Babylon 5 Mod

[Nomor]

Just to refresh your memory. This might be relevant to current discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif


This is a list of the PF 1.8 Gold Mod Facilities and their build times relative to population quantities. All are jubilant. All times are number of turns. 10 turns are equal to 1 year.Game Time.

_____________________Homeworld_Rock__Tiny-Domed__Domed
.................................................. ...2000m....... 500m..........100m.........4m...

Colony Hub I.....................................8........... .....52..............147.........191
Homeworld Hub...............................20.............. 148..............367..........477

Listening Post..................................2........... .......9...............25............33
Covert Ops Center............................3............... ..17..............47.............61

Manuf. Colony I................................6................ .35..............97............127

Military Outpost I.............................4..................2 7..............74.............96
Adv. Mil. OP I..................................7.............. ....41.............115...........150

Trading Port....................................2......... .........13...............35.............46
Recycling Center.............................3.............. ....16...............44.............57

Atmospheric Adjuster I.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ........11.................. 69 ..............193...........250 .....( + 600 to convert i.e. 60 yrs) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Medical Center I..............................2.................. ..9................25.............33

Archaeology Site I...........................1....................7 .................9..............25.....(
Educational Center I........................3...................17... ............47..............61

Mining Colony I...............................2................. ..10...............26..............34
Aggressive MC................................1............... .....5...............13..............17
Agricultural Colony...........................1................ ....6...............17..............22

Ship Yard I......................................4.......... .........25...............70.............91
Ship Yard II.....................................5.......... .........33...............93............121

Depot I...........................................7..... ..............43..............122............158

If playing PBW and one turn is taken per day then all the figures here represent the # days for construction of named facilities.It gets worse as the later levels appear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Yes I know.. sorry for the wonkey lines again.. didn't have time to test "code" key

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
1) The point was that in a LAN setting, you can play a lot of turns at a time. But in PBW, you don't get to do this...

2) Actually it is 46 turns for the Trading Post... dropping off 250 million pop dropped it to 23 turns. I was thinking of the Colony Hub, which is 96 turns with 274 million pop. A mining colony I takes 17 turns with that level of pop. Now try to develop multiple worlds at a time, you need all of the population from the homeworld. Granted, a mining colony I makes 2000 minerals and 1500 radioactives, but ships cost a lot more resources to build in the mod. Homeworlds do not get anything special except for a single Homeworld Hub, which is not very productive, just has several misc abilities and some storage. This is what makes it take so long to develop anything in the mod... It is definitely no Proportions, but it is still rather slow. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Fyron. I'm playing a solo game, having to almost deplete a homeworld of it's population to populate other worlds to try to cut down on some time is ridiculous. I'm finding myself cutting down on transporting my transports so that my homeworld can build up it's population again before I send more people out. I don't have any suggestions, but surely some method can be done to improve on this.

[Nomor]

Just to go off topic a moment: Heavy Bolter ; Medium Bolter ; and Light Bolter under General and Particle Weapons . These have no description in components file.

I take it that this is a Plasma Bolt firing weapon ??? I've come up with several descriptions that I tried to shoehorn into the components.txt file.

However I'd like to be sure that I'm on the right track. Here are three Versions. I tend to go for the shorter but the longer might work for the first variant of each type?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Fires self-contained bolts of plasma. Less range than beam weapons , slow delivery is countered by impressive damage even against a technologically advanced enemy. Incoming bolts are traceable with radar. (Bold may be removed to make even shorter)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The mainstay weapon of low-tech fleets: Firing super charged bolts of plasma maintained by a self- generated containment field. Less range than beam weapons, slow delivery is countered by impressive damage even against a technologically advanced enemy. Incoming bolts are traceable with radar.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Fires super charged bolts of plasma maintained in their shape and density by a self- generated containment magnetic field. Less range in respect to the beam weapons, plus slow delivery are countered by impressive damage even against a technologically advanced enemy. Incoming plasma bolts are traceable with radar.


Comments please: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ June 14, 2004, 23:02: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Nomor]

Back on topic: There's actually nothing wrong with most of the facilities for Single Player if they can be regarded as late tech for advanced /mature colonies.

With the exception of the Trading Port and Atmospheric Adjuster which I feel should be quick constructs.

However we need Smaller, Quicker constructed facilities that are purpose built for fledgling Colonies. We need mining facilities that can be erected in 2 or three turns by >100m, that don't have to be hard to destroy and don' produce massive amounts or have multi purpose abilities.

eg. Research Station; Mining Station; Organics Farm; Comms Relay Post; Gas Station.... etc.

I'd also like Listening Posts to have ranged scanning abilities and for Asteroid fields to have a low level cloaking effect on ships that "park" in them, so that we have to place satellites or have ships close by to inspect Asteroid for hidden ships. Early on in the game this would allow you to hide if you had a bad reaction to your diplomatic fumblings, with Dutchman with Polish Girlfriend, or other such folk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
..
I must be going mad did someone re-edit my edit?? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ June 17, 2004, 20:22: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Nomor]

I talk to the trees... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

A Question for the Mod guru's: How does one make troops have a maintenance cost of say 1kT organics per turn. I want to imply a requirement to feed and supply troop in the field.
At present there is very little forcing one to have any need for organic production over what the homeworld provides. Each troop regardless of "rank" should require some sort of maintenance cost and this might as well be organics.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

i dont think troops can be made into units that require maintaince. IMHO fighters, troops, mines, sats and weapon platform have no maintaince, which is hardcoded. I would be glad to here this is wrong though.

[Nomor]

How and where are the maintenance values for ships determined then?
I searched all the files I can think of but can't find any setting that could be manipulated...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Aiken]

The only way to simulate maintanence on units is to set negative value for Generate Points Organics ability on units. However I don't think it would work on units in cargo. It has been discussed a while ago and don't remember the exact result of this. Try to search for latest patch wishlist tread. It should be where.

The default maintanence is defined by the
Empire Starting Percent Maint Cost := xx(25 in stock) string in the Settings.txt. You can adjust it directly on ship hull with Modified Maintenance Cost ability.

[ June 17, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: aiken ]

[pathfinder]

What would one have to modify to cut the build time for facilities? Costs (as in minerals, organics, radioactives?)?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Nomor:
How and where are the maintenance values for ships determined then?
I searched all the files I can think of but can't find any setting that could be manipulated...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This line in Settings.txt determines the base maintenance rate:

Empire Starting Percent Maint Cost

[Ragnarok-X]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
What would one have to modify to cut the build time for facilities? Costs (as in minerals, organics, radioactives?)? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">pathfinder,

- either decrease the costs for the facilitys (usually especially minerals)
- increase the basic build rate (in settings.txt)
- increse pop modifiers (so more pop will increase the build rate
- increase build rate for spaceyards (so planets with spaceyards can build way faster)
- decrease cost for spaceyards (so planets can get faster spaceyards which enable faster building.

[Goatfoam]

Guys, I couldn't download the expanded facilities file from the Babylon 5 site, for the great war. Could someone email it me please?

[Goatfoam]

Nevermind, it was my download manager causing the problem.

[Timstone]

Bumpski!
Grumbler must still have problems with his internet. Last time we spoke he told some stupid electrician had cut his telephoneline. Hope he'll be back soon.

[grumbler]

Okay, back in battery. Some sewer maintenance guys (I think one of them was Ed Norton) cut my buried phone line and the interim "hand-laid" line had so much noise my modem couldn't connect at speed. Some fora I could get to, but this one kept timing out.

I managed in the meantime to fix some facilities problems, and found that i could get the Ai to build small ships, but still have this major problem: the AI will build escorts now, but still seldom anything larger (but occasionally up to Heavy Destroyers). What is the limit 9for I can only think there must be one) on the time that the AI will spend on building any ship?

Here is the crux of the mystery, as far as I can tell: the AI will design every ship its tech allows. However, even though AI_D_C calls for all warships to be called "Design Type: Attack Ships" the resulting designs are ALWAYS called by their hull size, e.g. Light Cruiser (and once one gets past HD, it is always the hull size next above the one it is actualy using). Naturally, since the AI_C_V never calls for the construction of anything with a Design Type of "Light Cruiser" the LC design cannot enter the construction queue. I believe that all the designs that are e.g. "Heavy Destroyer" I have seen are upgrades to existing ships - but how can the AI upgrade to a design it cannot build?

This has been a real show-stopper. In three months of testing and tweaking I haven't found the solution. Can it be that there can only be the single design type of Attack Ship (size 10 kt - 5,000 kt) as in the core game? I cannot believe this, as I remember this function working in the base B5 mod, and it had as I recall a bunch of attack ship types.

however, I cannot make it work, and would appreciate any help anyone can give.

I do have a workable "prototype" for everything else, barring weapons (which Timstone has a great design model for). Facilities work, but need to be "racialized." Engines, reactors, and all of the ship, base, and unit components work. Even the "discovered" technologies now seem to work, except the "unique ship class" which the AI won't build because of the aforementioned problem.

Does anyone have ANY thoughts on the lack of AI-built larger warships? It will build battleship-and-above-sized troop transports, minesweepers, and whatnot but not warships.

[TNZ]

Well, this is what I’m doing in my adaption of the Star Trek Mod with the AI design creation files and AI Construction vehicles files for warships. The AI builds the three class of starships without a problem.

AI Design Creation file:
Name := Explorer Class Starship
Design Type := Attack Ship

Name := Medium Class Starship
Design Type := Attack Ship

Name := Heavy Class Starship
Design Type := Attack Ship

AI Construction Vehicles file:
AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := 22
Entry 2 Type := Explorer Class Starship
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 120
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 5 Type := Heavy Class Starship
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 6 Type := Medium Class Starship
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 60
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 4

[pathfinder]

Grumbler: On construction of ships---make sure that you put the larger ships size on top in designcreation. Take note how the B5 Version Val & I did ( eg battleship is "on top of battle cruiser). Had similar problem in "original" B5 mod until I got that order straight.

[ June 26, 2004, 03:05: Message edited by: pathfinder ]

[PvK]

The ship construction is weird and has been explained in several other threads. This may not be clear, but in a nutshell, ships of the same BASIC type (Attack Ship, other hard coded values) count against the amount requested in that file, even if they have different custom names, so:

Build 5 attack ships
Build 6 MYattackShipClass
Build 17 MyOtherAttackShipClass
Build 3 MyThirdAttackShipClass

Will get the AI to build 5 Attack Ships, then 1 of the next type (6 minus 5), then 11 of the other type (17 minus 6), then NONE of the third special type, because there will already be 7 attack ships by the time it falls through to that line, and it only requests 3.

PvK

[pathfinder]

Grumbler: If that doesn't work. Maybe look at the construction vehicle file(s) and see when larger ships can be built; sometime there are turn limits in those (eg only escort until turn 20).

[Timstone]

Alrighty then, Grumbler is back in business!!
Let's hear a cheer for technology and a little bit of oldfashion luck.

*Cheers loudly with a brewski in his hand*

Grumbler: I've come up with a variety of weapons everyone can live with. The Ancients (if we ever include them that is) will get fewer weapons becasue they simply don't have many wepaons, they're just hideously strong. And the younger races get a little bit more weapons. Not every race has an equal number of weapons, but they're a little bit cheaper to chose. The engines, I must admit I haven't worked on them yet.

Me being here in Italy (still), isn't helping a lot. I'm mailing from a cafe in the hotel I'm staying. Lucklily I have my beautiful secretary with me (my GF), so it isn't just work, work, work. The best thing is, I getting payed to travel around with my GF and solve cool problems. Yeah, this rocks. Too bad I can't spend as much time as I want in making nice 3D models and the B5 mod.

Oh, lately I'm busy with another little mod. Nothing special, but it might be fun when I complete it. Some cool ideas in that mod. I might add. The basis of the mod isn't my idea (unfortunately), but still it's going to be great. IF I finish it.

Edit: Oh look, my number of Posts is equal to ten times the gravitational constant;
9,81 m/s^2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 26, 2004, 14:42: Message edited by: Timstone ]

[grumbler]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
Grumbler: On construction of ships---make sure that you put the larger ships size on top in designcreation. Take note how the B5 Version Val & I did ( eg battleship is "on top of battle cruiser). Had similar problem in "original" B5 mod until I got that order straight. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That sounds like a winning answer. I can see that my order is inverted from yours. Thanks - you have repaid me for the "two Living CPUs fix." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Nomor]

Timstone:

Is, uh,.... Is your GF a goer,eh?

Know what I mean...nudge nudge, know what I mean, say no more?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Timstone]

Hahaha... I think you mean if she is a "hoer". Nope, she is not. Hahaha...
But thanks for this uplifting thought. Thumbs up for you!

[Nomor]

No.. no... Don't get me wrong. Does she go.. eh, know what I mean. Is she a go - er, does she go..

Or.... Is, your , is your GF a sport, eh?

Does she like games, eh? Likes games, eh? Knew she would.... That’s good, that’s good! A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
If the penny doesn't drop after this I'm going to have to come clean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ July 01, 2004, 18:43: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Timstone]

Hmm... now you've lost me. I thought I had a decent grip on English, but it seems I'm out of my league here. I'm afraid you have to come clean good Nomor.

[Raging Deadstar]

Originally posted by Timstone:
Hmm... now you've lost me. I thought I had a decent grip on English, but it seems I'm out of my league here. I'm afraid you have to come clean good Nomor. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I could save Nomors hide by explaining this to you timstone by PM, but i think the comedy value of this will be too rich to pass up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Nomor]

I think I'm going to have to save my own hide on this score.

One more try. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

You’re a man of the world, Timstone? Yes?

I mean, you’ve been around a bit, you know, like, you’ve, uh… You’ve ‘done it’…?

[Raging Deadstar]

Nomor: I saved you the embarassment and sent Timstone a PM, Your hide is saved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Upon further thought i decided to delete said Private Message to see Timstones response http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ July 02, 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ]

[Nomor]

Just two more Posts! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Timstone: Know what I mean, know what I mean...?
Yes..? No..?

[ July 03, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Timstone]

Hahaha.... LOL!!!
Both by RD's PM and your foreLast message I finaly got it. Now I know what you mean.

Well, let me put it this way: YES!!
I mean, what good is a relationship if you only get half the fun and the full load of misery (their periods, the constant naging about new shoes, all the crap about her being too fat, etc.)?
Thanks for this entertaining conversation. I really needed that. Haha... Thumbs up for you guys.

P.S. Nomor, you owe RD something. He really saved you there from the overwhelming stupidity of the Terrible Dutchman.

RD, Nomor, if I ever going to marry, you guys should be there too. Just wait a while, well a long while. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

Lol, dammit, i'm assuming the PM was also sent by e-mail, thusly ruining my fiendish plan once i deleted it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Timstone: You'll hit yourself once Nomor announces where this entire conversation is from http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 03, 2004, 17:08: Message edited by: Raging Deadstar ]

[Nomor]

SAY NO MORE!!

Timstone: http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/movies/hollywood-bowl/14-nudge-nudge.html

I thought I might be going a bridge too far; but all's well that ends well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I was looking forward to my Last line. But the journey was half the fun.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ July 05, 2004, 18:39: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Timstone]

I knew where you got the line from. Who doesn't know that?!

Going a bridge too far? As in, me getting mad or something? Nah, I know who talks to me. Better you guys than people who are actually wired correctly in their heads... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Timstone]

Bumpski!

Why what do you know?! My 1000th post!! Jippie!
1000 Posts of total nonsense and gibberish. Off to the 2000 Posts!

[Raging Deadstar]

Lol, I got there a few weeks ago http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Here's too more gibberish Timstone!

Drop in the cantina to celebrate if you have time! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Timstone]

Wow, thanks RD!!
But I'll have my brewski here. I can't make it to The Cantina, too much trouble getting in with my gearbox and all... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sorry for the little personal intermezzo, but I'll be away due to unforeseen factors in reallive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

You guys hear from me when I can................

[Ragnarok-X]

any news on the mod ?

[Nomor]

My ... you can hear a pin drop.

[ July 18, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: Nomor ]

[Antarian]

http://scifi3d.theforce.net/default.asp

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Ragnarok-X:
any news on the mod ? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately, I have gone as far as I can with Version 2.0. I would certainly like some input on "racializing' the planetary facilities, but the ship components, systems types, et al seem to be in place and working, bar the weapons. I cannot do anything with the weapons because I lack the books on which it has been agreed (sensibly) that they be based.

So, here we are. If anyone wants to push this through to a final stage, send me a PM and I will send all the relevant files.

[grumbler]

Wow, talk about a thread-stopper! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Does no one want to further discuss the facilities? Racialized facilities are a key to the flavor of the game, IMO.

[Timstone]

Hi Grumbler,

I'm still busy with RL. Sorry. These days I'm nothing more than a lurker.
I'm of no use anymore. Damn, I'm getting old... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
However, I'm still busy with a little mod of my own, it reaches more advanced stages right now. Give me another month or two, and there will be another mod for SE IV Gold. No promisses of course.

Till soon... I hope!

[Ragnarok-X]

well i would certainly like to continue the work, unfortunally im busy with my own mod, too.

Grumbler, why dont you think up new racial facilites bases on the race instead of books or something. So Minbari would get research / tech facilites. Narn maybe combat or war based facilites...same for centauri.. ?! anyone ?

[Spectarofdeath]

Just a quick question, has anyone expeirenced a problem with the comp AI? I've been playing a single player with the the B5 mod, and the AI never seems to colonize anything.

[Spectarofdeath]

I don't think so, at least I'm not seeing any

[grumbler]

Originally posted by Spectarofdeath:
Just a quick question, has anyone expeirenced a problem with the comp AI? I've been playing a single player with the the B5 mod, and the AI never seems to colonize anything. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is the AI designing/building colony ships? I remember there was a bug some time ago that kept the AI from successfully designing colony ships, and it may have crept back in.

[AMF]

I have a question to all you Bab5 types out there. I've never seen the series, but I noticed tonight that netflix has up to season 5 and "the gathering" (whatever that is). Every now and then, when my wife is out of town, I have time to watch things like this. Realizing I might be asking the converted, Are these worth getting into? Is the long-term time investment worth going through all 5 seasons to the end? And how many seasons were there (I don't want to rent them if I can't follow it through to the end)? And what is the gathering? And please don't give me any spoilers, just the facts ma'am...

I tried FarScape and found it a bit too corny for my tastes. I much prefer linear and epic plotlines, with beginngings, middles, ends, and character development. Farscape really didn't seem to have that...I'm hoping Bab5 does...

thanks in advance for any advice,

Alarik

[pathfinder]

Originally posted by alarikf:
I have a question to all you Bab5 types out there. I've never seen the series, but I noticed tonight that netflix has up to season 5 and "the gathering" (whatever that is). Every now and then, when my wife is out of town, I have time to watch things like this. Realizing I might be asking the converted, Are these worth getting into? Is the long-term time investment worth going through all 5 seasons to the end? And how many seasons were there (I don't want to rent them if I can't follow it through to the end)? And what is the gathering? And please don't give me any spoilers, just the facts ma'am...

I tried FarScape and found it a bit too corny for my tastes. I much prefer linear and epic plotlines, with beginngings, middles, ends, and character development. Farscape really didn't seem to have that...I'm hoping Bab5 does...

thanks in advance for any advice,

Alarik <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only thing I can tell you for sure is that there were 5 seasons. I only got to see 1-2 shows which were pretty good.

[Timstone]

There are a few movies made from Babylon 5.
The first is Babylon 5: The Gathering
The second is Babylon 5: In the beginning
"The Gathering" was the pilot episode and "In the beginning" is the story in a nutshell. The other movies are (chronological): "Thirdspace", "River of Souls" and "A call to arms", but there isn't a DVD Version of those yet (there will be in a short period of time).
There are 5 seasons of Babylon 5, but there are at least one season (I don't know how many) of "Crusade". Crusade begins with the end of season 5 of B5. The Earth is infected with a nasty virus and is quarantined, a crew is going to look for a cure. There is also a spinnoff which has the name "The legend of the Rangers". I've never seen anything from that serie, so I don't know how or what.

If you want a more complete explanation of Babylon 5 and it's episodes, go here:

Lurker's guide to Babylon 5 (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/lurker.html)

[Timstone]

Damn you Geo, you took post #4300!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Ah well, I think I´ll have to settle for #4301. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Atrocities]

Posts don't matter, its content. I took 4302 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

I would certainly reccommend it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I saw Babylon 5 In the Beginning off my friend a year ago. He currently has seasons 1-4 on dvd (season 5 is out in october me thinks on dvd) and I Finally started watching them a few weeks ago. I'm on Season 4 now and i can tell you now you certainly won't regret it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Timstone: I'm unsure but i think Legend of the Rangers might be a movie, i've seen it under movie listings on sattelite but never watched it.

[geoschmo]

Legend of the Rangers was a movie that was also supposed to be a pilot for a possible spinoff series. But I also never saw anything else about the series so maybe it didn't get the interest they were hoping for. Personally I thought Legend was pretty good, but it was the first B5 thing I had ever seen except for bits of episodes while flipping channels, so maybe it suffered by comparison?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

As long as your content with your content, with which you give your message contents. 4303

[ August 06, 2004, 07:04: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ]

[gregebowman]

I missed the pilot episode, but bought the dvd. But like most of my dvd purchases, I still haven't watched it yet. I've seen most of the episodes, but there are some gaps in my viewing. And I can't afford to buy the sets. Still thinking about layaway, but haven't done it yet. Alarikf, I think this show will meet most of your criteria for plotlines. The first season seems like it's just a different story each week, but you do get a lot of characterization and background of most of the characters. The rest of the seasons do build upon that, and lead up to the shadow war. From what I saw of Farscape, I think you'll like B5 much better.

[Timstone]

Grege:
Don't forget that one entire season equals to one year in the B5 universe. That's why it seems that time really flows in the B5 universe. It really gives you the idea that it is a real universe, a universe that has more to offer than only the B5 station. A great plus of the serie.
#4305! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Timstone]

Putting it back on the scanners again after the change. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Nomor]

Took me ages to find this darn thread.
When did this all happen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Graemlins still work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Timstone]

This happened quite recently. I went away for one short night and BAM, the whole forum changed. I wasn't even warned on forehand. Ah well, I´ll get used to it... in time. But I do hate the reverse order. Fortunately Richard is going to change that.
And yes the whole bucket of smileys still work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[grumbler]

I have a question to all you Bab5 types out there. I've never seen the series, but I noticed tonight that netflix has up to season 5 and "the gathering" (whatever that is).

"The Gathering" was, as others have pointed out, the pilot. It isn't considered part of the first season, it is a 2-hour telemovie. It has some pretty rough edges, but sets up the main Season 1 plotline with the phrase "there is a hole in your mind." That hole isn't really resolved until the end of season 3.


Every now and then, when my wife is out of town, I have time to watch things like this. Realizing I might be asking the converted, Are these worth getting into? Is the long-term time investment worth going through all 5 seasons to the end? And how many seasons were there (I don't want to rent them if I can't follow it through to the end)? And what is the gathering? And please don't give me any spoilers, just the facts ma'am...

Dunno if it would be worth it to you, but there are some things that make it worth the risk:
1. This show is the complete brainchild of one man, JMS (aka Joseph Michael Straczinski, but JMS to everyone via his usegroup tag). He was dedicated to showing reasonable science (no "particles of the week," no plots resolved by inverting the phase transducers of the particle emitters, no technospeak at all). This is just pure storytelling.

2. There are no cutesy kids or cutesy robots. JMS hates cutesy. There is real comedy, but of the bitter, adult sort. You will laugh out loud, but it will be at lines like
Charactor 1: "I hate my life"
Charactor 2: "I hate your life, too."

There is true wisdom as well. The lines from the show sound trite outside their context, but you will really ponder after watching the show such lines as "The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us....

We know only that it is always born in pain.'"

3. It is a complete story. It was always scheduled for 110 episodes, no more, no less. Popularity of the show wasn't going to make it have a sixth season, period. There was a minor glitch halfway through the fourth season when the Warner Brothers execs told JMS to wrap the story by the end of the fourth season, and so the ending of the story's main plot points is accelerated to complete them by season's end (and only after that was the show bought by TNT and goven its final season) but the ultimate episode was luckily banked and saved until the end of Season 5. Season 5 is thus less even than the others, as it includes stories that should have been brought out in season 4, but by the time you get to that opoint you will either be hooked or turned off, so it isn't an issue.

4. JMS wrote 90% of the stories himself (and every one of them between halfway through season 2 until early season 5, something like 70 of them in a row) and all of the "wham" episodes of the earier and later seasons. Plus, he coujd change any of the other scripts as he needed. Plot and dialogue are absolutely consistent. There are no loopholes, nothing unresolved, no anomolies. No convenient timetravel, no planets with Nazis, no changing the basic honesty of the concept.

5. It is a story about charactors. It would work in the Wild West, in Victorian England, in Ancient Egypt. The story is about 3 things: the choices that are made, the consequences of those choices, and the ability of people to accept the responsibility for those choices. The SF angle is just a storytelling device. Never does science or fiction come between the charactors and their choices.

6. The music is a huge part of the appeal. Christopher Franke is a master muscial storyteller, and he had access to a full orchestra and chorus. Money was saved by having skimpy sets, but never by having skimpy music. JMS allowed Franke to do his thing. At one point, in the only episode JMS directed, his instructions to Franke were simple: "Just make me cry." You will cry at that point, at well. And at many points along the way. Each season, the theme music gets deeper and more complex. By the fifth season, you will be rewinding just to hear the theme again.

7. Rewatchability is extraordinary. JMS loves - just loves - to lay out plot lines that are not resolved for two or three seasons. The pilot is chockablock full of things that only make sense after three or four seasons (and one casual line isn't resolved until season 5). You will want the whole set so you can go back and see how the whole story is told to you in advance, only you didn't understand the references at the time.

7. JMS laid out everything on the web a long time ago, and has continued to be an active web poster on the tpic to this day. The depth of thought that went into B5 is extraordinary, and it shows by the way JMS can explain everything. There are some really special websites out there (PM me for details) that discuss this with JMS and other fans all the time, and I still learn new things daily about a show that premiered ten years ago. It is that deep, and JMS is that accessable.


I tried FarScape and found it a bit too corny for my tastes. I much prefer linear and epic plotlines, with beginngings, middles, ends, and character development. Farscape really didn't seem to have that...I'm hoping Bab5 does...

Two completely different ideas of what an SF show is, and not comparable. B5 is more like everything that was good about DS9, but distilled.

You may have noted that I am a fan. What can I say? The whole series is really remarkable for two things: the dedication is its creator to his vision, and the ability of the crew to accomplish miracles of vision and sound on their budget. The latter may someday recur, but the former never will. The human cost is simply too high. JMS was physically destroyed by the experience - his health will never be the same. He will be the poster-boy for excesssive dedication to artistic vision in the TV medium for our lifetime, and the show is worth seeing in it entirety if only to show what one man can do if he simply stops having a life in pursuit of an ideal.

BTW, post 200 for me. Do I get promoted?

[brianeyci]

I saw B5 when I was 14, I think I watched the whole of season 4 by the time I was 16. Awesome show, the best SF series on television IMO... actually a reason to watch, watching B5 and Star Trek is like night and day, one focuses on a continuing storyline that makes you want to watch... I didn't mind if I missed a couple of ST episodes, but missing my B5... heh heh I wish I had DVD's of them... now I don't have cable anymore so oh well. =D

[brianeyci]

I just took a quick peek at the mod. Before I say anything, I'd like to acknowledge that a lot of people probably put a lot of hard work into the mod and deserve kudos =D

Now that that's over with... a quick glance and I could find spelling mistakes, missing fields in component details and so forth. What's more sad is the lack of background and detail to the races. There's no description, and the facilities seem generic. I took a quick look at a couple races, and they didn't seem to be what I expected. Minbari are scientists rather than religious zealots? Humans are scientists rather than merchants? Sheridan the leader of the humans rather than a pic of Pres. Clark? hrm... also I couldn't find the B5 map, and playing on a randomly generated map doesn't seem to have the same glitz... I'm also pretty new to SE:IV, so I don't know what the scenario button is for, but are "scenarios" missions? In that case, the inclusion of scenarios mirroring certain points in the B5 season... The Great War, the Earth/Minbari war, Shadows vs Vorlons, perhaps with small systems and limited turns/goals would make the mod fun...

Unfortunately, I'd have to say I'm disappointed in the mod... as this is the first mod I've run, I don't really think I can judge it... it might be a really well worked out mod compared to others... but the lack of B5 lore is pretty disappointing... I'm not really a B5 fanatic but the reason why I would play B5 or ST or SW or anything other than the stock game is not for balance issues, but to be immersed in the universe...

Oh well. Maybe it is fun, maybe the AI's are cool/smart maybe it is well balanced etc... but, playing AI's is not what I got SE:IV for, and if I want balanced I'll play the stock =D.

Brian

[Timstone]

Great post Grumbler. Good to hear from you again.
Thumbs up for you my friend!

[Raging Deadstar]

I Have to agree with some of the points here. So here's some Suggestions.

Shipsets - Some of them aren't that good i'll be honest. I've been searching the internet for decent pictures of Earth Alliance ships (mainly 3d model renders) for a personal shipset and they're coming out quite well. If i can get pemission to use them in a Public released set i'll send them to you. I'm also thinking of doing the same for the Minbari/Narn/Centauri. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Also I'm pretty sure a lot of us could contribute by creating biological/social/history descriptions for the empires while leaving the major modding stuff to the main team.

The Mod Itself. I'm not that keen on many of the component pictures but thats just me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif The Main problem and let down so far is the rather slow gameplay. I would personally prefer a faster game. Maybe use FQM's scale of population to balance off the huge space cargo bays have and allow empires to develop quickly. For Players who think B5 games shouldn't be about huge massive empires set it up to play "Players can only colonise Breathable planets" or something. All races should have simmilar tech for basic facilities like Mineral Miners and such but each race should have their own facilities and bonuses depending on their race.

Earth Alliance:
Intelligence Centers - Nightwatch Recruitment Center/Ministry of Peace HQ/Psi Corps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Happiness Facilities - ISN Broadcast Center
Planetary Shields/Combat Modifiers - G.O.D Aegis Defence Grid (No scorched earth anyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Ship/Fleet Training Facilities - Earthforce Academies
Medical Facility - Edgar Industries

Minbari:
Research/Planet Conditions - Religious Caste Temples
Any Combat Modifier/Training Facilities - Warrior Caste Related
Resource Modifiers/Spaceyards - Worker Caste Related
Intelligence Centers - Anla-shok/Ranger Outpost
Happiness Bonus - Halls of the Grey Council

Centauri:
Resource Production - Slave Labour Camps (Preferably Narn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)
Happiness Production - The Centaurum or Something equally as noble. Or maybe a Centuari Temple devoted to the "Goddess of Passion". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Combat/Training etc - Something made up that sounds very royal and has to do with the Emperor.
Intelligence - Centauri Diplomatic Hub (as we all know what centauri diplomacy is like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

Narn:
Happiness Facilities - Temple of G'Quan (or G'Kar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Resource Related - Global Reconstruction Facilities.
Research - Narn Backwards Engineering Plant

I'm flat out of ideas now but i'll try and get some more ideas posted for you to think over.

Edit: As for creating a B5 Map i'm pretty sure there's maps out there where we could compile a bunch of B5 system names at least

[Timstone]

RD:
My goodness, I never thought there could come any intelligent Posts out of you my good friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Really clever comment.
I must say I agree on some of the things you two bring up, BUT have you ever taken a look at the sheer size of the mod?! It is HUGE. I've been working on very small mod myself, but only when you have ever attempted to make a mod yourself you notice what kind of effort goes into producing a large mod.
It's a shame Val went away (died?), because he had the whole plan in his head/on paper, and following up on his work is a difficult taks. Grumbler and I attempted to create 2.0, but the sheer size of this beast made us tired after a while. Grumbler did most of the work and I couldn't do my part anymore because of RL, so the will to go on quickly dissipated. Da Path has made the old B5 Mod up to date. He never intended to expand it, he just made it up to date.
I think we'll wait untill SE V comes along and maybe then we'll begin again with a B5 Mod. I surely would love to participate in it, but that still lies in the future.

[Raging Deadstar]

RD:
My goodness, I never thought there could come any intelligent Posts out of you my good friend. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Really clever comment.



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I am laughing so hard at that comment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif You know me too well Timstone

I agree though, The MOD Is huge, obscenely so. It's shame really, But i certainly look forward to the inevtiable SEV B5 Mod, that will be interesting. I'll probably be willing to lend my ideas and support as well now i have watched All but season 5 of B5 (waiting for october http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif).

What disappointed me mainly wasn't the mod itself, It's impressive and unique. It was just the shame of the speed of the game. But other than that i thought what people had done was great, it was seriously an epic mod. (Components files around 3mbs in size LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Thanks for the appreciation.
And, yes, I do think there will be a SEV B5 Mod... eventually.
Untill that time, I'll be doing some work on the small mod I'm making. Don't expect too much of it, it's still in the thinking area for a great deal.
RD, you will have to wait a little bit longer. Coz, all the movies are going to be released on DVD as well. Damn, an even longer wait. Sometimes I hate it that I live in Europe.
Babylon5 DVD's (http://www2.warnerbros.com/babylon5/store.html)
It's always good to talk to you RD, thumbs up for you!

[Fyron]

Da Path has made the old B5 Mod up to date. He never intended to expand it, he just made it up to date.

Too bad he never uploaded the Last Version... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Raging Deadstar]

RD, you will have to wait a little bit longer. Coz, all the movies are going to be released on DVD as well. Damn, an even longer wait. Sometimes I hate it that I live in Europe.

It's always good to talk to you RD, thumbs up for you!



Which is why myself and my friend buy New releases from amazon and such. Even if it costs more to ship them it's a case of a little extra cash to a 3 or 4 extra month wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And good to talk to you too Timstone, You haven't been in the cantina much so i never hear much from my favourite dutchman, i actually think i still have an e-mail from you about 1 and a half years ago entitled "balloon madman!"

But I put in my support for the B5 Mod when SEV comes out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (Lol, Planning way ahead guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif)

[Timstone]

Bumpski!
We're still here! LUrking and hiding in darkness untill SE V comes along...

[Raging Deadstar]

Timstone said:
Bumpski!
We're still here! LUrking and hiding in darkness untill SE V comes along...



Hisses Back Vile Shadows!!! Back to the rim!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Be careful Timstone, if Fyron was once a Vorlorn that makes you in trouble.

Better call your Associates Mr. Pampercity http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Timstone]

Hahaha... I'm not a Shadow, Shadows are such pussies. I'm a human. And we kick ***! I'll show those First Borns some things to wet their pants for. Here have some undiluted plasma up your ***! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Alneyan]

Yes, I am bumping this thread, and for something not really on topic either.

Has anyone else tried the fangame "Babylon 5:I've Found Her: Danger and Opportunity"? It has been released a few months ago, but I saw no reference to it in this thread. Basically, it is a space simulation, much meaner than, say, Freespace 2 (which serves as the platform for the other Babylon 5 space sim project) in terms of accessibility. So the standard procedure of "Click on setup.exe, use the manual to lit a fire and play the game straight way" might not be such a good idea this case.

If you are interested, be warned the game weights more than 200 mo, and is supposedly fairly short (I cannot tell, as I am still attempting to flight the Starfury, let alone survive one flight). So here you are (http://ifh.firstones.com/)! Hopefully, you will have more luck than I do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

Just so everyone knows, the ongoing pbw game is progressing nicely, though very slow development of planets is rather....annoying

[Raging Deadstar]

Alneyan said:
Yes, I am bumping this thread, and for something not really on topic either.

Has anyone else tried the fangame "Babylon 5:I've Found Her: Danger and Opportunity"? It has been released a few months ago, but I saw no reference to it in this thread. Basically, it is a space simulation, much meaner than, say, Freespace 2 (which serves as the platform for the other Babylon 5 space sim project) in terms of accessibility. So the standard procedure of "Click on setup.exe, use the manual to lit a fire and play the game straight way" might not be such a good idea this case.

If you are interested, be warned the game weights more than 200 mo, and is supposedly fairly short (I cannot tell, as I am still attempting to flight the Starfury, let alone survive one flight). So here you are (http://ifh.firstones.com/)! Hopefully, you will have more luck than I do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I downloaded it but it would crash everytime it ran. So i never got to play it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif But my friend loves this game and spends hours on it. I'm getting some more RAM for my birthday so i'll see when i install it if the game wouldn't run from a lack of memory. (My RAM ammount is pathetic, 126mb at time of writing)

[Alneyan]

That would be quite likely indeed (my computer could use some more "firepower" to run this game). Do you know if your graphic card works well with OpenGL? It seems to be another common problem with this game; do not ask me what cards support OpenGL or not though.

[Timstone]

Thanks for the link, but I believe someone else gave the link to the forum some time ago.
I DL'ed the game straightaway and tested it once (I don't have that much time). It started alright and flew great. I really liked it. The only thing I didn't like are the models. They're not complex enough. They could use some more detail. Fortunately I discovered that I DL'ed an early Version with not all the umpfh included in the Last Version. Because I have more than enough power behind my screen, I didn't have any problem with the highest settings.

Oh yeah, and the reason that this thread has somewhat fallen to the bottom of this highly esteemed forum, is because the main players in the making of the successor of the B5 Mod have decided to wait untill SE V comes along. Reasons are time, RL and the will to complete this HUGE mod. If someone else want to take a go at this mammoth task, he/she is welcome to try it.
Untill SE V is here we (the makers of the next B5 Mod) will remain largely silent. Sorry if this doesn't sound that professional, but it's the best we can do at the moment.

[gregebowman]

I was checking out a dvd website, when I saw the news that all 13 episodes of Crusaders will be coming out soon on dvd. Forgot the date, but I think it was before Christmas. Just thought you'd like to know.

[Timstone]

It will be christmas in America, but that will be next year here in Europe. I'm waiting for about 6 months now for the 5th season B5. After that all the movies from B5 will come out on DVD as well, so add another 8 months.
It really sucks that it takes so rediculus long for a DVD to come out here in Europe.
It really makes me very mad! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

oh, on amazon i read that season 5 will be released october 2004 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif too bad

[Timstone]

Well, it's a little more complicate dfor me. I have collected all the seasons in the Dutch edition. The American edition is different from the Dutch one. I really must have the whole serie in the same style.
Fortunately there is a bright side to this wating. Now I have enough money to buy all the Dutch Versions of Stargate in one go (that is untill season 7)! Woohoo!

[Timstone]

Bumpski!
I just wanted to post my 1200th post in this thread. Call me emotional, but this is my favorite thread.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

Congratulations.

[Timstone]

Thanks Narf!
You da mouse!

[Timstone]

Alrighty then! With the arrival of the 500th crew to make the next incarnation of the B5 Mod, I would like to open this thread again! WEEEEEE!!!!

*Croud goes wild!*

Someone give me a brewski!

Long live Babylon 5!

[Ragnarok-X]

Well simple as it is, i was a fan of babylon 5 since i first watched it. I was visiting these forums regulary about 4 years ago, eagerly awaiting a good release of the b5 mod, that was back when Val was here.
Now I followed the progress since years, and lately month. Latest achievements were the enhancments done by Timstone, Grumbler and Pathfinder (...).

Then we started a pbw game and i hate to say, but that game is barely any fun at all. Players are simply overwhelmed by the mod, there is too much to do or to consider. There is no development at all, even if there were, there are still to many things that need to be...repaired.

The mod will be totally revised. I have already adjusted most facilites cost/effect, as mentioned in my posted email. Population effect has been decreased/adjusted, but there is a lot of work still to do. One of the things that will be reworked IS the armor system. I have done a few testgames, and the game seems to have better "flow" now, everything seems to work just okay, at least from what i have seen.

I just took another more focused look at the files, and the armor system is just way to complicated.

There are about a DOUZEN tech areas.

Inert Armor Physics
Inert Armor Engineering
Inert Armor Manufacturing
Scattering Engineering
Scattering Manufacturing
Refractive Engineering
Refractive Manufacturing
Channeling Armor Engineering
Channeling Armor Manufactoring
Conductive Armor Engineering
Conductive Armor Manufactoring
Emmisive Armor Engineering
Emmisive Armor Manufactoring

This alone is already too much, but to make it worse, take a look at the armor component family. Offered are like a douzen different armors, all having "weird" names and classifications, names consisting of numbers, letters and additional thingies like primary, additional or whatever.
To make it even worse each armor needs SEVERAL tech requirements which can be far too EASILY be mixed up.
Imagine you have 3 tech areas and want to get a good armor...how are supposed to know WHAT exactly you need to research how far until you get that armor you want ?

There is definitly no point in going with the current system in the long way. No offense SJ, but if you want to do a realistic mod then the armor system is okay. Unfortunally i dont want to make the b5 mod even more realistic, i want to make if FUN.

The expansion/development pace will reworked as well, dont worry. I just dont really get the point in argueing with people who most probably not invested as much time as i did into the mod. I know SJ and Fyron are good members of the community, but i have a goal to achieve, and reworking the armor system is a part of it.

After all it is Timstone and i who will do the work / have done the work, and im positive things will be far superior once we are done.

Tell me Fyron, if you think the armor system is so great, why didnt you implented it into your adamant mod as well ? Maybe because its to difficult to get a good use by the players ?

I really like the "cheap" armor system of adamant mod. Research and you get components which offer more damage resistance. Thats fine. Have components with 10kT and 1kT size, everything will be alright. Just a small note, i dont get the point in using 0kT armor components at all. I could use pack my ship with those components until my shipyard need another turn to construct it. So lets say i have like 30 of those 0kT armors on my ship, but its the point ? Once out of combat i need to repair the vessel, how am i supposed to repair 30+ components ?

I may even consider adding my own armor system, which is acompnent with a size of 0 kT and a basic damage resistance of 50kT, and has a scale mount for every shipsize, so it will take lets say 250% damage on cruisers and 125% damage when scaleused on frigates, in addition to convential armor layeringg

The size of most tech areas is okay, its the way research points are accumulated which is FU. If research-facilites are build faster, everything will be alright, at least partly. Since population has less effect on production things are more faster than ever.





Timstone: Please send my the file/s you mentioned in your Last post in the other thread, about facilites.
You should have email adress, else pm me.

[Suicide Junkie]

You really have only 2 types of armor.

Basic "Inert" armor, and the advanced armors (plus the racial-based super armors.

The inert armor has 3 variants. Light, medium and heavy. Light is for cannon fodder ships. Heavy is for ships you want to Last and be easy to repair. Medium is in the middle.

Physics and manufacturing do NOT get you new components, they merely upgrade your existing ones to have another hitpoint or two each, or be a few bucks cheaper.

---

The advanced armors; each name change brings more damage reduction.
The other two techs simply provide cheaper/more hp as above.

-----

Look at it from the research POV, not the component POV.

You NEVER need a Heavy Armor IIIC.
You just need Heavy Armor. Period.

Once you have the base component, you're set. The manufacturing bonuses are completely optional, though handy if you're building a lot of that type of armor and/or have some research points to burn.

-----
-----

To summarize:
There are only 5 armor components, in two categories.
Inert armor
Structural supports: Admittedly not very useful. Bottom of the barrel tech.
Light Armor: Hard to repair, very leaky, lots of hitpoints.
Medium armor: Average
Heavy armor: Easier to repair, less leaky, less hitpoints.

advanced/passive armor
Pretty much one Category under different names for B5 flavour.
Each name change is +5 ability or so.

Primary: You can only install one.
Secondary: You can only install one, but it stacks with the primary.
Additional: You can add as many as you like, stacking with each other and the primary. (obsoletes the secondary component)

-----

I'd be happy to go through and set the tech descriptions to be more technical if you like.

I can also edit the names of the armors to simple roman numerals if the Roman-alpha scheme is confusing. That will mean that your Heavy armor VI may have different stats from the enemy's Heavy armor VI, but to both players it will be the 6th level researched (although likely in different tech areas).

[grumbler]

Good to see that there is still some interest in this mod. Ragnarok, a coupla easy things you can do to improve game development speed are:

1. Make Colony modules able to carry 50 pop rather than four or five. This will speed up development a lot. I did this by reducing pop mass back to 5.

2. Cap the Production "loss" based on population for large populations. While this sounds like a good idea (resources become more difficult to extract as population increases beyond 2 billion), it breaks the game because research and intel go down as population increases as well.

Personally, I like the armor system as a "research sink" to pour RPs not needed elsewhere as the other branches of the tech tree are maxed out. I would rather the resulting systems be more "First Ones-like" than they are, but that is because in my Version of the mod the possibility exists for the Younger Races to reach the Tech levels represented by First Ones tech (yeah, not realistic, but fun!)

[Ragnarok-X]

Hey Grumbler, nice to see you here. There is another thread, and both things you suggested have already been implented. Check the other thread (should be 3-4 threads above this one) if you like to !

[Fyron]

Save the SJ Armor from extinction!

[Timstone]

Hey Grumbler! How are you? Great to see you again. I hope you say something once in a while. Would be nice if you gave advice sometimes.

[Fyron]

Timstone said:
Would be nice if you gave advice sometimes.

He did! He advised to keep the SJ armor system. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Haha... like I said in the other thread, we can always put them back in again. But first the basics of the mod. The mod must have a working basis before we can even speak over replacing the SJ armor was a good thing or not.

[Fyron]

No reason that the perfectly working and not-complicated SJ armor can't be part of the basis...

[Timstone]

RagsX and I think there is sufficient reason and that should be enough.
If, like I said before, the decision proved a wrong one, we can always correct it. Nothing is lost if we change the armor research a bit, it's all reversable.

[Fyron]

Even when everybody else says it is a bad decision and there is no sufficient reason? SJ, Grumbler (more or less), and myself... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Timstone]

Haha, okay I give up. I'm pleased that RagsX is in charge right now and not me.

This is just the reason why i started to dislike my job (after 2 very, very cool years). I was always in charge and sometimes a new mechanic questioned my judgement and said I should do it differently. Only seldom was such a person right. Trying to be different always makes someone a suspect of deviating from the "right" course. When the job turned out well, I always found it greatly rewarding to give that person some fiendish remark. But after a while you get tired of it.

I back up RagsX and hope he right about it. If not, then we put back the old leaky armor stuff.

[Fyron]

I am not a new mechanic! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Haha... nope. I do see you as one, coz youve made quite á few mods.
Anyway, I'm not trying to anger you or SJ. RagsX and I are just going to try another aproach. We'll see if it works or not.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well, quite a lot of Posts lately, too bad all are about the same subject http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Will do some modding tonight/tomorrow. I guess we will stick with the armor system and focus on more important things, like early game development.

Ill write you an email, Timstone.

p.s. We are both in charge :p

[Suicide Junkie]

Would you like me to reword the descriptions to be more enlightening and less subjective? (both tech areas and some of the components)

Format would be as just the armor components in a separate text file for copy/replacing of the whole thing.

[Timstone]

RagsX:
I send you an e-mail! Woohoo!

[Ragnarok-X]

SJ:
We have thought about the armors and have come to the conclusion that we will focus on more important things for now. We will come back to the armors though, so if you have time to spare it would be a good idea to rewrite it, make it more transaparent, at least from my point of view. I guess Timstone would agree as well, lets wait for him though.


Timstone: I replied. Took me about 45 minutes to write the mail, so expect a lot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Timstone agrees about the armor thingie.

[Timstone]

SJ:
I know I've asked this before, but could you please explain again the sensor stuff you've done for the B5 mod?

[Suicide Junkie]

Timstone said:
SJ:
I know I've asked this before, but could you please explain again the sensor stuff you've done for the B5 mod?

The Basic/Advanced/Elite thing right?

Basic: 4% per tech level
Advanced: 2% per tech level
Elite: 1% per tech level.

All three components stack with each other.

When researching you will want to work on the basic scanner tech until the cost per level is at least twice that of the advanced tech area, in order to get the most ability per research point spent.
At mid to high tech, you also need to decide how much scanning power is worth it for your designs. Warships need every teeny edge they can scrounge, but transports are probably only worth using the basic component on (since they're rarely in combat and need the space for cargo).

Depending on the size and type of warship, you may want to go with just the first two types, and add an extra bit of armor or a gun instead of the elite scanner/ECM.

---

Basically, you get diminishing returns on your ECM/Scanner ability as you devote more hull space to electronic warfare.

You also need to research how the previous class of scanners work before you can research advanced ECM to use against them, and vice versa. Same goes with advanced vs elite Versions.

-----

Hmm...
What might be an interesting variation is if the ECM and sensors were mutually exclusive at each level...
IE: Pick basic ECM -OR- basic sensors, not both.
I may just use that idea in a future mod.

[Fyron]

Suicide Junkie said:
Hmm...
What might be an interesting variation is if the ECM and sensors were mutually exclusive at each level...
IE: Pick basic ECM -OR- basic sensors, not both.
I may just use that idea in a future mod.

How, exactly, would you accomplish this?

[Timstone]

So, if I understand correctly, the elite is less powerful than basic, but less expensive?

[Alneyan]

Wouldn't putting ECM and CS in the same family work, if you made it a "One per vehicle" thing?

I like that idea SJ; it would also make alternative ways of getting these bonuses more appealing (the facilities, or accuracy bonuses, or simply more defence).

[Suicide Junkie]

Timstone said:
So, if I understand correctly, the elite is less powerful than basic, but less expensive?

The elite is less powerful, but stacks.
16+8+4 = 28% is better than just 16% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
You pay for the extra power in research time, hull space and a maybe resources (I don't recall how the $/kt compares to the other components).

Fyron:
Same family, restriction of one-per-ship.
Put a buffer component between them so the "show only latest" still shows both types.

[Ragnarok-X]

The important thing about the different sensors is that they stack. Thats really most important to understand, else the entire system wouldnt make any sense at all.

[Timstone]

Ah yes, now I see.
You can take one of all three types, but not three of one type. Yes?

[Ragnarok-X]

The basic, advanced and elite components are EACH one family. So you pick ONE of each family, to maximize your offense/defense modifer. So you take 1 basic, 1 advanced and 1 elite component. They stack. You can use 3 basic components, too, but since they are one family you will only get ONE bonus )

Start the mod with maximum tech and design a ship, you will see how modifers change once you pack the components on the ship http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Aha, it's now crystalclear to me. Thanks for this explanation.

[Suicide Junkie]

Timstone said:
Aha, it's now crystalclear to me. Thanks for this explanation.

The B5 mod Version lets you take as many as you want, though.
You can have all three scanners AND all three ECMs. Even backups to guard against the leaky armor effects.

The 1-basic, 1-advanced, 1-elite thing was only a wacky idea for other mods.
(Unless you really like it and want me to whip it up for B5)

[Atrocities]

Huh? I am lost.

[Timstone]

SJ:
Hmm... sounds cool.
Would you like to "whip up" the scanners and ECM's for the B5 mod?

[Ragnarok-X]

Of course you add more than one of each Version, but it wont help you in combat modifers. It just gives you more safety since on component can be destroyed and still have the modifer. It doesnt make sense though, since those components are quite expensive. If you want to design a good ship, add one each of basic and advanced sensors / ecm. Dont try the elite Versions, they offer to few benefit while costing too much. Of course if you have time and ressources to spare, add them, too.

Just on a note, today i finished with the basic facilites. I will post the datafiles later, dont expect to much, its only one level of each facility and they dont have tech prerequisites yet.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ragnarok-X said:
Of course you add more than one of each Version, but it wont help you in combat modifers. It just gives you more safety since one component can be destroyed and still have the modifer. It doesnt make sense though, since those components are quite expensive. If you want to design a good ship, add one each of basic and advanced sensors / ecm. Dont try the elite Versions, they offer to few benefit while costing too much. Of course if you have time and ressources to spare, add them, too.

Doubling the basic ECM prevents your ship from suffering a critical hit early on, and losing most of its defense.

Whether an Elite Version is worth while depends a lot on the size of the ship and the net to-hit against other players.
Going from 50% to-hit to 55% is like having 10% more guns.
Going from 10% to 15% is a huge gain.
Going from 90% to 95% is not worth it.

[Ragnarok-X]

As i posted, you can add more components from the same family, but the only advantage you get is that you still have the bonus when one component gets destroyed, which is not very likely due to its size compared to the total ship size, usually 300kT+. And yes, i know that 15% to hit compared to 10% to hit is a 50% increase, but it usually wont happen. 50% to 55% is more likly, and given the research and ressource expenses needed to aquire/construct elite sensors or ecm i would prefer making more ships to simply outgun the enemy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Of course its always the question how one is playing. Some want a few state-of-the-art ships, other go with masses of seeker-throwers, where hit% doesnt matter at all since you try to attack out of enemy range.

[Suicide Junkie]

The point is, the lower the natural to-hit is, the more effective the elite components become.

Also consider how valuable 4-8% worth of aggressiveness or defensiveness is worth to you during race setup. For just 10 kt or so per ship and a bunch of initial research investment, you get some hundred racial points worth of effect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Atrocities]

Can any one post a comprehensive list of what is done, needs to be done, and what should be done for this mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[TNZ]

Just an idea I had on how the armour system in the B5 mod could be made to work.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/download.php?Number=320351

[Fyron]

That doesn't make the armor work, it ruins it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Timstone]

AT:
Why would you like to have a list of what needs to be done? Just for your entertainment...? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Attached are updated armor techarea descriptions.

A sledgehammer of knowledge.

[Ragnarok-X]

Downloading them ríght, will take a look at them in just a few minutes.

[Ragnarok-X]

ok, took a look. It sounds better now, but i still dont know if we are able to keep all amors. Its mainly because we will add new weapons and most probably balance the rest. Most weapons wont have use against high-tech armor due to the large shield-from-damage abiliy. We will come back to armors later.

As promised, attached is the faciliy file i created, only featuering one level from each building. The actual values for ressource and research generation are still pending, but it looks fine this way. Homeworld produce about 12k ressources each, 12k research and construct with about 4000 of each ressource on average sized (2000 million) worlds.

Put in into a facility file if you want to take a look at it.
The way it is setup is due to homeworlds. Currently homeworlds have 1 spaceport, 1 resupply depot and the rest are homeworld complexes, called Megalopolis. Names are pending, too. If you have suggestion, come with it.





Name := Distribution Centre I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Hub
Facility Family := 2
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 225
Cost Minerals := 6000
Cost Organics := 1500
Cost Radioactives := 3000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Spaceport
Ability 1 Descr := Distributes ressources and makes them available for the empire.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 2 Descr := Provides storage space, increases ressource storage by 10000 each.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 10000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 10000
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 10000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 250 shield points.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 250
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0

Name := Fuel Dock I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Hub
Facility Family := 3
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 201
Cost Minerals := 6000
Cost Organics := 1500
Cost Radioactives := 3000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Supply Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Allows vessels to get resupplied when docking at the planet.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 2 Descr := Provides storage space, increases ressource storage by 5000 each.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 5000
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 200 shield points.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 200
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0

Name := Espionage Camp I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Intelligence
Facility Family := 51
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 230
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 1 Descr := Agents perform training worth 500 intelligence points per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 500
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 75 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 75
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Name := Medical Center I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 701
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 226
Cost Minerals := 7500
Cost Organics := 3500
Cost Radioactives := 2500
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Modify Reproduction - System
Ability 1 Descr := Keeps population more healthy, therefor increasing the systemwide reproduction rate by 2%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 2
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 125 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 125
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Name := Shield Generator I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 703
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 234
Cost Minerals := 5750
Cost Organics := 2250
Cost Radioactives := 4500
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 1 Descr := Able to protect the planet through a forcefield, severaly weakening weapons, simulated by adding 750 shieldpoints.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 750
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 75 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 75
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Name := Entertainment Complex I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Population Support
Facility Family := 703
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 212
Cost Minerals := 6000
Cost Organics := 2500
Cost Radioactives := 2500
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 2
Ability 1 Type := Planet - Change Population Happiness
Ability 1 Descr := Population can relax and enjoy here, increases happiness by 3% per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 3
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 75 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 75
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Name := Research Laboratory I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Research
Facility Family := 2001
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 206
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 1 Descr := Scientists perform experiments worth 500 research points per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 500
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 2 Descr := Security grants 50 intelliegence point per cycle.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 3 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 50 shield points.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Mining Outpost I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2051
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 202
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 1 Descr := Mines 500 units of metal, ore and equivalent ressources per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 500
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 2 Descr := Increases empire storage for hard ressources by 1000 units.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 3 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 50 shield points.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Farming Station I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2052
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 203
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 1 Descr := Harvests 500 units of food, biomatter and equivalent ressources per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 500
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 2 Descr := Increases empire storage for soft ressources by 1000 units.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 3 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 50 shield points.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Power Plant I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Resource Extraction
Facility Family := 2053
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 227
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 500
Cost Radioactives := 1000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 1 Descr := Creates 500 units of energy, radioactives and equivalent ressources per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 500
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 2 Descr := Increases empire storage for power ressources by 1000 units.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 3 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 50 shield points.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0

Name := Construction Yard I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Ship Construction
Facility Family := 2101
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 196
Cost Minerals := 12000
Cost Organics := 4000
Cost Radioactives := 12000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Space Yard
Ability 1 Descr := Allows space-based construction of ships and bases. Constructs with 2500 units per ressource.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1
Ability 1 Val 2 := 2500
Ability 2 Type := Space Yard
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 2
Ability 2 Val 2 := 2500
Ability 3 Type := Space Yard
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 3
Ability 3 Val 2 := 2500
Ability 4 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 4 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 350 shield points.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 350
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0

Name := Cargo Warehouse I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Storage
Facility Family := 2151
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 216
Cost Minerals := 9000
Cost Organics := 2440
Cost Radioactives := 1965
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Cargo Storage
Ability 1 Descr := Can store cargo worth 1000 kT.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Storage - Mineral
Ability 2 Descr := Provides storage space, increases ressource storage by 7500 each.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 7500
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Storage - Organics
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 7500
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Resource Storage - Radioactives
Ability 4 Descr :=
Ability 4 Val 1 := 7500
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 25 shield points.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 25
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0

Name := Megalopolis I
Description := 0
Facility Group := Hub
Facility Family := 1
Roman Numeral := 1
Restrictions := None
Pic Num := 219
Cost Minerals := 6000
Cost Organics := 1500
Cost Radioactives := 3000
Number of Tech Req := 0
Number of Abilities := 9
Ability 1 Type := Resource Generation - Minerals
Ability 1 Descr := Earns 500 units of each ressource per cycle.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 501
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Resource Generation - Organics
Ability 2 Descr :=
Ability 2 Val 1 := 501
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Resource Generation - Radioactives
Ability 3 Descr :=
Ability 3 Val 1 := 501
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Point Generation - Research
Ability 4 Descr := Earns 500 point of research and 100 points of intelligence per cycle.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 501
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Point Generation - Intelligence
Ability 5 Descr :=
Ability 5 Val 1 := 100
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Planet - Shield Generation
Ability 6 Descr := Majorly ncreases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 250 shield points.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 250
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Ability 7 Type := Space Yard
Ability 7 Descr := Increases construction rate by 250 ressources each and allows production of spaceborn units.
Ability 7 Val 1 := 1
Ability 7 Val 2 := 150
Ability 8 Type := Space Yard
Ability 8 Descr :=
Ability 8 Val 1 := 2
Ability 8 Val 2 := 150
Ability 9 Type := Space Yard
Ability 9 Descr :=
Ability 9 Val 1 := 3
Ability 9 Val 2 := 150

[Suicide Junkie]

You should probably attach large amounts of text like that instead of posting it all.

Large amounts of SFD? Wha?
The inert armors have none. They cover early and midgame tech.

Even the most advanced armor (emissive)provides:
10kt -&gt; 25 SFD + 25 emissive
45kt -&gt; 30 SFD + 30 emissive
80kt -&gt; 35 SFD + 35 emissive
115kt -&gt; 40 SFD + 40 emissive

End game weapons do plenty more than 50 damage per hit, and surely more than 100.
- Plus, any weapons with "skips armor" damage type get to ignore the SFD/Emissive ability of the advanced armor.
- Also, any weapons with "skips shields" damage type get to ignore half of the SFD/Emissive ability.

PS:
Should I change the ability tags on these armors from the do-nothing regular abilities to real AI Tags?
If so, which number ranges are available?

[Fyron]

In the future, you might want to attach such large blocks of text as text files, rather than put it all in the post.

You have "resource" misspelled with an extra 's'.

The Megalopolis seems a little cheap to build.

[Ragnarok-X]

Fyron :

Well the costs are pending, too. Take a look at the cargo warehouse, which costs 9k minerals http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Of course Megalopolis will be unbuildable, its the homeworld city facility. Most probably it will cost like a million organics, to make scrapping them for ressources not an option.

SJ: Once again the armors: I dont want early game weapons to become useless http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I still want tiny and medium weapons to do a big of damage, instead of actually doing nothing. Anyways, lets stop with amors, they are not of concern right now, at least not until the combat system is up.

About AI tags: Since no work on AI has been done yet, all of them are available. I think about 10 tags need to be free for later use, weiter it be ship designing or planet queues (facilites).

[Fyron]

Ragnarok-X said:
About AI tags: Since no work on AI has been done yet, all of them are available. I think about 10 tags need to be free for later use, weiter it be ship designing or planet queues (facilites).

You can reuse the tags for components and facilities without issue. All 20 are available for components, and all 20 are available for facilities.


SJ: Once again the armors: I dont want early game weapons to become useless I still want tiny and medium weapons to do a big of damage, instead of actually doing nothing. Anyways, lets stop with amors, they are not of concern right now, at least not until the combat system is up.

If all you have is the beginning game weapon and your enemy has dumped tens of millions or more research into armors (and other areas), you don't have any chance of scratching them anyways, irregardless of what their armor looks like. Early game weapons should not be balanced against late game armors, otherwise there is no point in researching those defensive technologies. It is extremely counter productive to try to balance early game tech with late game tech of any sort.

[Ragnarok-X]

Then again i meant "a bit of damage" instead of "a big of damage".

Anyways, ill post more tomorrow. see ya.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ragnarok-X said:
Then again i meant "a bit of damage" instead of "a big of damage".

Anyways, ill post more tomorrow. see ya.

We are talking small weapons vs proto-shadows armor.
They SHOULD do little to no damage against a ship with well over a hundred kt devoted to that type of armor.

Also, don't forget that a ship can't just go all-out advanced armors...
You need a significant number of inert armors as well, to provide some bulk and prevent the advanced armor from degrading too quickly.

If you pull out some half decent capital ship lasers, you'll do more than enough damage to start hurting even heavy advanced armors.

You may note also that if the enemy is spending 200 or 300 kt of space on armor, its going to be a very large ship, and its not going to have much in the way of weaponry or speed.
Edit your strategies to avoid shooting the decoys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

Ragnarok-X said:
About AI tags: Since no work on AI has been done yet, all of them are available. I think about 10 tags need to be free for later use, weiter it be ship designing or planet queues (facilites).


Well, Last I checked there were quite a few tags in use.

I'll go with the 90's to avoid conflicts, and you can do a quick global search-replace to change them to whatever tag ID# you like.

90 = Light armor
91 = Midrange armor
92 = Heavy armor

For the advanced armors, its easier to just call for one component worth of SFD.
I doubt the AIs would be able to use the advanced armor addons effectively, and they may as well save the research points.

[Fyron]

There are only 20 AI Tags. You can not use arbitrary numbers, only the 20 that were hard-coded.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ok then.

Search-replace them down to 18-20.

If you are short on tags, toss one of the tags by changing it to star-unstable. Either midrange or heavy armor, depending on what you want the AI to use in its designs more.

[ironman]

I play B5 mod and I think it's great, here's my Facility.txt

ok how do I add it?????

[ironman]

I"m still learning this

But when ya do the armor I think the older races should
have double hitpoints

[Suicide Junkie]

Hitpoints are really just for the low end techs.
The old races will want abilities!

Last I checked there was organic vs emissive for vorlon and shadows, plus some armor-ability for one race, and some 999% ECM armor for another.

[Ragnarok-X]

Ironman, no offense, but what was the point in posting "your" facility.txt.
I already post the one which will most probably make it, unless Timstone disagrees. In addition "your" file was just a slightly changed Version compared to the current one.

[ironman]

ya i know but i'm still a newbe modder not a great modder like
others out there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

just like playing not modding

but I'm trying to do my own mod (it"s simple) based on Traveller (the old d6 ver.)

[Suicide Junkie]

Starting simple is the best way to do it most of the time. Seeing progress is encouraging, and you get to play too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Timstone]

RagsX:
You posted a very nice set of facilities. Please go ahead with the rest.
I'm busy with the techarea.txt, but I forgot to bring my usb stick with me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
Now I can't work on it during worktime http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif
Ah well, tomorrow I have the whole day to perfect it and add a few better descriptions.
I also will chose the first races to do the tech (weapons and components) for. This will help to decrease the initial workload for us. Tomorrow I'll send you a mail again.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well, just a question. Yesterday i emailed you two times, i hope you received those emails ? Because your post seems like you didnt received them. Please tell me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

Ok, attached is the most up-to-date facility.txt It now features almost "final" costs, and a LOT more facilites. Take a look at it if you like. Opinions are welcome !

[Fyron]

I have attached a file with numerous spelling and grammatical errors fixed.

You need to pick either the American spelling of "center" or the British spelling of "centre" for the sake of consistency. Distribution Centre and Medical Center should use the same spelling of the word.

Why do intelligence facilities (especially the "bonus" ones) provide so many intelligence points?

"Agents perform training worth 700 intelligence points per cycle."
Should training really be what is providing the intelligence points?

Distribution Centre (annoying British spelling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) ability tag might be better off saying something like this:
"Distributes resources and makes them available for use throughout the empire."
instead of:
"Distributes resources and makes them available for the empire."

Fuel Dock ability tag might be better as:
"Resupplies all vessels that dock at the planet."
instead of:
"Allows vessels to get resupplied when docking at the planet."

The reference to storing "hard," "soft" and "power" resources in the storage abilities of the resource producing facilities might be confusing.

What is "Restricted Radiationing" supposed to be? It seems that if you reduce the radioactives level, value should decrease.

Descriptions such as these in various facilities are redundant:
"Provides storage space, increases resource storage by 17500 each."
Could possibly be simplified to:
"Increases resource storage by 17500 per resource."

You might want to place the Planetary Outpost at the end of the list for that family. This will cause it to be displayed when "only latest" is enabled (or is it "hide obselete?"), and it will still upgrade properly to the Planetary Settlements and such. Take a gander at the ordering of Space Yard Expansions and the Projects in the latest Adamant files. You should also make a note that it should be built after the Space Yard, since it will not "Increase construction rate with 150 units," it will reduce construction rate to that value if there is no Space Yard on the colony.

Miscellaneous changes I made:

The Medical Center I and II had the Robotoid Factories inbetween them.

Medical Center ability description is awkward. I suggest:
"Improved health of the general population increases the system-wide reproduction rate by 7%."

Shield Generator facilities had discrepencies in the ability tags and ability values. I updated the descriptions to reflect the value of the abilities.

Shield Generator facilities had odd cloaking abilities, which I removed:
Ability 2 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 75 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Robotoid Factory ability description had "in the system" added to it.

"Deep Mining Thriller" is now "Deep Mining Driller."

"each 10 cycles" in various descriptions replaced with "every 10 cycles."

Deep Mining Driller, Harvesting Robotics and Thermonuclear Reactors descriptions did not end with a period.

Cargo Warehouse III ability description changed from 17500 to the correct 22500.

"Increases construction rate with 375 units" was replaced with "Increases construction rate by 375 units."

Megalopolis construction abilities were incorrect. Its description was updated to be in line with the Settlements (ie: "units of each resource" instead of "resources each").

Also for Megalopolis, "Allows the storage 5000 resources each." fixed to be "Allows the storage 5000 resources of each type."

[Suicide Junkie]

Also for Megalopolis, "Allows the storage 5000 resources each." fixed to be "Allows the storage 5000 resources of each type."

Shouldn't that be "Allows the storage of 5000 resources of each type"?

[Fyron]

Probably.

[Ragnarok-X]

Thanks a bunch, will look at the modifed file in a few minutes.

[Ragnarok-X]

Imperator Fyron said:
I have attached a file with numerous spelling and grammatical errors fixed.

You need to pick either the American spelling of "center" or the British spelling of "centre" for the sake of consistency. Distribution Centre and Medical Center should use the same spelling of the word.

Why do intelligence facilities (especially the "bonus" ones) provide so many intelligence points?

"Agents perform training worth 700 intelligence points per cycle."
Should training really be what is providing the intelligence points?

Distribution Centre (annoying British spelling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) ability tag might be better off saying something like this:
"Distributes resources and makes them available for use throughout the empire."
instead of:
"Distributes resources and makes them available for the empire."

Fuel Dock ability tag might be better as:
"Resupplies all vessels that dock at the planet."
instead of:
"Allows vessels to get resupplied when docking at the planet."

The reference to storing "hard," "soft" and "power" resources in the storage abilities of the resource producing facilities might be confusing.

What is "Restricted Radiationing" supposed to be? It seems that if you reduce the radioactives level, value should decrease.

Descriptions such as these in various facilities are redundant:
"Provides storage space, increases resource storage by 17500 each."
Could possibly be simplified to:
"Increases resource storage by 17500 per resource."

You might want to place the Planetary Outpost at the end of the list for that family. This will cause it to be displayed when "only latest" is enabled (or is it "hide obselete?"), and it will still upgrade properly to the Planetary Settlements and such. Take a gander at the ordering of Space Yard Expansions and the Projects in the latest Adamant files. You should also make a note that it should be built after the Space Yard, since it will not "Increase construction rate with 150 units," it will reduce construction rate to that value if there is no Space Yard on the colony.

Miscellaneous changes I made:

The Medical Center I and II had the Robotoid Factories inbetween them.

Medical Center ability description is awkward. I suggest:
"Improved health of the general population increases the system-wide reproduction rate by 7%."

Shield Generator facilities had discrepencies in the ability tags and ability values. I updated the descriptions to reflect the value of the abilities.

Shield Generator facilities had odd cloaking abilities, which I removed:
Ability 2 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 2 Descr := Increases a planets damage resistance, simulated by adding 75 shield points.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 0
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0

Robotoid Factory ability description had "in the system" added to it.

"Deep Mining Thriller" is now "Deep Mining Driller."

"each 10 cycles" in various descriptions replaced with "every 10 cycles."

Deep Mining Driller, Harvesting Robotics and Thermonuclear Reactors descriptions did not end with a period.

Cargo Warehouse III ability description changed from 17500 to the correct 22500.

"Increases construction rate with 375 units" was replaced with "Increases construction rate by 375 units."

Megalopolis construction abilities were incorrect. Its description was updated to be in line with the Settlements (ie: "units of each resource" instead of "resources each").

Also for Megalopolis, "Allows the storage 5000 resources each." fixed to be "Allows the storage 5000 resources of each type."






Firstly, thanks a bunch for your help. Most of the point you are mentioned are right are correct / will be corrected, especially the grammar and stuff like that.
About your intelligence point question. Well i dont really care about intel, but in all the games/mods i played, weither it be off or Online intel was simply never used. I think by majorly increasing the intel-generation players might actually make one or two planets into intel-centers. Thats the plan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The reference to hard, soft and power ressources will be corrected as well.

About "Restricted Radiationing". Well actually thats one the ideas i really liked. I just didnt know how to proberly explain it.
With it i meant that certain areas (such as area surrounding a powerplant) are artifcially radiated to create a better power output. That what i meant. I was going to explain that in the facility descriptions, of which all are yet to do. If you a suggestion, tell me.


About the Robotoid Factory and the "in the system": Actually it IS in the system, as each planet gets in the increase/decrease in population. So i dont understand it should be removed. Please tell me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, thanks for your post, it really helped me alot. Most of the things you suggested will be implented/changed that way.

[Fyron]

Ragnarok-X said:
About your intelligence point question. Well i dont really care about intel, but in all the games/mods i played, weither it be off or Online intel was simply never used. I think by majorly increasing the intel-generation players might actually make one or two planets into intel-centers. Thats the plan

I've seen intelligence put to deadly use many times with stock game values of production. A bit overpowering in such cases though, due to the inability to defend against it without scrapping half of your empire and building intelligence facilities. In other cases, everybody had too much counter intelligence, and no intelligence projects could be used. More points per facility won't really balance it out or anything... Perhaps some of the more insane projects should be toned down? I don't recall exactly what the B5 Mod has in it, but projects such as Crew Insurrection and Puppet Political Parties are way to powerful, and should probably be removed entirely. Also, the project that damages planetary cargo is currently useless, since it does points of damage to the cargo. The stock value of 1 means only 1 point of damage is done, so no cargo is ever lost.


Ragnarok-X said:
About "Restricted Radiationing". Well actually thats one the ideas i really liked. I just didnt know how to proberly explain it.
With it i meant that certain areas (such as area surrounding a powerplant) are artifcially radiated to create a better power output. That what i meant. I was going to explain that in the facility descriptions, of which all are yet to do. If you a suggestion, tell me.

Hmm... I think it needs a better sounding name, but I can't think of one at present.


Ragnarok-X said:
About the Robotoid Factory and the "in the system": Actually it IS in the system, as each planet gets in the increase/decrease in population. So i dont understand it should be removed. Please tell me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No, I meant, the ability description did not previously mention that it affected every planet in the system, which it needs to do.

[Ragnarok-X]

Hey Fyron,

i have updated the facilites once again. Added descriptions, changed intel at least a bit (will think about it later) and stuff alike.

If you have spare time, please take a look at it, especially grammar and stuff alike of the descriptions. In addition please take a look at my thread "out of bounce" error. Maybe you can help ?
ty a lot.


Edit: Attached the new file. Sorry, simple forgot it.

[Fyron]

Did you want to attach the new file to a post?


Ragnarok-X said:
In addition please take a look at my thread "out of bounce" error. Maybe you can help ?
ty a lot.

I had no idea what would be causing such a problem, sorry.

[Suicide Junkie]

For intel, why not use the intel sabotage instead of defense?

IE:
- Set project costs proportional to usefulness
- Remove counter intel
- Make intel sabotage relatively cheap

So the key is to actively disrupt your opponent's projects before they complete. On defense, you spam the enemy with sabotage attempts, hoping to prevent the launch of their projects against you. On offense, run a whole bunch of decoy projects to (hopefully) absorb the sabotages while you prepare your real one.

[grumbler]

Do I understand correctly and Ragnorok-X is starting the mod agains from scratch? New facilities means new AI files, etc.

We (Timstone and I) had a complete, stable, B5 mod that was up-to-date on everything except weapons (and even then we had an idea for what space/weight the weapons for the various ship sizes should be). The AI files (modified Pathfinder) worked and produced effective ships and colonies. The existing weapons worked but were not optimized.

I don't undertsnad why this entire effort is being duplicated. Tim, did you lose the files I sent (or did I not send them all)? Frakly, I think if someone is starting over again it is because they don't know how much effort is required to make a mod work. I could never have done it all, nor Path, nor Val, nor Tim.

Having said that, I certainly don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, and since I already have and play a stable effective mod (that has working Ancient ruins, proportional QNP for both ships and fighters, leaky armor, and the stackable sensor/ECM mod) I don't lose anything by others starting again from scratch.

Most of my files I have shared only with Tim, because he was heading up the mod when I was working on it. However, if someone has a place to "hang" all the data, I would be happy to share what I have more widely.

[Ragnarok-X]

grumbler said:
Do I understand correctly and Ragnorok-X is starting the mod agains from scratch? New facilities means new AI files, etc.

We (Timstone and I) had a complete, stable, B5 mod that was up-to-date on everything except weapons (and even then we had an idea for what space/weight the weapons for the various ship sizes should be). The AI files (modified Pathfinder) worked and produced effective ships and colonies. The existing weapons worked but were not optimized.

I don't undertsnad why this entire effort is being duplicated. Tim, did you lose the files I sent (or did I not send them all)? Frakly, I think if someone is starting over again it is because they don't know how much effort is required to make a mod work. I could never have done it all, nor Path, nor Val, nor Tim.

Having said that, I certainly don't want to dampen anyone's enthusiasm, and since I already have and play a stable effective mod (that has working Ancient ruins, proportional QNP for both ships and fighters, leaky armor, and the stackable sensor/ECM mod) I don't lose anything by others starting again from scratch.

Most of my files I have shared only with Tim, because he was heading up the mod when I was working on it. However, if someone has a place to "hang" all the data, I would be happy to share what I have more widely.




grumbler, firstly, no offense.
I dont really know IF you actually played the revised Version of the mod you, timstone and pathfinder created.
If you did, then you should have noticed that it wasnt playable at all. Alright, you could start a game without errors showing up, but still, there was nothing to do except colonizing planets (no reason to do it though) and researching, using your homeworlds research output. Even IF you were able to construct facilities on colonies, they didnt offered any benefit at all, except 500 research points modified by -80%.
So that was the reason i started the mod again. I got in contact with Timstone and we made plan, Timstone is out now, but i hope he will still continue/ready the weapons, at least for major races.
Facilities and the entire colonizing since was not useful, so it simply had to be redone. Colonizing gave you nothing, except waiting and having to protect more. Colonies werent even able to defend themselves, it took 2 turns to construct ONE average satelite, not talking WPs here.

Tweaking AI construction facility files is not hard at all, so that wont be a problem. Basicly you can just keep existing ones, or tweak them slightly.
Tweaking AI designconstruction is not quite as hard as some may believe, i have spent countless hours creating new AIs from SCRATCH for my personal mod.

By now i have completed the facility.txt, at least the basics. I will include racial specific facilites, too, once i have time to spare for that.

I have revised the propulsion system as well, now research progress for the different engine types is more useful, as is the entire reactor thingy. I revised the shiptypes engines per move setting as well and setup a basic NARN ai to play against, it construct scouts and colonyships just fine. Shipset is now about 3 for average colonizers, 4 for combat ships and 5 for scouts, using early game propulsion.
This fits perfectly imho.

Leaky armor and the stackable sensors/ecm system will most probably stay, so no reason to cry about that. About the ancient ruines, they are not hard to setup as well, i plan on including more ancient techs, of which more are useful than the current ones (i.e. Great Machine WP is a nice idea, but was implented...not so well, imho).
The weapons you mentioned are quite nice, but simply not useful at all. Most racial weapons are just not worth researching, as an example, why should a Vree player research Vree Antimatter weapons when he could just stay with the Standart IonBolt until the end ? It is cheaper, more powerful, costs less ressources and research and he can pack even more of those. This majorly sticks. Babylon5 lives of this galaxy and atmosphere, which will be kept with this final revision of the mod.

To sum it up, im sick of the Last years of B5 mod development. 4 Years ago i was regulary lurking the Boards, looking for playable gold Version of b5 mod. I found none. Some month ago i was so happy when i noticed you and several others pumping breath into the mod, but then again i was pretty disappointed once i downloaded the mod. I didnt enjoyed it all, and i actually KNOW many others, weiter be registered or guests, will agree with me.
The B5 will be completed within the next few month, maybe sooner, depending on the amount of time i have and on how many people help me(...).

About your point that i dont know how much time and effort it costs to develope a proper mod. In fact i DO know how much is involved. I spent countless hours playing SE 4, and i spent even MORE hours modding. First adding things to stock game, then modifying existing mods for my needs, finally i created my own mod. You can find a topic about my mod somewhere in this board, search for "Impact mod" or something alike. I definitly now what im up to, and im not going to stop at half the way, THIS time the Babylon 5 will be completed, and it will offer a pretty good time to anyone who gives the mod a chance and plays it.

If you want to help, you are welcome, there is much to do, weither i do it alone, or people help me, the mods development will not be on halt for another 2 years.

Please, dont feel offended. If you do, it was most probably my bad grammar or way to "speak" english. I respect the time you and others put in the mod.

[solops]

Is there a homepage for this "new" Version of the mod?

[Fyron]

grumbler said:
Most of my files I have shared only with Tim, because he was heading up the mod when I was working on it. However, if someone has a place to "hang" all the data, I would be happy to share what I have more widely.

If you can email them to me (I can send you an invitation to get a Gmail account, which has huge file size limits), please do so and I can host them on SpaceEmpires.net. Otherwise, you could possibly create a torrent file of them and upload that to my tracker at http://kazharii.no-ip.com:6969/ and get them to me that way.

Ragnarok-X, since you are doing a more or less complete rewrite of the mod, you should consider using a different name for it, much like the "Atrocities' Star Trek Mod" and the "Star Trek Mod."

[Ragnarok-X]

solops: There is no website. I have not thought about that, but now that you mention it, it is most neccessary to get one. I will ask a few friends of mine if they can spare a bit of webspace, then i need someone to build a least a basic website, i now a bit of html, but not enough to make a homepage.


Fyron: A new name would be fine by me. For now im waiting for grumbers response though, im interested in the rewritten facility file he mentions. Why didnt they published all of the files ? Just like i said above, the mod needs to be finally completed, an on-hold status is not good.

[Fyron]

Might want to brainstorm cool names for it, rather than just something boring like "Ragnarok-X's Babylon 5 Mod."

[Urendi Maleldil]

How about "The Babylon 5X mod"

[Aiken]

First finish the mod.
Then balance and playtest it.
Find and fix bugs.
And after that think out a resonant name for a mod.
Before that any codename will serve all your needs.

ps: "Babylon 5: Renascence". Sounds, eh?

[Timstone]

Grumbler:
Good to hear from you again. Glad you're still with us.
I've never got anyf files from you, but I have absolutely no grudge about that. During the time we worked on it, my enthusiasm slowly died away and I simply didn't do anything anymore (what a GF can do for you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif). So I blame myself for the fact that there wasn't a working Version of our mod released.

Now Rags-X asked for helpers with the next Version of the B5 mod, I volunteered as first. I wanted to start right away, but unfortunately I didn't remember the huge amount of work a mod requires. So my part quickly became less and less in this Version. Rags-X has done all the work sofar, I only handed him files of the B5 Mod Grumbler and I worked on.
Now my part is limited to the weapons. I have a handy dandy Excel sheet exclusively for the weapons. It's not very user-friendly, but I think I'll be the only one to use it. I use it in conjunction with the Techgridder.
I'm going to make at least a list of weapos and it's most important data available for Rags-X.
I think my greatest contribution is the fact that I have almost all tyhe B5 Wars books, in those books you can find a wealth of information on the various weapons.


Sorry for any grudges I might have caused. If I have made anyone angry or if I hurt someone with my actions (or lack of them), I'll apologize to him/her personally.


Edit:
If I might suggest a name for this Version of the B5 Mod:
Babylon 5 Mod: Renaissance.

[Aiken]

Timstone said:
Babylon 5 Mod: Renaissance.



aiken said:
ps: "Babylon 5: Renascence". Sounds, eh?



according to my dictionary these are synonyms http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[grumbler]

Ragnarok, I wasn't offended and meant no offense, I was just astonished that you would even consider starting this over from scratch, particularly given the size and complexity of the mod.

I have not, to be sure, played the Last Version that Pathfinder posted (which I am pretty sure was incomplete in any case), and I don't blame anyone for being frustrated with the existing status of the mod. I was working on this with Tim for about six months, and between us we talked about a number of things and ended up with a pretty complete game with the exception of the weapons files.

Now, the Version we ended up with has not been playtested by anyone save us (or maybe even me) so there are sure to be some elements that need to be tweaked (in particular the "findable" Ancients technology needs to be balanced both between the various techs and netween the cost to find and the effect of finding them) but the mod is playable and even kind of fun (until about turn 200, when the AI runs out of good weapons for its ships).

Races need to be balanced as well, of course, but that is something carried over from Val's mod. AI_D_C is the same for all races at the moment, with component families varied by race to create some variety. Facilities need to be added/modded to give more racial flavor as well.

There are no First Ones in the mod as it stands.

I will package up the thing as it stands this weekend and send it to IF. It uses all the existing graphics so is almost entirely data files and hence not so big.

Again, my point was that I was surprised that you and Tim would be talking about starting over, given that I know Tim is aware of how difficult this would be.

[grumbler]

Tim,

Looking back over our email exchanges I can see that you did not have as much as I remembered - mostly facilties, engine components, AI_D_C and AI_C_F files, and the "weapons mounts." Maybe I did some work after we stopped making progress and just thought you were part of it.

In any case, I will see if I cannot get what exists on my drive posted via IF so everyone can start poking holes in it and Ragnarok can steal what he wants. I have zero "pride of authorship" and am really only concerned to save anyone from having to re-invent the wheel.

Once IF has hung the files out there where people can pick them and open them up I will start a series of Posts explaining what is there and why (facilities, for instance, have changed a lot from the Val Version).

The Ragnarok can decide what he wants to keep, what he wants to mod, and what he wants to discard. I think his will probably be the only Version of this mod released for this game, so I am not sure how necessary it is to have a different name. I do not have a complete mod because I do not have (and have no interest in buying) the B5 game manuals that everyone agreed would be the basis for the weapons, so there is no competing mod to the one Ragnarok wants to create.

[Timstone]

Grumbler:
Thanks for your kind words. And please send anything usefull to RagsX, he's da great kahuna of this next Version.
You're right about the playtesting. Nobody but you ever playtested our Version of the mod. Haha, pretty silly that one of the authors never got to see the mod. Ah well, no hard feelings at all.
Thanks for the good words and the help you're offering. Thumbs up for you!
/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Netherlands.gif

If we had some sort of rating system on this board, I would have given you the full smack of stars.

[Ragnarok-X]

Grumbler, if you dont mind, please send the files you mention to me via email. I would most appreciate them.

RolandTheGunslinger-at-web.de

thanks a bunch and please zip them, else the formating gets lost, somehow.

[grumbler]

Tim,

I went back through my email archives and found that I had, in fact, been working with a coupla other Users (starchild and two others who did not sign emails with user names) since you and I stopped woking on this back in [could it really be as long ago as April 2004?].

Sorry. It all kinda blended together, and so I thought you had more in hand than you did.

Ragnarok, I am sending what I have via IF, since he has set up a channel that allows large files to be more easily handled than via email. Once he Posts the files it will be easy for everyone to get to them and start tearing them apart in search of the "good nuggets" (which is what is needed).

I am excited that someone wants to finish this off. Sorry if it sounded otherwise before, I just had "lost the lockon" on where the mod really was, and we know that there are currents in hyperspace that suck us down the gravity incline once we lose the lockon.

[Ragnarok-X]

Alright, im looking forward to Fyrons next post here, then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shadow1980]

Hello All,

I am new to SE4 and this is my first post on these forums so first of all nice to see so many people love games like this. I wish I discovered SE4 many years ago because it seems to be EXACTLY what I was looking for all this time.
Oh well, to the topic:

My fiancee and I have been looking for an even longer time for a Bab5 inspired strategy game. Basically we where very enthousiastic when stumbling into this mod!
Now remind I am new to SE4 so don't take the following offensively as I might simply not know what I am talking about, but when I loaded the mod ( downloaded from: http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm ) I have been mighty dissapointed right at turn 1. I got very enthousiastic by the ship pictures and other B5 additions but when the game started (tried a few races) I just had too much resources to my liking. One of the big joys in a game like this is building up your empire yourself, and the continues "battle" over resources and planets. Here the races start with such insane resource production (and even more insane storage) that building any other planets seemed useless. On top of this the start weapons seemed a bit powerfull and the research output would make me skyrocket trough the research tree.
I hope this was not intentional as this simply takes the joy out of a good game, the original game seemed fast paced enough. Also although I have not actually gone trough and play it as this already put me off, the races seemed to have a far too massive difference from one another resource and research wise. I believe this could lead to massive unbalance in the game.
Anyways I basically didn't feel like continueing to play even tho I absolutely love B5 and have been looking for a B5 game since years.

Now apoligies to the original creators of the mod as your work is vastly appreciated, it's just a pity it was discontinued. I really love the ship &amp; race pictures and intro screen and I spent a whole day trying to get my hands on a download for this mod to see what it would be like.

To the people who just picked this mod up again:
I am very very excited about this mod and hope it will be well balanced and made in such a way that colonising other planets and struggling for resources becomes fun (and a must). Now it might be asking a lot but the original mod has a very very bad idea about what the actual races are supposed to be like in terms of racial bonuses and penalties. For example a penalty in offense for the Narn Regime would make J. Michael Straczynski (creator of Bab5) scratch his head a couple of times and wonder if people actually watched all episodes of B5. Narn are very good fighters due to years of opression by the Centauri. They are also good in covert ops, tho not even vaguely close to the Shadows or Earthforce. A better penalty for the Narn would be construction speed as their infrastructure is/should be shattered at the time.
Basically I am praying for a mod where the people making it are looking for balance (as far as u can balance such a thing that is) but also keeps an eye to the original B5 universe and tries to stay in line with the races at least.
I know balancing the races AND following the series is impossible, so it would probably be much better balancing the races and creating the differences in the tech trees instead.

Anyways enough ranting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am looking forward to see the results of the work you guys are doing and will most definitly try it out &amp; post my findings.

If I can do anything to help please let me know. I have 200 or 300 mb of free webspace on my server and about 10 GB monthly traffic left which I am happy to contribute.

Thanks for reading and apoligies for the long first post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shadow1980]

As for names I had several suggestions:
"B5: A New Beginning"
- Since this is 1: a new beginning for the mod, 2: a new beginning for the races each game. (compared to real b5)
"B5: Severed Dreams"
- For true fans the best episode ever, fans will know why the name is so apt.
"B5: The Gathering"
"A Call to Arms"

[NarfsCompIsBack]

Hello, welcome to the forum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Nothing else to say.

[Shadow1980]

Thank you kindly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[grumbler]

Okay, the emails are off (to IF and Ragnarok, as I was able to get the total size down to under a meg). The readme files have been stripped out, so it does not credit everyone, but since the readmes were part of the original package, and I didn't add/change any, the credits should still be where they should be.

Let me know if you guys do NOT get it. Gmail does not seem to like any of the email addresses I put in it.

Shadow1980,

I understand your frustration, but you need to remember that the first Version of this mod was intended pretty much as a head-to-head mod, and it didn't work so well as a human - v - AI Version. That is one of the things that we need to fix. In particular, we need to make sure the AI builds sensible planets and ships.

Welcome to the forum.

[Ragnarok-X]

grumbler,

i didnt received your email. Ill contact Fyron so he can send it to me. Anyways, if you have spare time please send it again just in case. RolandTheGunslinger @ web.de


Shadow1980,

Welcome. About your request that the races should get prober bonuses: I have recently created cultures for each race, so when creating your race you will have to choose a culture which fits you. For example, the Narn get a 5% space combat bonus when using "their" Culture, while adequate malus in ressource production. If you have further questions or suggestions, tell us/me.

[grumbler]

Ragnarok: resent (maybe resent twice!)

[Ragnarok-X]

got it, twice, with a minute difference. Ty you ! Will look at them later.

[Fyron]

File available:

Babylon 5 Mod v2 (http://www.spaceempires.net/home/modules.php?name=Downloads&amp;d_op=viewdownloaddetail s&amp;lid=437&amp;title=Babylon%205%20v2)

[Timstone]

Nice new avatar RagsX!
If you read "The reactor thread", you know the reason I haven't finished anything yet. Not even the general techs are ready... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
You can spank me when you're ready clubbering me...

I promise that I'll work this week to complete the general techs.
I've also granted Grumbler his wish; to make the damage deterioration almost zero. Weapons in space (except plasma) loses almost no power. There still is a damage deteriorationfactor, but it is very low.
Stay tooned! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[Fyron]

Timstone said:
I've also granted Grumbler his wish; to make the damage deterioration almost zero. Weapons in space (except plasma) loses almost no power. There still is a damage deteriorationfactor, but it is very low.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Timstone]

Rest assured Fyron, there is still deterioration, but it's not as much as I initially created it.
I have linked the whole system together with equations and formulae. That's one of my forté's; make useless jungles of equations and heaps of formulae no one uses.

I'll post a sample when I'm able to get to my components.txt.

[Fyron]

Stock SE4 has way too little damage attenuation.

[Timstone]

I agree, but on the other hand. In the vastness of space there is litte resistance, so litte kinetic energy is lost to friction. So only weapons based on the transfer of heat (plasma) are at a disadvantage. Maybe weapons based on gamma radiation (ion, particle, molecular) are a bit weaker too because of the background radiation. But essentially weapondamage won't deteriorate at all. But because I like making forumlae and useless equations, I invented damagedeterioration for the B5 Mod. Taadaa! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

In addition, damage is till be lost due to the armor system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Timstone]

Something a bit different.
I just DL'ed, printed and binded the Last pages of a nice heap of bonusmaterial for the B5 Wars books.
Agent One of the "Agents of Gaming" has kindly pointed me to a DL-point from which I can DL a few unpublished bonusmaterial. It's nice to have such priveliges. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Jippie! Timstone is happy, happy, happy, hahahahah. Obey my dog!

[Shadow1980]

In anticipation of something finished I am now learning the ropes of the game in a small patch I made myself. Basically I grabbed excisting 6 major races from other mods (The B5 ones) and modded them for about 20 hours to get them more "realistic" (they are not neo-standard compatible yet and the AI is a bit rusty, so no point sending them to any of you)
Also made a new intro screen just to make our game look better.
For those interested you can watch the intro screen here:
http://www.shadow1980.nl/images/Intro.bmp

The Intro screen contains the race logo's of the 6 races I use as well, basically I changed race pics from the Vorlon, Shadow's and Minbari.

Anyways this enables my fiancee and me to enjoy our game with a "B5 touch" until you guys finished the mod or until I get bored and write a mod myself.

[Timstone]

Hmm... it seems we got another Dutchy in our midst.

Wees welkom beste Nederlander en geniet van het goede gezelschap alhier.

[Ragnarok-X]

Shadow1980, any interest in working with me on the current revision ?

[Fyron]

Timstone said:
I agree, but on the other hand. In the vastness of space there is litte resistance, so litte kinetic energy is lost to friction. So only weapons based on the transfer of heat (plasma) are at a disadvantage. Maybe weapons based on gamma radiation (ion, particle, molecular) are a bit weaker too because of the background radiation. But essentially weapondamage won't deteriorate at all. But because I like making forumlae and useless equations, I invented damagedeterioration for the B5 Mod. Taadaa! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I like to see it is an abstraction representing the difficulty of hitting a critical part of the ship at long ranges. Think of it as less critical damage being done, not really less damage overall.

[Timstone]

Fyron:
Good thinking. I agree.
Too bad we can't properly simulate spreaded damage (damage that spreads out over multiple components).
Ah well, better gameplay makes up for a litte bit less realism.

[Shadow1980]

Timstone: Dank je Wel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Rag-X: Currently I have limited time irl to devote myself to such a project. On top of this I only very recently started playing SE4 and maybe played 100 turns in the stock game in total *ever*.
I feel I should first get the hang of the stock game and a feeling of the technologies before modding actual game mechanics, or talking along about them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The current changes I made are mostly visual and provide us with enough joy/entertainment for a while.

If you need help badly in something tho I will do what I can providing I have enough time for it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Shadow1980]

To anybody who knows:
I so far managed to change about any graphics I wasn't sattisfied about (from the stock game) but I just ran into a problem. I don't ask for help quickly as I prefer pratting about until i stumble upon a solution (best way to learn) but in this case I am puzzled.

I have been trying (very hard) to find out how to change the warp point graphic in the system overview to a B5 Jumpgate. I got the grapics etc this isn't much of a problem but I can't find out how to do it.
In the B5 Mod from http://www.xmission.com/~rstulce/B5Web.htm they managed to
they DID in fact managed to do it.

Could anybody please tell me how this is accomplished / where the file is located that I need to edit? Thank you very much!

[TNZ]

Find the data file SectType and change all the warp points to picture number 580. You will need to have the image mod installed. /threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_NewZeland.gif

[Fyron]

All non-system stellar objects are classified as "planets" for graphics purposes. This includes stars, asteroids, warp points, storms, etc.

[Timstone]

RagsX:
Okay, tonight I haven't got anything planned. I'll get to work on the general weapons. I'll send them to you when I'm done. Maybe I'll send them to you from my job, but they will come your way before the end of the week.
Other races will come later, but when I don't know yet. I'll send you info on how I plan to do it later this day. I have some ideas on how to do it, but I want your approval too.

[Shadow1980]

TNZ said:
Find the data file SectType and change all the warp points to picture number 580. You will need to have the image mod installed. /threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_NewZeland.gif



Thank you the filename is all I needed to know. I have no idea how I missed that, most likely overlooked it because filenames are done by number.
I will simply extract the warppoint from the image mod, put it in my folder and point the files to it.


Now a follow up question. Besides a little description in the sector under the warppoint graphic + different picture on the system map, what do the different types of warppoints do exactly? If there is a actual difference I might want to make different Versions of the B5 Jumpgates.
And even if it does nothing else then provide variety I might still do that, just for eye candy. (got some ideas, like "natural jumpgate" "constructed jumpgate" "jumpgate with ancient battledamage" etc. (Will be more descriptive of course)

[Timstone]

In stock SE IV there aren't different warppoints, but you can give them different abilities. Look at the Star Trek mod for inspiration. I don't know the right file where you can put that, I must check when I get home. But I think you'll have an answer by then from someone else.

And on a sidenote.
Almost every jumpgate was constructed by the Vorlons. They gave them to the younger races to stimulate their growth. ater on when the Centauri, Minbari and Humans went into space they constructed their own. There aren't any natural jumpgates, also when a jumpgate receives damage the chances are pretty darn high the thing won't work or just explodes. So battledamage is very unlikely.
There wereo only very few jumpgates destroyed during wars, because every race realizes the jumpgates are of great importance for the growth of their race and the commerce with the rest of the galaxy. I can recall only one incident of a jumpgate being destroyed as an act of war. I think it was during the second Narn-Centauri war (yes, the war during the B5 show), I believe the Narns destroyed one gate to stop the Centauri from advancing too fast towards them.
Also the jumpgate in the Dilgar system was destroyed, but that was due to the sun going supernova. It signaled the end of the Dilgar Invasion.

[Shadow1980]

Timstone: Actually if I recall correctly, the First Ones even before the Vorlons and the Shadows build some jumpgates to stimulate THEIR growth. Those where not required later on as both races learned to open jumpgates "on the fly". However this is so long ago that none of these can be found. (interesting including them very very rarely tho)
Anyways to the point: there are actually malfunctioning/damaged jumpgates tho i can't recall an example out of my bare head.
As for destroying of Jumpgates, if I recall correctly the first time Sheridan takes the Whitestar out they run into a Shadow Vessel which they can't handle and they blow up a Jumpgate by opening a jumppoint inside a jumpgate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I am bad with rembering names/episodes so I could be wrong here but I believe it's episode "Matters of Honor." Season Three, Episode 1.

[Shadow1980]

P.S. The Humans traded the Jump Gate technology with the Centauri.
Or more correctly, the Centauri found the Humans in pre-jump gate era, and showed the Humans how to use Jumpgates and later showed them how to make their own. All in return for worthless trinkets, as the Centauri could sell these at home for huge profits as "novelties".

[Timstone]

The Vorlons and Shadows are two First Ones. The rest are:
- Kirishiac Lords
- Walker of Sigma 957
- Torvalus
- Triad
- Mindriders
- Lorien (the only one left of his race in this galaxy, he is THE first one)

I could also give a full history, but that would require me to type quite a lot and besides it can be found in the books of B5 Wars. I'm not going to type it out, there might be difficulties concerning copyright and stuff.

You aren't very good with names... yeah right... you're giving the whole name, the season and the possible episode number. Sigh...
Now I recall that episode too. I think they just amplified the gravitic field and with that force they tore the Crab apart. Ah well, I'm too lazy to check.
Anyway, in one Version of the stellar map of B5 (in 2258) there are two jumpgates and in another Version there are three jumpgates. Maybe the other Version already took into account the destroyed jumpgate. Who knows...

Edit:
I know about the Centauri selling jumpgate tech to the Humans, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Humans are one of the few races who ever bothered constructing new gates. And that was what I meant.

[Ragnarok-X]

heh, Timstone is right. Somewhere i read the a post about the first ones history, who was first and who actually was Last of the first ones. Will haul that up later, just for the fun of it.

[Timstone]

Hehe... I've posted that in this thread. Again my omnipotent laziness strikes!
Thanks for the post RagsX!
Oh yeah, right now I'm busy with the general techs (the weapons, I mean)! Woohoo!

[Fyron]

Timstone said:
In stock SE IV there aren't different warppoints, but you can give them different abilities. Look at the Star Trek mod for inspiration. I don't know the right file where you can put that, I must check when I get home. But I think you'll have an answer by then from someone else.

Or in FQM Deluxe (http://fqm.spaceempires.net) to go straight to the source... Note that as in FQM, you can change all warp points to be "unusual" in SystemTypes.txt and allow some of them to have no ability in StellarAbilityTypes.txt to get a wide variety of pictures used for warp points on the maps.

[grumbler]

Now that the B5m2 files are available, I thought I would point out a few things and explain the reasoning. I will start with the components (les weapons, which I didn't mess with much except to give every race a fairly decent weapon for playtest purposes).

One of the first things I did was to change the balance of ship production from planet-based to space-based. This is in accordance with the way the series and JMS's short stories show ships being produced. To make up for the lack of population bonus to shipyard production, I added an additional three base shipyard components that can only be built on 1000kt bases. At their peak, this means a player can construct with 8,000 of each resource per turn. It probably will only make sense to have a few of these mega-shipyards, as even with maintenance discounts they still use a lot of maintenance, but the idea was to have these be the yards building the capital ships, while smaller ships are being built in the smaller shipyards.

Another change was to use the component enhancements to handle engines. One engine will cost roughly 10% of the ship's hull size, with the idea that the "typical" ship will have 40% of the hull devoted to engines. Reactor outputs were "tweaked" to result in a 1-1 correlation between the power needs of small, medium, large, and huge ships and reactors.

Within these parameters, "standard" speeds are:
Fission: 4
Fusion: 6
Antimatter: 9
Gravimetric: 12

The same style of engine was given to fighters (so that larger fighters don't become faster Versions of the smaller fighters, but better-armed and armored Versions at the same speed). However, I decided that fighter reactors made no sense - we continually see in the series references to the limited endurance of fighters. So, fighters have to get back to a planet or get recovered by a carrier to refuel.

Standard speeds (normal/combat) for fighters are:
Fiss 6/5
Adv Fiss 6/6
Fus 9/6
Adv Fus 9/7
Am 12/8
adv AM 12/9

I placed all of the inert armors at the end of the file so that they will appear at the far right of the components list in the ship design screen. This makes sense, because shipbuilders are going to fill in any leftover tonnage with inert armor, and the design process should go left to right.

I was playing a bit with the cost/benefit tradeoffs with crew types. Nothing here is hard and fast, other than wanting to avoid Val's overly generous maintenance reductions for non-First Ones.

The cargo modules are a compromise between Val's huge cargo sections (which drove all other design considerations for freighter-types) and the standard game's small cargo sections (which resisted damage too readily and were too easy to tuck into any type of ship). I am still not satisfied with the tradeoffs made for external cargo bays - they seem too good, for reasons I canot quite articulate.

There are some components that I don't really use anymore, but left in because I thought someone else might be able to make sense of them:

1. The IPX module was originally conceived as a way of reflecting the exploration of a ruins planet without the expense of colonization. There is nothing to prevent the sending of colonists to an IPX setllement, though, so this would be a component used only in human-human games with house rules to prevent exploitation.

2. I left in a lot of Raiders and Ancients components because taking them out seemed like too much work. They are never called for because neither Raiders nor Ancients have been added yet.

[grumbler]

Imperator Fyron said:
I like to see it is an abstraction representing the difficulty of hitting a critical part of the ship at long ranges. Think of it as less critical damage being done, not really less damage overall.

I am not really a fan of using "kinetic weapons" anyway, given that they are not part of the B5 universe,* but if we are going to use them we should rationalize them coherently, not by pretending that there is a lot of "non-critical damage" going on in the game that we just cannot see. Kinetic weapons should have very little if any degradation on damage, but plenty on "to hit" so as to make them distinctive from, say, lasers which would have the opposite (at least after the first few salvos, as debris and the like begin to gather around the target and the attacker).

*(outside, perhaps, the B5Wars books that have a number of other canonical problems as well)

[Fyron]

grumbler said:
Nothing here is hard and fast, other than wanting to avoid Val's overly generous maintenance reductions for non-First Ones.

Wasn't the idea to make the ships take a while and a lot of resources to build, but not be insanely expensive to maintain?


grumbler said:
I am not really a fan of using "kinetic weapons" anyway, given that they are not part of the B5 universe,* but if we are going to use them we should rationalize them coherently, not by pretending that there is a lot of "non-critical damage" going on in the game that we just cannot see. Kinetic weapons should have very little if any degradation on damage, but plenty on "to hit" so as to make them distinctive from, say, lasers which would have the opposite (at least after the first few salvos, as debris and the like begin to gather around the target and the attacker).

*(outside, perhaps, the B5Wars books that have a number of other canonical problems as well)

It was quite coherent and valid... another way to look at it would be a statistical representation of more shots missing at longer ranges. Combat bonuses are far, far too powerful in SE4 for them to be a very good way to try and balance weapons out... Even something as small as a 10% penalty to hit is not really a 10% penalty to hit. It often ends up being more like a 40% penalty to hit, or more, depending on the exact circumstances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[Shadow1980]

Anybody noticed.... this thread has 1722 Views and 4457 replies o_O
That is technically not possible as a thread gets a view when you reply (as you have loaded the thread to reply in the first place)

[Suicide Junkie]

grumbler said:
One of the first things I did was to change the balance of ship production from planet-based to space-based.


Since when was it really planet-based?
I don't know about the other players, but when I was playing in the PBW B5 game, at least 95% of my construction power was from BSYs.

It seems like most other people shy away from the idea, but when you have 30-50 bases over your homeworld, you can produce a hell of a lot of ships in no time.

[Fyron]

Shadow1980 said:
Anybody noticed.... this thread has 1722 Views and 4457 replies o_O
That is technically not possible as a thread gets a view when you reply (as you have loaded the thread to reply in the first place)

The forum software was upgraded several months ago. Before the upgrade, forum views were not recorded. Now, they are. Old threads, such as this one, started with 0 views after the upgrade.

[Suicide Junkie]

Imperator Fyron said:

Shadow1980 said:
Anybody noticed.... this thread has 1722 Views and 4457 replies o_O
That is technically not possible as a thread gets a view when you reply (as you have loaded the thread to reply in the first place)

The forum software was upgraded several months ago. Before the upgrade, forum views were not recorded. Now, they are. Old threads, such as this one, started with 0 views after the upgrade.


I imagine that variations on the double-posting routine would also produce more Posts than views.

Just save the link to the "reply" page, and you should be able to post without adding a view.

[Shadow1980]

Imperator Fyron said:
The forum software was upgraded several months ago. Before the upgrade, forum views were not recorded. Now, they are. Old threads, such as this one, started with 0 views after the upgrade.



That would explain it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Suicide: Double posting *can* produce this kind of effect but not on this scale, hence I wondered http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It just looked rather funny. I imagine the thread views to be somewhere above 10k in any case, this thread is very popular http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (As it should be, it's about B5 !!)

[Timstone]

RagsX:
I've finished all the general weapons. Unfortunately I've discovered I can't mail them because there is some sort of replacement of hardware going on. I haven't figured out why I still can post here and not send a mail. Strange stuff...

Oh yeah, I've pulled the weapons straight out of the latest public Version of The Mod, should I "treat" them with my weaponmaker or should I leave them as they are?
If you want me to modify them with my weaponmaker, I won't be done with them untill the end of this week. I have a few other things to attend to in the remaining days for the weekend.

[Ragnarok-X]

Tim,

would be nice if you could just first send them and still modify them the way you plan to do it. At any rate it doesnt really matter, you can send them later this week as well.


Grumbler: I took a look at the files a few days ago and found things very interesteting. For example the Unique-ship classes are something i really like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Other than that i really didnt found any totally new things. I noticed the reactors had been placed in different families, which makes sense (i did that in my Version of the mod as well, group reactors of the same size).

Just in case anyone is interested. I recently finished overhauling the sensors/ecm system. I slighty changed the effects of each "tier" and added another group called general sensors, which provide bonuses to offense AND defense, but only 50% each compared to offense- or defense-only sensors. In addition i deleted tier3, all of them now have 2 tiers, thats the reason why i added the general sensors Category.


At any rate, i thought a bit abount unique or racial components, will post them in the next post. Please quote the post and tell me what you think. Quite a few are "new", but i have used existing thoughts as well.

[Ragnarok-X]

Major Race abilites:

EA: Strong telepaths and economics, average combat
Minbari: good telepaths and ecomonics, weapons and facilites above average as well. Different castes offer different abilities
Centauri: standart telepaths, expensive ships, population can easily be influenced. Maybe good trading ability.
Narn: weak economics, strong combat ability, both in space, on ground and when boarding. Above average trading
First Ones: Superior overall, not able to colonize or capture planets. Should be played in PBW rpg-ish, do diplomatics and stuff. First Ones should NOT ally with each other or they would become impossible to beat.
Vree: Superior engines or thrusters, maybe a better science, cool antimatter weapons
Streib: better science and boarding stuff, weak trading
Pakmara: cheap ships
Gaim: cheap ships
Ipsha: expensive and strong ships, especially powerful weapons
Drazi: average ships, maybe better evasion
Hyach ?
Abbai ?





Shadow Phase Shift Generator

Add 2-4 Movement Points, +1 combat movement respecivly, more minor influence on cost and supply usage.
Should be useful on each vessel, therefor scale mounts need to be implented. Should take approximatly 10-20% of total available space.


Vree anti-gravitation thrusters

Add 1-3 combat movement, slightly enhance offense and defense bonus. Usable on every Vree vessel with the help of mounts. Costs and size usage and are not to big, maybe even make them easier to use on small vessels to show the Vree’s superior manoverability.Should take between 5-10% size.


Minbari Religous Caste Bridge

Slightly decreases maintaince and has a rather low cost compared to normal bridge. Gives a slight decrease in offense and defense. Meant to be used within civilian ships, like colonizers and transports. Cant be used on bases though.


Minbari Warrior Caste Bridge

Slighty increases maintaince and has a rather high cost compared to normal bridge. Gives a slight increase in offense and defense. Meant to be used within each warship, weiter conventional or carrier. Cant be used on bases though. Another options would be to create a weaponmount called „Warrior-Caste controlled weapon“, which increases damage and hitchance.


Gaim Crew Quarters, Bridge and Life supports

Has a good decrease in cost and maybe only takes 50% standart size. No change in ship abilites, only to show that the Gaim live in a hive and place or living circumstances are not important.


Earth Alliance Psi-Chor Bridge

Bridge to indicate the vessel is under control of the Earth allliance Psi-Chor. Majorly increases the cost of the Brdige and maybe the size. Gives a good offense bonus to show the ship is supported by several telepaths. Could even give a lvl 2 normal cloak ability to indicate that telepaths are able confuse enemy ships. There should be a quite cheap cloak-detection component for each race, which could easily.“defeat“ telepaths cloaking though.


Pakmara Crew Quarters and Life Support.

A really cheap and small crew quarter and life support component meant for pakamara species who do not care about it.


Streib Tractor Beam

A quite cheap component meant to tractor hostile ships towards the Streib ship in order to make boarding easier.


Streib Abduction Thruster

Special Streib thrusters which enable them to board hostile ships more fastly. They should give +1 or +2 combat movement OR a evasion bonus.


Streib Boarding Parties

Streib boarding parties, which are very efficient while costing the same as other species boarding parties. They are superior compared to other species boarding or defending parties and should be able to overwhelm the enemy almost always.




Shadow Organism CPU

A Master Computer for Shadows. Resembles the lifeform incorporated into a shadow vessel. Should give a slight bonus in offense and defense to show the increases capabilites when compared to standart bridges. Needs to cost a lot. Should make small vessels MORE expensive than other races ships while big vessels are more cheap. This comes due to the amount of life support and crew quarters needed for other races capital ships, while the shadow can still use just one component for the entire ship control thingy. Another idea would be to include normal bridge, lifesupport and crewquarters for the shadows as well, to allow them to construct small ships without the expensive CPU. In addition i dont think small shadow vessels like the fighter and the scout have a grown-in lifeform, since even the Battlecrab only has one.


Shadow and Vorlon organic reparation systems

Repair systems which can easily be incorporated into any ship. Small and cheap. Maybe the ability should be incorporated into special Shadow and Vorlon ship hulls, would require alot of work though. Components would be easier. Another idea would be include the repair ability into the ships Life support, or central component.


Centauri Crew Quarters

Would be quite expensive, to show that the Centauri love to life in wealth and like food and stuff. They offer no benefits.


General Race Mass Catapult

Mass Catapults are anti-planet weapons. They should deal major damage to planets and have a very long range. Unless a planet has mobile defenses it should be able to destroy a planet while staying out of WP range.
Fighters or ships or drones would be needed to defeat a siege ship. Should have a quite long reload though, 4 seems to be fine. Should be big and expensive as well. Apart from Drakh bio-viruses, the Shadow Deathcloud and the Vorlon planetdestroyer it should be the way to handle planets, at least for not-first-ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Valid target oc only planets.


Centauri Mass Catapults

Improved Version of the general mass catapults. Smaller and less expensive would be the only change.


Earth Alliance artifical-gravity generators

Some kind of component to indicate the not-so-advanced artificial gravity systems of the earth alliance. Should be able to slightly enhance combat ability or something like that. It should indicate that a starships crew is more comfortable when having
AG generators.


Earth Alliance Cobra-Bay launch systems

Cobra-Bays replace standart fighter and drone bays. They are superior, a bit smaller and less expensive, but have a slightly better launch-ability, overall they are the way to go.


Earth alliance telepath on board

A component which should indicate a certain status, which would be that a telepath is on board as well. Should cost a lot, but gives a nice bonus in offense and defense. Each major race should get a component like this, with the EA being the most effective. The Narn get some kind of „mercenary telepath on board“ which is more expensive because the narn naturally have to telepaths. Maybe there could be different telepaths, some who give combat %, and some who can analyse hostile ships from several sector range, i dont know but i like the idea.


Captains

Similar to startrek mod captains. You research stuff and get access to different grades of captains which cost nothing to put on a starship or base but have MAJOR influence on the ships combat abilites. More researching means better captains to choose from. Somewhat unrealitc, but after all ist cool to have an EA Major commanding your omega destroyer and beating the [censored] out of that lower-grade Minbari commander. Then again, how are minbari ranks called anyway ? Well who cares, they are minbari after all:

Maybe Tim can help here with his AoG books.

[Fyron]

Shadow1980 said:
Suicide: Double posting *can* produce this kind of effect but not on this scale, hence I wondered http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It just looked rather funny. I imagine the thread views to be somewhere above 10k in any case, this thread is very popular http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (As it should be, it's about B5 !!)

It is also very old and concentrated. I bet the Posts that have been made about the Star Trek Mod outweigh the ones in here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Timstone]

First let me point out that I have no plans to implement the First Ones just yet. They should be implemented when all the other races are done.
They're tricky buggers to put into The Mod.

Furthermore I would like to help making the weapons, the rest of the components are not really my cup of tea. I could give advise about it though, and with a little help of my B5W Books and the excellent support here we can go a long way.



Ragnarok-X said:
Major Race abilites:

EA: Strong telepaths and economics, average combat
Minbari: good telepaths and ecomonics, weapons and facilites above average as well. Different castes offer different abilities
Centauri: standart telepaths, expensive ships, population can easily be influenced. Maybe good trading ability.
Narn: weak economics, strong combat ability, both in space, on ground and when boarding. Above average trading
First Ones: Superior overall, not able to colonize or capture planets. Should be played in PBW rpg-ish, do diplomatics and stuff. First Ones should NOT ally with each other or they would become impossible to beat.
Vree: Superior engines or thrusters, maybe a better science, cool antimatter weapons
Streib: better science and boarding stuff, weak trading
Pakmara: cheap ships
Gaim: cheap ships
Ipsha: expensive and strong ships, especially powerful weapons
Drazi: average ships, maybe better evasion
Hyach ?
Abbai ?

I'll get back to this one. I'm planning to release every race as a module. This way we won't have to worry about all the races at once. One race at a time.


Shadow Phase Shift Generator

Add 2-4 Movement Points, +1 combat movement respecivly, more minor influence on cost and supply usage.
Should be useful on each vessel, therefor scale mounts need to be implented. Should take approximatly 10-20% of total available space.

No First Ones yet, we'll get to them in time.


Vree anti-gravitation thrusters

Add 1-3 combat movement, slightly enhance offense and defense bonus. Usable on every Vree vessel with the help of mounts. Costs and size usage and are not to big, maybe even make them easier to use on small vessels to show the Vree’s superior manoverability.Should take between 5-10% size.

Great idea. The Vree have advanced gravitic drives, the drives aren't as advanced as the ones of the Minbari though. The fighters of the Vree are NASTY to say the least.


Minbari Religous Caste Bridge

Slightly decreases maintaince and has a rather low cost compared to normal bridge. Gives a slight decrease in offense and defense. Meant to be used within civilian ships, like colonizers and transports. Cant be used on bases though.

I never liked the Minbari, but this idea sounds great. Hard to tell civi ships apart from military ships.


Minbari Warrior Caste Bridge

Slighty increases maintaince and has a rather high cost compared to normal bridge. Gives a slight increase in offense and defense. Meant to be used within each warship, weiter conventional or carrier. Cant be used on bases though. Another options would be to create a weaponmount called „Warrior-Caste controlled weapon“, which increases damage and hitchance.

Like my remark above.


Gaim Crew Quarters, Bridge and Life supports

Has a good decrease in cost and maybe only takes 50% standart size. No change in ship abilites, only to show that the Gaim live in a hive and place or living circumstances are not important.

Exactly like the Gaim would have done it. Don't forget the bulk-heads tech.


Earth Alliance Psi-Chor Bridge

Bridge to indicate the vessel is under control of the Earth allliance Psi-Chor. Majorly increases the cost of the Brdige and maybe the size. Gives a good offense bonus to show the ship is supported by several telepaths. Could even give a lvl 2 normal cloak ability to indicate that telepaths are able confuse enemy ships. There should be a quite cheap cloak-detection component for each race, which could easily.“defeat“ telepaths cloaking though.

Now that's a nice idea; different telepaths for every race. Too bad for the Narn though...
Grumbler and I decided that each race should have access to telepaths, therefore we made it a general tech.


Pakmara Crew Quarters and Life Support.

A really cheap and small crew quarter and life support component meant for pakamara species who do not care about it.

The quarters shouldn't be as small as those of the Gaim.


Streib Tractor Beam

A quite cheap component meant to tractor hostile ships towards the Streib ship in order to make boarding easier.

Done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Streib Abduction Thruster

Special Streib thrusters which enable them to board hostile ships more fastly. They should give +1 or +2 combat movement OR a evasion bonus.

Evasion bonus? What do you mean? Good idea btw.


Streib Boarding Parties

Streib boarding parties, which are very efficient while costing the same as other species boarding parties. They are superior compared to other species boarding or defending parties and should be able to overwhelm the enemy almost always.

Simulates the effect of the unconsious victims quite nicely.


Shadow Organism CPU

A Master Computer for Shadows. Resembles the lifeform incorporated into a shadow vessel. Should give a slight bonus in offense and defense to show the increases capabilites when compared to standart bridges. Needs to cost a lot. Should make small vessels MORE expensive than other races ships while big vessels are more cheap. This comes due to the amount of life support and crew quarters needed for other races capital ships, while the shadow can still use just one component for the entire ship control thingy. Another idea would be to include normal bridge, lifesupport and crewquarters for the shadows as well, to allow them to construct small ships without the expensive CPU. In addition i dont think small shadow vessels like the fighter and the scout have a grown-in lifeform, since even the Battlecrab only has one.

Already there, Shadow Living CPU.


Shadow and Vorlon organic reparation systems

Repair systems which can easily be incorporated into any ship. Small and cheap. Maybe the ability should be incorporated into special Shadow and Vorlon ship hulls, would require alot of work though. Components would be easier. Another idea would be include the repair ability into the ships Life support, or central component.

Later, my young padawan. Hahaha... I just had to say that.


Centauri Crew Quarters

Would be quite expensive, to show that the Centauri love to life in wealth and like food and stuff. They offer no benefits.

No real Centauri should leave home without his concubines, ehh... wives.


General Race Mass Catapult

Mass Catapults are anti-planet weapons. They should deal major damage to planets and have a very long range. Unless a planet has mobile defenses it should be able to destroy a planet while staying out of WP range.
Fighters or ships or drones would be needed to defeat a siege ship. Should have a quite long reload though, 4 seems to be fine. Should be big and expensive as well. Apart from Drakh bio-viruses, the Shadow Deathcloud and the Vorlon planetdestroyer it should be the way to handle planets, at least for not-first-ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Valid target oc only planets.

Already implemented. It's pretty devastating if I say so myself.


Centauri Mass Catapults

Improved Version of the general mass catapults. Smaller and less expensive would be the only change.

Hmm... maybe. I'll se how many weapons I can find for them. Should be a nice extra weapon nonetheless.


Earth Alliance artifical-gravity generators

Some kind of component to indicate the not-so-advanced artificial gravity systems of the earth alliance. Should be able to slightly enhance combat ability or something like that. It should indicate that a starships crew is more comfortable when having
AG generators.

That is not such a good idea since the AE got grav tech from the Interstellar Alliance to get them to enter the IA, the serie never told if they entered the IA (I haven't seen Excalibur). Remember the spinning section of the Omega? That created gravity in the livingquarters. I say, leave them out.


Earth Alliance Cobra-Bay launch systems

Cobra-Bays replace standart fighter and drone bays. They are superior, a bit smaller and less expensive, but have a slightly better launch-ability, overall they are the way to go.

Already there, I just don't know their advantages.


Earth alliance telepath on board

A component which should indicate a certain status, which would be that a telepath is on board as well. Should cost a lot, but gives a nice bonus in offense and defense. Each major race should get a component like this, with the EA being the most effective. The Narn get some kind of „mercenary telepath on board“ which is more expensive because the narn naturally have to telepaths. Maybe there could be different telepaths, some who give combat %, and some who can analyse hostile ships from several sector range, i dont know but i like the idea.

Look at my remark about telepaths.


Captains

Similar to startrek mod captains. You research stuff and get access to different grades of captains which cost nothing to put on a starship or base but have MAJOR influence on the ships combat abilites. More researching means better captains to choose from. Somewhat unrealitc, but after all ist cool to have an EA Major commanding your omega destroyer and beating the [censored] out of that lower-grade Minbari commander. Then again, how are minbari ranks called anyway ? Well who cares, they are minbari after all:

Hmm... nah. I like the idea, but it isn't very cannon. Well on the other hand, maybe it is very cannon. I would like to hear other opinions on this matter. Let me sleep on this for a night.

Maybe Tim can help here with his AoG books.



I hope these remarks are helpful. Expect me to work on the weapons for each race steadily. Although my graduation period is getting more and more stressful, so untill april I won't do one race in one week. Maybe one race every three weeks. Sorry, I just can't help that.
But I can and will give input whenever I'm Online and that is almost every day (about 10 hours a day).

[Suicide Junkie]

Some notes on weapons:

Quad to Quarter damage to shields will divide or multiply the effect advanced armors have against the weapon.

Shield or Armor or Both skipping weapons will all ignore the advanced armor effect.

Shields only damage will have an insignificant effect, and is basically useless.

Shield Generator only will need to be fairly high powered to have any effect, but once it hits the advanced armor HP it will quickly strip the ship of advanced armor.
You will probably want to match the damage to the advanced armor hitpoints, so there is an arms race between advanced-armor-crackers and armor invulnerable to the old crackers.

other Only-X weapons work normally.

[Ragnarok-X]

Thanks for the notes Timstone. I knew some of those ARE already implented, but i plan to redo almost everything so i just wrote up whatever was floating in my mind. About your weapons/time problem. No problem here. I still have a lot to do as well but its getting forward after all ! I will write you an email about the file you send me, but you will to wait until tomorrow.

SJ: Thanks for the hints, i guess they will help TS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Looking for more opinions, especially more suggestions to create racial thingies are welcome !

[Timstone]

SJ:
Thanks for the suggestions. If I/RagsX encounter problems, we'll post them here.

RagsX:
I've received your e-mail. I've read it, but haven't done anything yet. I'll do that tonight.
And absolutely no hard feelings, all is worth it for this mod. I'm glad you took a good look at it. And my apologies for the errors. I forgot to mention my obsolete techarea.txt.
I'll send you e-mail when I'm done at work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

Well as mentioned, it wasnt your failure. It was more mine, since i didnt send you "my" techarea file. Anyways, good work !

[Timstone]

I've taken a look at your files and tomorrow I'll write a comment on it (at work).
This evening is reserved for a potential GF. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
Keep your fingers crossed!

[grumbler]

Imperator Fyron said:
Wasn't the idea to make the ships take a while and a lot of resources to build, but not be insanely expensive to maintain?

[/b] yes, but when one doesn't need to expand resources at all to support all the ships one could want, the balance is not "insane' in the direction of expensive. I think the first Version of the mod went to far in the direction of believing that a turn really represented one tenth of a year. While the game could survive the idea, it proved too slow in testing. If you really want to spend 30 turns building a battleship, you can adjust all the values, of course.


It was quite coherent and valid... another way to look at it would be a statistical representation of more shots missing at longer ranges. Combat bonuses are far, far too powerful in SE4 for them to be a very good way to try and balance weapons out... Even something as small as a 10% penalty to hit is not really a 10% penalty to hit. It often ends up being more like a 40% penalty to hit, or more, depending on the exact circumstances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

I would accept "valid" but not "coherent." We are not talking, in actual combat representations, about "statistical representations." Shots hit or miss. They do discrete damage or not. They impact the next tactical turn or they do not. Combat in the game is mechanistic, not statistical.

I understand the desire to avoid the accumulation of unrealistic modifiers, and the point of the "point of diminishing returns" representation of armor, ECM, and sensors.

However, I don't like the representation of game effects that are frankly counter-intuitive as "subtle effects" that only make sense to the initiated.

[grumbler]

Suicide Junkie said:
Since when was it really planet-based?
I don't know about the other players, but when I was playing in the PBW B5 game, at least 95% of my construction power was from BSYs.

It seems like most other people shy away from the idea, but when you have 30-50 bases over your homeworld, you can produce a hell of a lot of ships in no time.

Yeah, but that left you with the idea that it was realistic in B5 terms to have 30-50 ships in production at a time... but that space-based yards were much less efficient than planet-based ones. Which lead to the old problem of planets being restricted artificially to one ship at a time. The space-based yards basicallt just completed "hulks" to be finalized by "modernization" upgrades. Made the whole design system suck, since the bulk of designs would be obsolete when finished.

[grumbler]

RagX,

It soundslike you have some good "racialization" ideas, and that is what has been missing in the components and facilities. I agree with Tim that you need to forget the First Ones for now. Get the basic races down pat and you will have gone a long way.

My ideas on the races, in general:

1. EA is good at diplomacy but is poor in research (witness the use of the same Sensors that failed in the EM war ten years later, plus look at the fleet that went out in Into the Fire and not that ONLY the EA ships still had rotation for gravity).

2. Minbari should be better than EA at telepathy and economics (b/c money never enters into any minbari decision-making) but ships should be much more expensive to build and maintain (after all, the whole race knew about the destruction of ONE FLIPPING SHIP!)

3. Pak'ma'ra should have cheap ships and great intel, but poor research. No one "officially" notices the Pak'ma'ra.

4. I think the Drazi would be diplomatically limited but economically advantaged.

5. The Narn semed a bit militarily hapless, but bred like rabbits.

6. The Centauri, on the other hand, should have little pop growth except under the most favorable circumstances, but plenty of bite when pushed.

[Suicide Junkie]

grumbler said:Yeah, but that left you with the idea that it was realistic in B5 terms to have 30-50 ships in production at a time... but that space-based yards were much less efficient than planet-based ones. Which lead to the old problem of planets being restricted artificially to one ship at a time. The space-based yards basicallt just completed "hulks" to be finalized by "modernization" upgrades. Made the whole design system suck, since the bulk of designs would be obsolete when finished.


Actually, I only had very minor upgrades to do by the time I finished.
Most of the time it was not worth the cost to upgrade once complete, but still nice to build new ones with the better tech.
I'd rotate ships off the front line and upgrade -A mods to -D mods and such, though. Whatever my repair capacity could handle.

PS:
The artificial restriction to one ship per turn did not factor into it. The ships I was building took about a whole turn to complete at the planet anyways, and the sum total of 50 BSY way outstrips any possible population modifiers and the larger base rate from the facility.

[TNZ]

Is there any intention of looking at the components that change size and the effects these components have on the upgrade design feature?

On ship construction, I would suggest a maximum of 20 turn for ship production by the best shipyard facility or component./threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_NewZeland.gif

[Timstone]

Okay RagsX, I've taken a look at the work so far.
It's a good idea to post the whole mod here at the forum, it isn't that big. Add a little text file with instructions and voilá!
This way everybody can say something useful about your work so far.
I'll kick off with some comments. Please don't take these comments the wrong way, I never intended to scorn your hard work and impressive effort you've put into The Mod. I only want to give constructive advise. Don't be mad with me.

1) Reactors
Why did you implement a biomatter reactor? I mean, It's okay for bio races (Vorlon, Shadow, not Giam (they aren't advanced enough)), but it isn't very in it's place for the regular techs. You might consider adding it only to the races with organic tech.
What happened to the Hyperspace Tap? Where did it go?

2) Sensors
I'm no biggie on this subject, so I'll give my oppinion, but it isn't very professional (I don't have to pretend I know all of this subject). I like the way you've split up the offensive and defensive sensors. Also the adding the general sensors is a nice touch. I haven't lookad at when they are introduced into the techtree, but I assum you first have to research all the offensive and defensive sensors and then the general sensors. A minor fix would be to make the general sensors a little bit less powerful than the fully offensive and defensive sensors.

3) Engines
I fitted a dreadnought (or dreadnaught, what is the correct spelling of it?) with as many engines as I could (the best fusion engines), but still the ships could only had 2 movement and the the imfamous flip-over pouint came, I couldn't go further than 31 engines. More than enough engines I think, but still far too slow to be of use in the game.

4) Buildings
Nice buildings, almost no complaints here. But I don't think you've fully tested that bit. There is one starting building (I think it's called the Megalopolis) and the description of that building also states it's only found on homeworlds. Unfortunately I found it nowhere. This is caused simply because the computer looks at the different functions it needs to include on a startingplanet. The Megalopolist doens't have any of those things.
I'll give a list of what the computer always tries to implement:
- Ship Yard
- Resupply Dock
- Space Dock
It searches for those things according to researchpoints. So if the computer has to chose from two buildings with the same stuff on it, it choses the one wich costed the most researchpoints.
Maybe the problem is easily solved by giving the Megalopolis one of these qualities, the best one is the resupply quality. I'll do some test with that tonight.

5) Fighters
Where are they? Haven't you implemented them yet? I also missed the fighter reactors. Or is this because of the limited stamina of the fighters?


I hope these little bits of comment help you.

[Ragnarok-X]

Reactors

Well i simply felt like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I thought there should be something between gravimetric (younger races advanced reactor) and hyperspace tapper (first ones reactors). So i hadded biomatter reactors. They are indeed ment to be used by shadows and vorlons, just that tech requirements arent done yet.


Sensors

Tech requirements are setup yet, too. But it SHOULD work in a way that you have access to general sensors. You develop them until level 3 or 4 and get access to standart offensive and defense sensors. Each one needs a different sensor tech area, and at level 6 each of them can be enhanced by a second tier, called "AI-Addon" which gives another offense or defense or both bonus.


Engines

Oh well. Firstly, Dreadnoughts come at the end of the techtree. They are DEFINITLY not meant to be used with superior fusion engines. Doing that would mean to try to load a western-gun with an ak-47 magazine.
Dreadnoughts should be used with antimatter or gravimetric engines. Those are more effective. In addition im planing to create hyperspace-jump-devices for capitalships, like i mentioned in my above post. They work like a solar-sail or warp-core and given an immediate 1,2,3 movement bonus. Capital ships should move slow anyways, i think movement 5 is quite fast for them.


Buildings

Well, the starting buildings DO work. Just not with a full tech game. I know about the requirements for homeworld facilites and set them up the right way. When using full tech though, standart research buildings and stuff are more efficient than homeworld complexes. Do a normal tech game and it WILL work.


Fighters
Not done yet, apart from Engines and reactors. They are no vehicle-sizes yet.



About your points that certain reactors, namely hyperspace tappers dont appear. I have attached an updated DATA folder to this post. Indeed you were right, a few things didnt worked due to overlapping family numbers, now they do.


p.s. About that 31-engines thingy you mentioned. I dont understand. I just created an dreadnought with 50 engines without any problem at all. Then when i went to add the 52th engine, it lost 2 movement points ??! Bug ?! Could someone explain the deal here ?!




Edit: Uploaded PROPER data files which fixes the reactor problem with hyperspace taps and families in general. In addition sensor families were corrected as well. I recommend everyone to download the new zip, its only 160 kB

[Shadow1980]

grumbler said:
My ideas on the races, in general:

1. EA is good at diplomacy but is poor in research (witness the use of the same Sensors that failed in the EM war ten years later, plus look at the fleet that went out in Into the Fire and not that ONLY the EA ships still had rotation for gravity).

2. Minbari should be better than EA at telepathy and economics (b/c money never enters into any minbari decision-making) but ships should be much more expensive to build and maintain (after all, the whole race knew about the destruction of ONE FLIPPING SHIP!)

3. Pak'ma'ra should have cheap ships and great intel, but poor research. No one "officially" notices the Pak'ma'ra.

4. I think the Drazi would be diplomatically limited but economically advantaged.

5. The Narn semed a bit militarily hapless, but bred like rabbits.

6. The Centauri, on the other hand, should have little pop growth except under the most favorable circumstances, but plenty of bite when pushed.



1 - Don't forget the Humans are a much much younger civilisation than the Minbari when it comes to Space Faring &amp; Space Combat. Tho technologically slightly inferior to the Minbari in the series, the Humans catch up really quickly.
EA should have slightly less research then the Minbari, but not much. EA's strength (in my opinion) would indeed be in the direction of Diplomacy and Trading as well as Ship Offense. Intelligence should have a slight penalty as the human's have an open democratic society which is very open for infiltration. And easely forgotten, humans seem to have a natural gift for stripping worlds dry of their resources, being very skilled miners/refiners.
Just my 2 cents tho.

2 - Minbari should be Psychic.

3 - I would agree with you on the Pakmara http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

5 - I don't agree there. Narn are very skilled warriors and very dangerous as they have a complete disregard for their own safety. I would say they are Deeply Religous + Zaelots in that perspective. I would give them a high Ship Offense bonus but a Ship Defense penalty. Not sure on the breeding, perhaps there are details on their exact biological cycle somewhere in JMS works, I haven't really looked into that. A ground combat bonus would possibly be a good idea for Narn.

6 - The Centauri should be skilled traders/merchants with a high maintenance reduction to their ships.

Just my opinions, feel very free to disagree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Timstone]

RagsX:
Hahahaha!!! You've just run into the infamous point where the one becomes a zero again. The veterens here have dubbed it a propper name which I do not know, but the effect is quite clear to me. Bleh...
Ask Pathfinder for the whole history of his solution, this NORMAL game function (it is absolutely no bug)drove him almost insane (a flare for the dramatic....).

I'm off to bed now, I'm exhausted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Injured.gif

[Fyron]

The Megalopolist doens't have any of those things.
I'll give a list of what the computer always tries to implement:
- Ship Yard
- Resupply Dock
- Space Dock
It searches for those things according to researchpoints. So if the computer has to chose from two buildings with the same stuff on it, it choses the one wich costed the most researchpoints.
Maybe the problem is easily solved by giving the Megalopolis one of these qualities, the best one is the resupply quality. I'll do some test with that tonight.

This is wrong. Like many other things, the actual selection of homeworld facilities can be found in SEIV Modding 101:

http://se4modding.spaceempires.net/ModdingTutorial.html#Chapter6


Ragnarok-X said:
p.s. About that 31-engines thingy you mentioned. I dont understand. I just created an dreadnought with 50 engines without any problem at all. Then when i went to add the 52th engine, it lost 2 movement points ??! Bug ?! Could someone explain the deal here ?!

There is a limit of 255 standard movement points that a ship can have. If you go over 255, the value resets to 0 and starts over. You will want to read the chapter on Quasi-Newtonian Propulsion:

http://se4modding.spaceempires.net/ModdingTutorial.html#QNP

[Timstone]

My dear Fyron,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I just said that too?
(About buildings on the homeworld).
Anyway, If I didn't put too clear, I still meant that.

[Fyron]

No, because you said it chose based on research points, which is wrong. It is merely tech levels and position in the file that determine what is used for the valueless abilities, and _only_ production capability for the valued abilities (well, and technology in the sense that you have to be able to build the facility for it to be a homeworld facility).

[Timstone]

In this thread I posted a message a long time ago (about a year ago) and I said the exact same thing about the buildings. Back then I didn't hear you about it, so I assumed I was right.

I was lead to this conclusion (about the buildings) because of the B5 mod. I did some simulations with different buildings and I discovered when I had two excactly the same buildings, the computer chose the one wich required more researchpoints. Maybe I pulled the wrong conclusion, because your statement can also be true.
One building higher in the researchtree also requires more researchpoints (unless you've modded it to be cheaper).

Hmm... maybe worth doing some more experiments... if I had the time.
Ah well, doesn't really matter who is right (well it does, but not tonight).
Sorry if I sound a bit angry. I'm really tired and I want to go to sleep.
Signing off for the night (it's really early here; 21:15), but I'm really tired. See ya guys!
Thanks for the pleasant conversation Fyron!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

Once in a while, do a test game with low tech start and it will work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif In the meantime, please reply to my email, especially about my deletation of your weapons (partly)

cya

[Timstone]

Sorry for not responding to your e-mail. I was content with your explanatiopn, so I didn't reply to it. Monday I'll reply to it.

[Ragnarok-X]

No big deal. Apart from that, i just made small with high tech start and made a few combat simulations. One 1100kT ship, heavily armored and 8x massive sized medium laser weapons against two fast, high defense 200 kT ships, loaded with shortrange bLast cannons and one 500kT with medium sized lasers. Was really funny. Great weapons so far. Im looking forward to see Heavy lasers and stuff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif GREAT !

[Timstone]

The weapons you've received are the only weapons every race is able to get. Every race will have his own weapons (there might be shared weapons, but that will be only a few), this to put presurre on the player to research it's racial weapons.
This week I'm very busy with two final tests, so next week will be the week when I get back to the B5 Mod again.
Have you choses a start screen yet? Maybe our resident masterartist David Gervais is willing to make one?

[Ragnarok-X]

Ill write him a message. Once again, i cant await to get my hands on heavy lasers woohoo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You you will pass your test, and get a good note !! Its most important for the future.

[Timstone]

I already have a nice title (in Dutch it is ing.), but I wanted to go for one step higher (in Dutch ir.). These Last tests are quite dificult. Today I had one, and I don't think it was very good. Ah well, doesn't matter. If I pass the next test I'll be homefree.

I can't wait untill I have the chance to get back to the weapons for the B5 Mod. I really like making weapons and figuring out all the (most of the time useless) equations.
I'll mail you as soon as I have something new for you.

[Ragnarok-X]

Well, as soon as you reply, i will send you updated files. I managed to assemble a quite cool NARN ai to play against. I wasnt sure which weapons narn use, but i decided to give their ships light and medium plasma weapons, in addition to plasma PDF. While im at it, i have a small concern. To me it seems like lasers are quite powerful. They outrange almost all non-seeker-weapons and actually deal a friggin lot of damage. At close range they become very deadly. I was thinking maybe laser should have decreased firepower in close range and they need to hold a certain range to show a good effect. What do you think ?

At any rate, could you explain why plasma weapons are so much weaker than laser weapons ?! I thought plasma and laser are almost equal, maybe a bit more firepower offset by a bit less range or something. Are laser weapons more advanced than plasma weapons, at least in the B5 universe ? In our mod it seems so, since laser require physics 2.
No critism !!
Im so excited lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyways, looking forward to hear from you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Timstone]

Thanks for waiting with the next e-mail with the updated files. I get distracted very fast by exciting things like the B5 Mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Like I said before (in an e-mail to you), I haven't put these weapons through my homemade weaponcreator. As soon as I have time, I'll put them through it and mail you the results. If there are any overpowered weapons, we sort them out later on.
Since you've been playing with the Narn, I'll make the weapons of the Narn first.
Also I'll go ahead and finish the racialtech.txt (the one with all the descriptions of the races).

[Ragnarok-X]

wonderful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Ragnarok-X]

Oh, while im at it. I came up with a few new things, racial based facilites. I can just post them here, maybe someone is interested and offers his/her opinion. Unfortunally i dont know a lot about the Narn, except they are prasing ONE god, G`Quan, while the Centauri offer more gods, like the old romans, they have gods for each sin and stuff.



Racial-specific Facilites


Earth Alliance Psy-Chor Outpost
Replaces standart intelligence centers and offers ~ 10% more intel output. In addition has a research outpot of 10% the value of intel generation

Earth Alliance Psy-Chor Center
Replaces the planet-intel-output facility and offers 10% more intel output. Increases planet-wide intel production by 20% more than standart planet-intel facility.

Earth Alliance Psy-Chor Systen Headquarters
Replaces the system-intel-output facility and offers 10% more intel output. Increases system-wide intel production by 20% more than standart system-intel facility.

Earth Alliance crew academie
Replaces standart ship and fleet training facility. Trains with the same rate but has a slightly higher cap. Does ship and fleet traning all in one.

Minbari Worker Caste Emmigration
Facility which is available from the start and increases mineral, organic, radioactive output by 6% +3%. Is made obsolete later on.

Minbari Warrior Caste Emmigration
Facility which is available early on. Increases spacecombat system-wide by 4/7/10%.

Minbari Religous Caste Emmigration
Facility which is available early on. Increases population happiness planetwide (not possible -&gt; systemwide) by 5/8/11%.

Minbari Grey Council
One on each homeworld. Generates alot of research and intel, and has several abilites to make intel and events appear less often in those homesystems. Not rebuildable at all.

Minbari An‘la-Shoc Training Grounds
Replaces standart ship and fleet training facilites. Has the same rate per turn but has higher cap. Does ship and fleet training all in one

Centauri Imperial PaLast
One on each homeworld. Generates alot of research and especially intel. It greatly increases the populations happiness. Needs to incorporate the resupply depot or space port ability in order to work ?!

Centauri Imperial Shipyard
Replaces standart construction yard. Highly efficient shipyard, work supported by slaves or war refugees, something like that. Construction output 15/25/30% higher.

Centauri Intelligence Complex
Centauri are sneaky and treacherous. They are superior at backstabbing with a bomb or a dagger. Centauri Intelligence Complexes replaces standart intel centers and generate more intel. That, or they cost less. Whatever.

[Suicide Junkie]

Ragnarok-X said:
Unfortunally i dont know a lot about the Narn, except they are prasing ONE god, G`Quan, while the Centauri offer more gods, like the old romans, they have gods for each sin and stuff.


I don't think G'Quan was a god or prophet per se; a great and wise hero of the people certainly...
However, by the end of the series the Book of G'Kar seemed to be on a similar pedestal.

I think a good earthly comparison would be Einstein, rather than Jesus, for example.

[Ragnarok-X]

Yeah, of course you are right. It soomehow was G`Quan who guided the narn someplace sometime..anyways.. More a prophet, you are definitly right.

More opinions like this, please !

[Fyron]

No not a prophet... A prophet requires that he is preaching the words of some god or another. G'quan was the leader of the Narn telepaths that managed to bring down entire Shadow vessels. He and the other telepaths, as well as all of their relatives, were annihiliated for this ability, which is why the Narns have no natural telepaths in the B5 era.

[Ragnarok-X]

Interesting. i really didnt knew that. So i suppose it wasnt shown in the series, since i own all 5 seasons. Where did you got that information from ?! Tim, can you confirm this, maybe some bit is written in the AoG`s ?!