of each weapon class) and some new fighter components. With all luck I will try to get the weapons completed by the end of next week. Then onto the aux components!!!

[Suicide Junkie]

Two things:

1) AIs vs components.
Which components will it be hard for the AI to choose during ship design?
What 'useless' abilities do we have available to help give the AIs a clue?

2) Tech Areas.
I think we are a bit short on general research areas.
The pure research kind of area, one that can be applied to many fields.
IMO, we need more areas like Physics, industry, construction, engineering.
When those are researched, they can branch out into tech-specific areas, such as "Armor Engineering".
Considering that we are starting with fission engine technology in a B5 universe, many more scientific branches should be represented.

Some examples:
- Geology
- (Advanced) Agriculture
- Atomic Physics
(to get the first few advances in resource extraction)

Nuclear Physics
Particle Physics
Quantum Mechanics
Low/High temperature physics.
Meteorology (Req'd before researching conditions improvement/terraforming?)
Genetics

[Val]

I actually noticed a few errors I need to fix - need to rework the "Ancient Tech" and I mispelled the word "Technology" in both Brakiri and Minbari Advanced Gravitic Weapons. These both cause trouble if you try to make a race and go through an research the techs - I'll fix them when I get home from vacation.

I like the idea of adding more general techs and will add those in - any other ideas?

Also - SJ - wanted to add miniaturization techs and Pirate/Nomad Techs to the mod for certain races. What do I need to 'clip' from P&N to make it work?

[Val]

Update14922Gamma.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1016301521.zip)

Ok, fixed the Ancient Techs and the Technology spelling errors. Also added the Molecular and Plasma weapons, Ancient Cockpits, reworked all the Ancient engines and reactors with an eye towards giving them seperate unique abilities at a future date. Also included some fixed components and new sounds.

[Suicide Junkie]

Um, any miniaturized components are copy-and-divide jobs.
The budget/premium mounts need to be avoided, due to the armor system used here.

The Pirate/Nomad techs use the racial traits "Regular", "Pirate", and "Nomad" as well as the tech areas "Not A Pirate", "Is A Pirate", and "Is A Nomad"
"Not A Pirate" should be renamed "Is A Regular".

Any techs & components can then require one of those areas.


PS: Also, an update to the armor, Here (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/b5/). Hmm. If that dosen't work, try here (http://65.93.102.169/tempstuff/b5).
All five files have changes throughout.

Armor Plan:
--------------
The armors already submitted are "Inert" armors, requiring Armor 1, plus various other techs to upgrade various characteristics. Forms a 5x6x3 matrix tech.

Armor 2 will provide for "Passive" armors, another 5x6x3 matrix tech.
Passive armor will be scattering/refractive/channeling/conductive/emissive armors.

Armor 3 will allow "Active" armor
- mobile armor, self-healing armor, (need some help with names!)

Ancient race techs will start at level 2 or 3.
Shadows work on super-powerful Passive, with minor active abilities, while Vorlon go for more active abilities and less Passive abilities.

The ancient gift armor can be moderate-Passive to low-active range tech, so they provide a major advantage at first, but other races that maintain research into armor can pass you in the long run.

- Research into physics 3 / gravity manipulation can provide some low power field-effect defenses. Actual power will be fairly low, to avoid stacking and invulnerability concerns.

[ 16 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Another update:
I've typed up the first two levels of passive armor (scattering and refractive).
They can be found Here (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/b5).
I'm currently using the inert armor primary/alt images for the scattering, and the rainbow stuff for refractive.
The shadow armor will look good as emissive or conductive, but I'm still stuck for the other two.

Val, would you mind creating some more armor images?
- An armor with ridges or veins crossing the tiles for the energy-channeling armor. Scaling up the texture on the shadow armor until you can see the lines weaving across the surface might look good.
- Then, a shadowy armor perhaps with the middle tile stretched into a spike (glowing tip?) for the emissive. Or something.

I'd like to save the gold, blue and green for the active armors. The reddish one could fit in there too.

Suggestions are always welcome!

[Val]

SJ:

Not a prob, I'll make some other armors next week http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, needed your help with the AI using the reactors/Engines. I know you've said to add useless abilities and make the AI require them - could you make a sample to show me how this works? Just take the Fission Engines (Light and Medium) and show me a sample, please http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

What Tech Areas/Levels should be added for the passive armors?

[Suicide Junkie]

The tech areas are included in the area I linked to. (Here) (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/b5)
ALL the files in there have been tweaked, including some of the older ones. The tech updates you need are all in there.


Here, the small engines are called for by using intel point generation, and the large engines by research point generation.

Remember that your supply of useless abilities is very limited, and only some can be used to "rank" various techs for the AI!

[jimbob]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Tech Areas.
I think we are a bit short on general research areas.
The pure research kind of area, one that can be applied to many fields.
IMO, we need more areas like Physics, industry, construction, engineering.<hr></blockquote>

I've been thinking about this, and so here are some of my ideas on non-biological, non-combat techs

Quantum Mechanics Branch
- Technology: Quantum Computation
- Facility: Multiple-Realities Research Centre, increased research Ratings because all of your researchers in all realities are working on the problem for you!! Multiple levels and link into the Applied Research field. Don't worry, all the other yous in all the other universes will also benifit from your scientists' hard work.
- Facility: Quantum Defence Calculator, the computer calculates all possible outcomes of combat in all universes, resulting in increased defences for all of your ships in the quadrant or the system (level dependent?)
- Facility: Quantum Sociology Predictor, I can't remember the SciFi series clearly, but the Uberscientists made a computer that could predict the actions of all individuals for several milenia into the future, resulting in stability and happiness... well until the predicted uprisings and civilizational decay started up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I can only see this amount of processing power coming from a quantum based computer. Increased happiness? Population growth? Decreased bad intelligence probability? All of the above?

Low/High Temperature Physics
-Technology: High Temperature Superconductor
- Facility: Planetary Power Recycler-Capacitor, the power grid is constantly charged with no power losses due to superconductivity. As a result, unused power can be shunted around the world to where it is needed (eg. the daylight side where everyone is awake and working), or it can be stored until needed. The Recycler-Capacitors would increase the "radioactive production" by 20 - 30% by eliminating wastes & provide some degree of "radioactive storage" in the power grids.
- Component: Ship Power Recycler-Capacitor, reduced maintenance due to lowered energy waste. Move over nomads!
- Component: Super-Conductive Nacelles, a Version of each engine that would have a superconductive power network, resulting in significantly less waste/consumption of supplies. Perhaps only engines at level 3, 6, 9, etc (ie Last Version of the engine series) should recieve this upgrade. Obviously more expensive to build... but think of the milage, all the way to Alpha Centauri on a single tank of gas!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Geology... Meteorology (Req'd before researching conditions improvement/terraforming?)<hr></blockquote>

Absolutely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif !! Planetary geology could be a requirement for lvl 3 mining (mines minerals from the deepest levels) and for lvl 3 radioactive processing. Astro-geology could be an offshoot needed for remote mining, or perhaps it would give more efficient remote mining components (which are currently useless for anyone except Pirates and Nomads IMHO). Good idea on meteorology... to bad there can't be separate requirements for ice, rock and gas planets!

See the next post for GMO's and advanced agriculture, genetics and other biotechnologies.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ 20 March 2002: Message edited by: jimbob ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

I don't think the multiple realities thing is really nessesary. It doesn't seem very appropriate for the B5 universe either.

What you could do, is get quantum computers specially designed for each of those tasks. Quantum computers get the whole infinite monkeys on typewriters effect in a single universe.
The quantum (http://www.qubit.org/intros/comp/comp.html) computer (http://www.sciam.com/1998/0698issue/0698gershenfeld.html) works by doing all the calculations at the same time on the same bit of equipment (http://www.qubit.org/intros/comp/inset1.html), IIRC.

[Suicide Junkie]

That's what the whole thread here is about!
You can probably get the most out of the shipsets and AIs at this point, but the components and vehicle sizes and stuff are pretty good for simulated combats.

Val's homepage (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~b5mod/) has links to everything.

[Andy Watkins]

Hello,

I am new to SEIV and don't really know what I am doing, but love B5. Is there a way of modding the game to use B5 races, space ships etc???

Andy
PS Please type your reply slowly, I don't read too fast :-)

[jimbob]

Suicide:

Ahh.. the multiple universe thing, isn't that one of the philisophical explainations of what superpositional states actually are? Is it the Copenhagen interpretion that suggests that every possible outcome should and does actually occur, resulting in an infinite number of product universes? (I might have the wrong interpretation here)

If a quantum computer turns out to be plausible, it would philosophically (or weirder yet, perhaps actually) calculate via superpositional states... which are actually all the possible universes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Hey I'm not a physicist, but I'm pretty sure this is a standard, if not scary interpretation of quantum physics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If this were so, then it wouldn't be the computer calculating something, it would be all possible universes worth of that particular computer calculating something. Now, I'm not sure if it makes for a good disaster predictor or combat predictor, but those quantum graphics cards will kick *ss! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

Sorry all, just got back from vacation and spent the day playing catch-up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm working on finishing the Last 3 weapon Groups (Electro-Magnetic, Gravitic and Planetary/Biotech) and a few assorted components (various solar panels, some miniaturized components for the Hyach, a few odds and ends). Once they are done I will start adding the other suggested techs and see where they can be applied to existing weapons and such (all suggestions welcomed and sought).

Rambie also sent me his latest adjustments to the Narn & EA shipsets - I'll post all changes in the next update so you don't have to redownload it all. I'll also incorporate SJs changes to the armor and the additon of the passive armors.

Master Belesarius is working on some basic AI that will work with our mod (and all it's crazy weapons and engines) and has had some success with getting the AI to build decent ships - other than some trouble with the engines (hence the earlier plea to SJ Last week).

Any questions or comments so far?

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, quantum computers aren't in the infinite calculations per second range at all.

If you built an 8-qubit processor, you get 2^8 = 256 operations at the same time.
A 32-qubit processor on a 1Hz clock does the classical equivalent of 4.3 GHz. One catch is you don't get any of those results back until the whole second is over (1Hz clock), but the average over time is quite nice.

[Val]

Andy:

Did you have any trouble getting the shipsets to work?

JB:

I'm with SJ, I don't really see the multiple-realities thing in B5 (though the idea is good) - though the kind of touched on it a bit with the B4 thing, though it seemed more that the other reality never would be since they were successful. I do think the Astro-Geology is a good idea for better Robo-Miners - something to make them more efficient than they are in the standard SE IV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

SJ:

You have some serious time on your hands, don't you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

SJ:

Good to see you're keeping everything in perspective http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Derb:

Everything is posted in a 'buffet style' so you can just pick and choose what you want - so it can be intergrated with any other mod with minimal work (we hope). Right now, if you download the Neutral Races and the Races you will get Shipsets that are good for any mod (old or Gold). The AIs that are currently posted are also designed to work with any standard mod - they don't yet take advantage of the new weapons or anything, but you will also want to download the designnames and Empire files. You can also use parts of the datafile to add to other mods (such as ttacking on the system names to the end of another file, or the titles). With minimal work you can also add the Events. All of the components can be found in SJs Image mod, so if you already have that, you won't even need to download that one. Hope this helped http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Klebdog]

Val, I finished most of the files that I was telling you about before. I had a little free time and I changed some other small stuff that I will test tonight and if it works I wil send you the files, or if you think it is worth it I will post it for general consumption.

[derb]

Can B5 be played with conventional weapons and AI (just keeping pics and attitudes) or is it tuned so you have to use the whole mod (which I presume changes weapons etc)?

[Suicide Junkie]

An update, all the passive armors are here (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/b5), with prices, sizes and everything.

All five Passive Armor techs have been updated!

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, I'm very busy. Been playing some SE4 for the first time in a while, but between turns I post.

[Master Belisarius]

Suicide Junkie:

I don't know if you have detected this problem or not, but I'm having problems with the AI and the engines: the AI doesn't like to design ships!!

Does exist 2 parameters for the engines of a ship: Minimum Speed and Desired Speed, right?

Although I wass using very low values, the AI was unable to design a valid ship.
The only way that I got some result, was with the Zero value for Minimum Speed: the AI have designed a ship, but without engines (not very
usefull!).

I have checked all the races in the game, and nobody have designed a ship!
Then, I have researched for the race that was testing, until Propulsion 4 and Fision Utilization 2, and still was unable to design a ship.
Ideas?

[Suicide Junkie]

MB: Private Message, so as not to flood the thread with code samples and overly technical discussion.

[Val]

Klebdog:

Posting for all to see is a good way to get everyone's opinions so I'd say make a general post if you're comfortable with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

SJ & MB:

I know you're posting all that AI stuff in a private message, but would you two be opposed to starting a new thread in the forum so those that are interested can read (and learn) along? Also, we might be surprised at some suggestions other AI modders might have come up with to make life easier.

[Suicide Junkie]

Actually, there's nothing to see yet, since MB apparently has not read the post below yet.
Public threads do tend to sink fast around here, so perhaps just a summary in here would be better.

[Val]

A post here would be just as fine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I sent MB an email to let him know!

I downloaded all the armor updates and will add them into the data file this weekend and post Monday http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Val]

I thought I saw some way to turn off the infinite supply for bases - was I halucinating?

[Suicide Junkie]

Yes, there is:
- Take all the base hulls, and change the vehicle type from "Base" to "Ship"
- Remove all emergency propulsion components, unless you are willing to allow bases to move.
- Change allowed vehicle types for components from base to ship.

[Klebdog]

Val,
I tried to post my changes on the site but I couldn't for some reason. If anyone wants to check out the files let me know and I will send it to you ASAP. All the files that I changed in the "Data File" are just based on ideas that I wanted to try out. Any feed back from the general public would be most helpful.

Thanks,
Klebdog

[Val]

KD:

To upload files use this link - Upload File (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=upload_form) - then upload the files. Then copy the text that comes back. Then open up a "New Topic", tell people what your ideas are for the mod you are working on and paste the link to your file there. From what you've E*Mailed me so far, your stuff looks good and I think you can get some great feedback from the people on this forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

SJ:

I haven't been able to get to the link to the armors you posted, could you possibly zip them all together and E*Mail them to b5mod@yahoo.com? Thanks much!

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: I sent the files (6KB zipped) Last night so you should have them now.

Does anybody have some suggestions for Active armor names? I'm hoping for about 5 levels, but I can't think of anything.
If all else fails, I may just go with copying the inert armor and making it self-heal (plus some tweaks to price/image/strength).

[Suicide Junkie]

Found a data file bug:
Where 300 != 1250 in the cargo storage ability.

[Val]

SJ:

Thanks and thanks again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Fixed the 300/1250 error, noticed a few more typos throughout during game play - mostly in the molecular weapons - and fixed them as well.

I'm working on adding your new armors to the main text files now and trying to take the time to finish the EM and Gravitic stuff.

For the armor names, how about using "Poly-Crystalline" and "Re-Enforced P-C" - it's the Minbari armor types.

[Val]

PS - I'm working on a way to make installing the mod a little easier http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Fyron]

Why don't you place it all in one zip file (except maybe the ship sets)? That would be a lot easier for non-modders/newbies to handle. I can understand why you'd want the various file types to be separated, so that if only one is updates, you wouldn't have to download the whole thing again. But why not have one file that contains the latest common release Version?

Also, the links to the files on your page are direct links to the ftp server. Your password is included in them. I suggest that you fix that ASAP before some unscrupulous person decides to mess your site up.

[Val]

IF:

Thanks! Will fix and will also post up a one shot zip.

SJ:

The armor tech areas don't include any of the new stuff - such as "Passive Armor Physics" or "Emissive Armor Manufacturing". Do you want me to just add all those tech areas with their level limits, or do you already have these available?

[Suicide Junkie]

Oops. I've got the armor tech areas.txt, I just forgot to move it to the uploads area.

I won't get home to upload it for another 10 hours, though.
I'll put it up as soon as I get home; if you don't want to wait, go ahead and add the areas, and you can update them later.

[Val]

SJ:

I'm not that impatient http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Besides, looks like I brought the wrong disk with me to work and I won't be able to post any of the weekend revisions either!

Had a quick question for you - the passive (emissive style) armors are meant to be available to all the races, right? What are the other armors you are working towards?

[Suicide Junkie]

The active armors are next up in tech after passives.
They can't really be organic armor regen, since that would interfere with the combat repairs for B5 gold.
Instead, these could be given the armor ability (since they heal over any holes).
Or, they could be internalized crystalline effects, like grav deflectors and whatnot

For the ancient race armors, they would be given high-power organic armor with crystalline effects as well. Internal damage to repairable systems would turn into a One-Round stun effect, since the OA ability would heal them on the next turn.
Shadows would get more emissive/crystalline, Vorlons would get more organic.

[Val]

Does anyone know if "Long Range Scanner - System" works for facilities? Does this just give scanning ability of everything that enters a system or ranged.

[Krsqk]

AFAIK, it is a facility ability. I've never tried it on a component. It's used somewhere in the Psychic tech tree in unmodded SEIV. Psychic System Scanner, or something like that.

[Val]

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[pathfinder]

argh *pathy holds head in hands* headache from reading about of this.

Good job so far guys!

Wish I had kept up with this earlier...a bear to find out where this one is!

If ya'll want a beta tester http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Val: the armor techareas is there now. 8KB instead of 2KB!

Pathfinder: You can download the v1.49 files from the B5 site, and bug reports are accepted from anybody, so go right ahead with the testing.
Feel free to comment on balance issues and "realism" as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Val]

Thanks SJ:

Unfortunately, I can't see the tempstuff/b5 folder on your imagemod again, might you E*Mail me the techareas?

I have added all the new armors to the most recent components file and will upload once I update the techareas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Working on scanners/cloaks right now (not that many races have cloak/stealth ability - just Torvalus and Technomages).


Pathfinder:

As SJ said, just download and test away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif As of right now there are no AIs that use the new components, but MB is working on the basis for them right now (well, if he is sane he is actually sleeping right now). Let us know of any errors you encounter as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[pathfinder]

okies, I'll set it up later today (been fooling around in DOGA for different effects http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

and setup a special map for it.

BTW is there a 1.49 mod manager around? (the one that came with Gold is wonderful)

[pathfinder]

Do these race-styles use the TDM-modpak or "plain" SEIV (v 1.49)?

I keep getting "can't find .emp file..." error ; I set the B5 races in their own mod folder.....

?

[Fyron]

The mod manager that came with Gold works for 1.49 too. It hasn't been updated in a long time.

[pathfinder]

Imperator: hehe, thanks, I tried and found it works.

[pathfinder]

*scratches head* set up a special SEIV for B5 only and put B5 races in TDM-mod pak...still get the error. I also get it in SEIV gold...

[Fyron]

The TDM Modpack only changes the AI files, so any vanilla AI will work in TDM, and the TDM AIs will work in vanilla SEIV.

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Unfortunately, I can't see the tempstuff/b5 folder on your imagemod again, might you E*Mail me the techareas?<hr></blockquote>My server isn't always up. Since it runs under windows, and there's six of us in the house, it does go down sometimes.
If you find it down, check back a few hours later. The status light on your B5 page is for the same server, so you can tell what's going on from there.

RE email. I don't have an address to send to.

[ 27 March 2002: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ]</p>

[Val]

SJ:

Didn't realize that, my appologies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . You can always E*Mail stuff to B5Mod@yahoo.com, I can send you my home address if you would prefer that though.

I had some trouble when I added the new techs to the game - would error out in the Components file somewhere in the armors. I've zipped them all together for you to look at and see what I did wrong (or for anyone else to see what is wrong).

NewArmor.zip (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newuploads/1017249020.zip)

Pathfinder:

The empires should work with any basic mod that does not change the RacialTraits.txt file. There are different emp files for 1.49 & Gold as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm putting everything insto a single zip for easy download of the mod, just waiting for more space from the host http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


Everyone:

Once I get the armor in I will post the newest files - which include revised sensors, stealth (only for limited races such as technomages), new race choices, weapons and jammers. Also some new component pics for the game.

[Suicide Junkie]

Any error in particular?

I'll check it out tonight.

[Val]

The first error was just a simple Ship\Base - Ship/Base mixup.

The current error is 'Can't load ... /components.txt'. I wasn't sure what was causing it at first, as I had added several things, but I narrowed it down to something in the armor components. Didn't get as far as seeing if it was a specific component or not (I was a bit tired) so I thought I'd ask y'all.

[pathfinder]

Error message I keep getting is can't load the .emp file. This in plain vanilla 1.49. Guess I'll re-do the .emp files and make some up for the Hyach, though I couldn't find any AI for them.

[Suicide Junkie]

That .EMP thing would be because of all the racial trait changes.

We should have said: AIs are completely compatible EXCEPT for .EMPs.
Just create some new EMPs by saving races that are randomly chosen for a game.

[pathfinder]

Looks like all .emp files will have to be redone..

[Val]

Yeah, all the emp files are going to need to be redone once we've finished messing with the Racial traits. I was trying to keep up with them, but it was too much of a pain - so they will be among the Last things done.

SJ:
Any luck finding the error? Nice job on Midway BTW.

[Suicide Junkie]

Sorry, too many things going on, and I totally forgot.
I'll check up on it as soon as I get home.

[Val]

Not a problem - I appreciated seeing Midway again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Found it.

Heavy Armor Class 4B:
"Tech Level Req 3 := 3"
was missing the 3 after the ":="

[Val]

You are a debugging god http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


(Edit) What about the Tech Areas? I couldn't find anything but Inert on your server so I just duped out those ones to cover them all. What prereq techs do you want for them?

[ 29 March 2002: Message edited by: Val ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

Were you looking in the ZIP, by any chance?

This (http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/tempstuff/b5/armortechareas.txt) is what you want.

[Val]

In the zip and at the text file you posted as well - it was dated as the 22nd or 24th?

[Val]

Hmm, I went back and now I can see them all!! I must be smoking something...


Have a new question for you, I'm trying to test the AI, how do I see what the I is building to know if it is working or not?

[pathfinder]

Is there now a password for the B5 webpage or is this an April Fool's? I can't access it now...
just wanted to see what was up..

[Val]

Not an April Fools joke by me at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As for someone else... who knows!


I am putting out a call for help - from those currently working on this mod and any lurkers that read about our progress that might be able to help. We do have volunteers to do the AI, but as of yet they have not been successful in getting the AI to build a ship - most likely because of a problem with the engines. While this mod is usable as a multiplayer mod, the goal is to have a decent AI that will provide a challenge. So the question is, can someone get the AI to build a ship using our Component.txt file? Do not worry so much about weapons or other extras, I would be happy to see an AI build a Colony Ship with engines and a reactor - and a Colony Module of course!

I have editted the data files on the PC I have been testing AI on so the engines would include 'useless' abilities, per SJ's suggestion, but have been unsuccessful (all the AI ever build are bases) and I have used the Supply ability as a flag for the Reactors (though the ship may also purchase solar pannels, but I'm all for alternate energy sources).

If someone can get the AI to build a colony ship, then our AI volunteers can move on the make each race a specialized AI which will provide us with a rather diverse game.

Please let me know if you want to pick up this challenge and I will post the generic AI and Data files - or whatever you require to give this a shot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks - in advance - to all who try!


In the face of possible defeat I have begun work on a new surprise for the loyal B5 Modders - a revised Map with Hyperspace sectors (just for added excitement and fun.


Anyway, I do have a new update if anyone wants me to post it. It updates a few of the Data files, some new components & sounds.

Details on Last two updates:

1.49.23 - Added races (Technomage, Sh'Lassa, Walkers, Mind Riders, Triad, B5 Ancients), along with all corresponding techs. Made Ancient techs available to only the individual Ancient Races. Added new Armors, revised Sensor Suites, Jammers, Steath Technology (Cloak and Coating), a few racial specific crew/bridges and some new component pics (Bulkheads, indvidual racial Crew Quarters, Fighter Rails, Launch Catapult and Cargo Pod) .

1.49.22 - Added explosive warheads (Fission, Fusion, AntiMatter, Gravitic-Kirshiac only), Kirishiac Kinetic Drive/warhead for ram-fighters, Ancient level fighter cockpits, weapons (Matter, Molecular, Plasma & Particle), some new component pics, more sounds. Reordered Cascor weapons so it works to that race's advantage. Removed duplicate Spinal Laser & Cobalt Warhead. Reworked Ancient engine types into: Hyperspace Tap, HyperspaceTap, BioDrives & Advanced Gravitic Drives. Fixed numbering of Shadow Molecular weapons, Interdictor PDF typo, PDF Multiphase Slicer typo, component pic on PDF Particle Beam, beam pic on Heavy Molecular Slicer, External Cargo Pod I cargo amount typo & engines per move error on Heavy Destroyer (I was shocked to see a Heavy destroyer going 22!!)

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Have a new question for you, I'm trying to test the AI, how do I see what the I is building to know if it is working or not?<hr></blockquote>I would assume you would just go to the game options menu, and set the AI to human control. Alternatively, you could turn on the design minister for a human race.

Best to ask an AI Guru, of course.

[pathfinder]

ATM I can't get the EA to build colony ships...no engines that will fit/work. They have to be researched. Problem 1: after researching (I prompted since that is WAY down the tech-tree) is the .bmp is missing for comp_675. Is there a compiled set of pics for these components and weapons or do I have to rename the ones I picked up (They have LP3 extension from DOGA)....


Update: Got game going (loaded components folder from my Gold setup). EA design will do engines but not the reactor (scout/escorts); therefore no supplies. I had to jumpstart the colony ships, they now have them but can go only 1 space (350 spaces for components isn't enough for colony ships atm) (1 engine-small with 1 medium reactor)

just wondering guys

your friendly beta-tester

pathfinder the losted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]</p>

[Val]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pathfinder:
ATM I can't get the EA to build colony ships...no engines that will fit/work. They have to be researched. Problem 1: after researching (I prompted since that is WAY down the tech-tree) is the .bmp is missing for comp_675. Is there a compiled set of pics for these components and weapons or do I have to rename the ones I picked up (They have LP3 extension from DOGA)....


Update: Got game going (loaded components folder from my Gold setup). EA design will do engines but not the reactor (scout/escorts); therefore no supplies. I had to jumpstart the colony ships, they now have them but can go only 1 space (350 spaces for components isn't enough for colony ships atm) (1 engine-small with 1 medium reactor)

just wondering guys

your friendly beta-tester

pathfinder the losted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]<hr></blockquote>

You found the DoGA Version of the components? Man, you must have had to dig quite a bit to find them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif All of the components (with a few exceptions that have yet to be submitted to SJ) can be found in the Image Mod that SJ has been dilegently working on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thank you for helping out with the testing, I'm actually considering scrapping the engines and starting over again from scratch to see if the AI can use the new set.

Just want to double check - you actually got the AI to build a ship with the engines but no reactor? In Version 1.49?

[Val]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by pathfinder:
ATM I can't get the EA to build colony ships...no engines that will fit/work. They have to be researched. Problem 1: after researching (I prompted since that is WAY down the tech-tree) is the .bmp is missing for comp_675. Is there a compiled set of pics for these components and weapons or do I have to rename the ones I picked up (They have LP3 extension from DOGA)....


Update: Got game going (loaded components folder from my Gold setup). EA design will do engines but not the reactor (scout/escorts); therefore no supplies. I had to jumpstart the colony ships, they now have them but can go only 1 space (350 spaces for components isn't enough for colony ships atm) (1 engine-small with 1 medium reactor)

just wondering guys

your friendly beta-tester

pathfinder the losted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]<hr></blockquote>

You found the DoGA Version of the components? Man, you must have had to dig quite a bit to find them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif All of the components (with a few exceptions that have yet to be submitted to SJ) can be found in the Image Mod that SJ has been dilegently working on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thank you for helping out with the testing, I'm actually considering scrapping the engines and starting over again from scratch to see if the AI can use the new set.

Just want to double check - you actually got the AI to build a ship with the engines but no reactor? In Version 1.49?

[Val]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
I would assume you would just go to the game options menu, and set the AI to human control. Alternatively, you could turn on the design minister for a human race.

Best to ask an AI Guru, of course.<hr></blockquote>


SJ:

I don't see that option in the menu (the one you get when you hit the escape key) - then again maybe I am blind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Where did you see that option?

[pathfinder]

Yup, the EA did, for the escorts/scouts. The Narn are acting strange (what else is new http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). They have 3 light fission reactors with 1500 storage and however many light engines to go 2 spaces but refuse to go further than 2 spaces, even though they have plenty of storage/energy left....

Oh and yes v 1.49 unmodded (except for the B5 stuff).

Basically there seems to be a problem with engine/reactor size proportionate to ship size or there is a problem with engine output. Not sure which or maybe both...

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]</p>

[Val]

Which AI are you using? How long did it take them to get to that point? Any other races showing signs of intellegent life http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[pathfinder]

Only the EA and I am NOT 100% positive they did it, cause they sure aren't repeating it (I may have done it when messing with sizes of engines/reactors to something to fit)....been a long night looking at what was going on....sorry if i caused any hopes/concern.

Only testing the EA & Narn atm.

[Val]

I found that if I predesign ships then the ministers will buiild them (no fooling you say). But, as you said, it is getting late and my brain is addled. Will work on this more tomorrow (yawn). Try to keep track of any edits you make to the mod files (esp the AI and components) so we can try to repeat any success you have had. So far I have seen the AI in my test game build bases, but no ships as of yet. I have tried to lower the min speed for some vessels to 1. I think I will edit the fission engines tomorrow (or is that today??) and see if that works. Else I will try to add a new engine type and see if the AI will use it!

Thanks again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Go get some sleep.

[pathfinder]

The EA are bulding the colony ships I have designed for the them but I modified ship and fission engine size so that I had enough space to make something that could go more than 1-2 spaces before returning for supplies. I'll detail those changes tonite. BLasted Narn still won't build anything nor will the population transports go farther than whatever "speed" is indicated (atm 2, so they only go 2 spaces). Their escorts, once designed and built, will go until supplies become an issue, then they return---as is normal.

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]</p>

[Suicide Junkie]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't see that option in the menu (the one you get when you hit the escape key) - then again maybe I am blind <hr></blockquote>
The top-left button with the checklist icon, that gives you the option to quit.
It also has an option labelled Players. Press that, and uncheck the computer control.

[Val]

SJ:

Thanks, will look at it tonight http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pathfinder:

I think I'm going to change the engines and reactors tonight and see if AI will build them. Let me know the details on what you managed to get the AI to do.

Thanks!

[pathfinder]

Val: these are my documented changes:

Colony ship size: from 300 to 400
Colony Component: from 200 to 150
Medium Transport: from 600-700
medium fission engines II thru V: 60 to 30
medium fission engines I: 60-20

with these changes I was able to at least get the EA to build and use these two ships. They also with even just 1 sector/space per turn would send escorts/scouts out to 1/2 mark on supplies. Same with the colony ships.

The Narn however, would sit in sector until I sent a colony ship to next sector, then the escorts/scouts would do the explore bit. The colony ships and transports would sit and only go out the max number of 1 turn movement even with loads of supplies.

Neither would do their own designs. The EA at least would use/build whatever design I made available.

One note: My first attempts were to use the small reactors and engines. This meant I had to use something like 8 small engines just to get a movement value of 1 in a colony ship. This may simulate a small engine pushing the large mass of a colony ship or medium transport. Means VERY slow going for these ships until medium reactors/engines researched. Also when used in a colony ship medium reactor/engine combo means 1 movement point per medium engine, not the "advertised" 7 per engine. In a small ship like an escort the movement value per engine is 7 as advertised.

It took 16 small engines to power a Narn Corvette 1 movement unit.

Also pic/bmp for repeater gun 1 missing from ship design menu/screen after being researched.

Hope this helps!

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]</p>

[pathfinder]

*bangs head on desk*

Seems the Narn will now build colony ships and upgrade Corvettes..... maybe I was dreaming or blind Last night...I did spend most of my time checking the EA but still I DID look at them....

Edit: seems this, on recelection, occured after I designed and Ice Planet colony ship.

still have a problem (perceived) with them not using population transports.

also tiny fission engine 1 pic/bmp not showing in design screen.

[ 04 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[ 04 April 2002: Message edited by: pathfinder ]</p>